Keni
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[Resolved] USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar? Subject has become dropouts galore! Not USB issue!
Hi Gang... Just me again tweaking the new mobile machine... I'm using a Presonus 1818VSL with an additional 8 I/o by running one of my old Soundscape A/D//D/A coverters through it via ADAT... Things are pretty good except for continual audio dropouts no matter the size of the ASIO buffer... Then I started thinking... I already know from the past that most of the Presonus gear has trouble on USB 3 so I'm thinking I can get around this (for the moment) by adjusting the value of the dropout buffer settings in aud.ini? From what I've read the dropouts happen because the engine gets starved... So I'm thinking that there might be a value for this setting that changes the performance to deal with the faster bus feed? Maybe making the buffer smaller might create a faster feed? ...or making it larger keeps it full longer? I just thought of this a little while ago and I will try tomorrow at the rehearsal room... Of course, if I can't find a way to handle this I will buy a USB 2 PCI card and that should resolve the issue, but cheap as they are, I'm really broke so I'm trying this before giving in to spend... Any thoughts or knowledge about this would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Keni
post edited by Keni - 2015/07/10 02:06:30
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scook
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 01:44:42
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☄ Helpfulby Keni 2015/06/19 02:03:35
Try tweaking the DropoutMsec in Preferences > Audio > Configuration File (aka AUD.ini). I had to set mine to 750.
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mettelus
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 01:51:11
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☄ Helpfulby Keni 2015/06/19 02:03:43
Hi Keni, I am not sure if this will help, but is something to try. I have one of the first boards to "support" USB3, but never saw anything close to USB3 on it, so haven't used them. I had several BSODs from "storport.sys" which was my "Renesas Electronics USB 3.0 Host Controller" so I went into the Device Manager and disabled these. As soon as I did this, Win7 replaced them with "Generic USB Hub"s (2.0). I have seen posts with some USB 2 devices not playing well in the sandbox with USB 3 ports, and you can try the above. Do not uninstall them, simply try disabling them (right click on the 3.0 Host controllers in the Device Manager->USB controllers section). You can Enable them again the same way later (if desired), and Windows should immediately replace them with generic 2.0 drivers upon disabling them.
post edited by mettelus - 2015/06/19 01:57:41
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 01:53:48
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scook
Try tweaking the DropoutMsec in Preferences > Audio > Configuration File (aka AUD.ini). I had to set mine to 750.
Thanks scook... I'll give it a try tomorrow... Curious...? What ASIO buffer size are you set at? Keni
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 01:57:45
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mettelus
Hi Keni, I am not sure if this will help, but is something to try. I have one of the first boards to "support" USB3, but never saw anything close to USB3 on it, so haven't used them. I had several BSODs from "storport.sys" which was my "Renesas Electronics USB 3.0 Host Controller" so I went into the Device Manager and disabled these. As soon as I did this, Win7 replaced them with "Generic USB Hub"s (2.0).
I have seen posts with some USB 2 devices not playing well in the sandbox with USB 3 ports, and you can try the above. Do not uninstall them, simply try disabling them (right click on the 3.0 Host controllers in the Device Manager->USB controllers section). You can Enable them again the same way later (if desired), and Windows should immediately replace them with generic 2.0 drivers upon disabling them.
That's a very cool discovery! Thanks mettelus! If changing the dropout value doesn't work I will try this at once! I'm sure the keyboard and mouse wouldn't care! Until we're far enough away from the heritage gear made for USB 2, this could be a very handy bit of knowledge! Keni
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scook
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 02:01:24
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Mostly 128 for tracking but I rarely record more than one track at a time. Mixing could be anywhere from 128 to 1024. I have a Presonus 44VSL. Oddly enough, on my PC the device prefers a USB3 port. While the device is similar to the 1818VSL they are not the same and the driver change logs bear this out.
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 02:16:01
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scook
Mostly 128 for tracking but I rarely record more than one track at a time. Mixing could be anywhere from 128 to 1024. I have a Presonus 44VSL. Oddly enough, on my PC the device prefers a USB3 port. While the device is similar to the 1818VSL they are not the same and the driver change logs bear this out.
I have a 22VSL on my laptop, but it's connected via USB 2 and my external mouse is on the USB 3 port... I also notice some subtle differences between the 1818 driver and the Studiolive 24x4x2 driver I use on my main DAW...
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slartabartfast
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 04:23:14
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The issue is not usually with Sonar per se but with the driver for the device. Some audio hardware does not play well with USB 3, even though the specification says that USb3 should be backward compatible with USb2. A possible workaround is to physically attach a USB 2 device to a USB 2 hub before plugging the USB 2 hub into the USB 3 socket. The best advice is to not attach a malfunctioning USB device to a USB 3 socket in the first place. If possible try the device in a dedicated USB 2 socket and test to be sure it works there.
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P-Theory
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 05:04:45
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Not that it helps but I've been using a 1818vsl for around 3 years now and I'm really not a fan, the drivers suck on it. You have to treat it with kids gloves. As per the Presonus website I found that uninstalling it and reinstalling it on a USB2 port and only using the USB lead that came with the device helped but it still isn't great and runs out of steam pretty quickly when it comes to latency. I've just tried editing the aud.ini file as per the suggestion see if that makes a big difference but I'm seriously considering swapping it for a focusrite when I get chance
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robert_e_bone
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 07:06:08
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I have had a Presonus AudioBox 1818VSL for several years now, as well, and never have issues with it - Windows 8.1 patch current, with firmware and drivers up to date.
Perhaps there is maintenance to yours that needs to be applied? (I also run mine in a USB 2 port)
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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P-Theory
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 08:23:02
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I have a very similar system to yours Bob
i7-4790K @4.00Ghz
32GB of RAM
WIndows 8.1 Pro x64 SSD hard drives and all latest windows patches and drivers etc
And also get a round trip latency reported at 9.8 ms on 128 ASIO Buffer Size. The only real differnce I can see is your record / playback buffers of 512k. How do I check what mine are as I can't see them in preferences.
Is this the bit in aud.ini you are talking about? In which case mine are 256 which could be the problem
DiskBufSize=256
DiskRecBufSize=256
I can regularly get my 1818vsl to pop and crackle even when using 2048 asio buffers during mixing, even after I've frozen any memory heavy Kontakt patches etc. Is there anything else I need to change because it drives me nuts
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 12:15:07
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slartabartfast
The issue is not usually with Sonar per se but with the driver for the device. Some audio hardware does not play well with USB 3, even though the specification says that USb3 should be backward compatible with USb2. A possible workaround is to physically attach a USB 2 device to a USB 2 hub before plugging the USB 2 hub into the USB 3 socket. The best advice is to not attach a malfunctioning USB device to a USB 3 socket in the first place. If possible try the device in a dedicated USB 2 socket and test to be sure it works there.
Thanks slartabartfast... I'm aware that this isn't an issue specific to Sonar as I've come across it many times... I'm just trying to find a way to work around it... I would immediately move it to a USB 2 port if one was available, but this nachine only has USB 3... So first I will try adjusting the dropout value, then If that doesn't work I will try forcing the port to become a USB 2 port... It might take another day though as I might not be able to get to it today... I'll post results for sure! Keni
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 12:19:16
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P-Theory
Not that it helps but I've been using a 1818vsl for around 3 years now and I'm really not a fan, the drivers suck on it. You have to treat it with kids gloves. As per the Presonus website I found that uninstalling it and reinstalling it on a USB2 port and only using the USB lead that came with the device helped but it still isn't great and runs out of steam pretty quickly when it comes to latency. I've just tried editing the aud.ini file as per the suggestion see if that makes a big difference but I'm seriously considering swapping it for a focusrite when I get chance
Thanks P-Theory... I've been running the 1818 for a year with no problems on a USB 2 port. I don't know what's causing your difficulty as its been fast and solid as a rock... I did discover difficulty running it with a very long USB cable, but other than that it's worked well on 3 different machines I migrated it to.. I've used the focusrite and it's a good gadget but if you use the FireWire version, be careful as it is touchy around wifi cards... Keni
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 12:20:36
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robert_e_bone
I have had a Presonus AudioBox 1818VSL for several years now, as well, and never have issues with it - Windows 8.1 patch current, with firmware and drivers up to date.
Perhaps there is maintenance to yours that needs to be applied? (I also run mine in a USB 2 port)
Bob Bone
Thanks Bob... I hope P-Theory can resolve his difficulty. I've found the 1818 to be very reliable... Keni
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P-Theory
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 14:29:33
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Well i changed the disk buffer as per Bob's suggestion so lets see what happens but I do run some pretty heavy sessions 100+ tracks with 2-3 plug ins per track
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/19 20:30:34
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P-Theory
Well i changed the disk buffer as per Bob's suggestion so lets see what happens but I do run some pretty heavy sessions 100+ tracks with 2-3 plug ins per track
Not surprising you run into the limitations... Though I know there are others who run projects that large, it's demanding on any system.. I've got dual quad core Xeon 3.4 (?) GHz processors and start feeling the pinch at less than 30 tracks... I do use a number of vsynths though, but still... Keni
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/20 00:48:14
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Update...
Nothing is helping.
I increased the dropout value to 750 and even to 1024... Still getting dropouts...
I tried to disable USB3 only to find two things... It could only be uninstalled, not disabled on this machine, but even more frustrating is that 4 of the six USB connectors are USB2 including the one be been using...
I disabled all anti-virus/adware software... That didn't help...
Then I disabled all Bluetooth and WLAN devices in device manager... I had already disabled all the high def audio stuff... That didn't help
I also tried changing the dropout value back to 250 with each of these variations...
Still getting dropouts! Why should this be such a problem on this machine? I've run it with no problems on two other machines... I don't get it...
Maybe the cable? What differences are ther to a standard short USB printer cable?
Stymied and ran out of available time...
Anyone think of anything else I might try? The machine is an i7 quad 3.4 with 8G RAM... Win7Pro
Thanks...
Keni
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scook
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/20 00:51:31
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/20 01:01:05
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scook
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/20 01:05:53
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There may be other software running on the laptop which is interfering with it's ability to run a DAW.
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/20 01:15:52
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scook
There may be other software running on the laptop which is interfering with it's ability to run a DAW.
This isn't a laptop... It's a Dell Inspiron 3847 desktop... I thought I had turned off all other softwares... I'll search some more tomorrow... Thanks... What does latencymon do? I'm guessing it reports latency values but anything else?
post edited by Keni - 2015/06/20 01:22:09
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scook
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/20 01:26:41
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My mistake, PC or laptop, LatencyMon may help resolve your problem. Here is a description of the tool http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon_using. There are others here more expert than I in interpreting the report generated by this tool.
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/20 11:36:35
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scook
My mistake, PC or laptop, LatencyMon may help resolve your problem. Here is a description of the tool http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon_using. There are others here more expert than I in interpreting the report generated by this tool.
Thanks scook... I will look over the info on this link ASAP... In the meantime, I thought of another possible cause/cure... Currently, there is only the one drive in this machine... The system drive... And I seem to recall solving a similar issue with other machines as soon as I installed a separate audio drive... Even a USB drive... So I will next quickly attach an external drive and see if that's where the issue lies again... Followed by installing a proper internal audio drive of course... Thanks again... Keni [edit] I just read through the latencymon page in this link and have a better understanding... Thanks again for your very informative help. I will employ this tool as well as I now see how handy it can be for tuning a DAW... [end edit]
post edited by Keni - 2015/06/20 11:53:07
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AndyDavis
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/20 11:56:42
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Keni
Update...
Maybe the cable? What differences are ther to a standard short USB printer cable?
I have a Scarlett 8i6 and when I used a generic USB cable, I got crackles all of the time. The one that Focusrite supplied had ferrite chokes like this one. Using the supplied cable made all of the difference for me.
Don't ask the question if you cannot live with the answer.
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/20 12:02:26
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AndyDavis
Keni
Update...
Maybe the cable? What differences are ther to a standard short USB printer cable?
I have a Scarlett 8i6 and when I used a generic USB cable, I got crackles all of the time. The one that Focusrite supplied had ferrite chokes like this one. Using the supplied cable made all of the difference for me.
Thanks Andy... I remembered recently reading someone posting about cables... Or it wouldn't have come to mind... As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I once tried running a very long cable with this interface and though it had the chokes, it wouldn't run... So I will check this as well.. Keni
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/20 16:45:10
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Today's update? I think I got it running but ran out of access time... My current belief is for the first time I left it in record for 20 minutes without a dropout. It needs to be test repeated as well as tested running far longer... But this took a number of things to get this far... Hmmm... I'm thinking this is getting too fa off topic for the Sonar forum as this might be considered a computer problem, not Sonar? If so I apologize... So... Definitely needed to: Run on USB2 Use separate audio drive Disable wlan card in device Manager Disable all Bluetooth everything ...and the last thing I did finally broke the ice. I found two programs loading at windows bootup for something Realtek even tho all Realtek was already disabled everywhere in Device Manager... After the 20 minute run I did manage to test switching either the wlan card or the external audio drive status and the dropouts came back... I have not yet tested the Bluetooth being re-enabled I did test turning Microsoft Essentials on and off, but I did not turn it off when the wlan card was disabled, so maybe turning it off with the wlan card disabled might allow the one drive operation, but it needs a 2nd drive regardless... So I will get that happening as I always planned to... I'll post more as updates happen... Thanks Gang! Keni [edit] BTW I forgot to download and use LatencyMon but I will next access for sure... Web was down at the rehearsal studio and I hadn't downloaded it previously...
post edited by Keni - 2015/06/20 16:53:11
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/27 19:47:10
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Still having trouble here...
It seems to run better for mixing but continues to get dropouts very quickly in record...
I ran latencymon a few times and it reports a problem for streaming audio suggesting that I check/change "cpu chokes" in control panel and in bios?
I'm not sure what this is referring to. Can anyone give me some ideas what to look for?
Thanks!
Keni
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Keni
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/30 22:44:04
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Ok...
No ideas?
I found an article describing where/how the throttle issues are to be resolved. In the advanced power settings and in the bios...
I disabled them and LatencyMon now reports that the machine can handle streaming audio without dropouts...
Too bad it's still not true... <sigh>...
Yes, it's a low powered machine. An i3 3.4 with 6G RAM... But for even a mono track with no fx, it will not stay in record... Still getting constant dropouts... I've used this interface on three other machines without a fraction this trouble...
I'm losing it with this machine...
Keni
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scook
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/30 23:00:04
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I would call tech support.
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charlyg
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Re: USB 2 Device on USB 3 with Sonar?
2015/06/30 23:01:04
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I used an i3 laptop with no issues, until I spilled water on it.
How about doing what I did?
I tried to go up AND down from what I thought the latency should be. It turned out, I needed to add to the round trip for it to work correctly. Instead of 7.8, I think it was 14.whatever... I fooled around with buffer size,sample rate, etc.
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