SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH

Page: << < ..6 Showing page 6 of 6
Author
jlgrimes
Max Output Level: -59 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1639
  • Joined: 2003/12/15 12:37:09
  • Location: Atlanta, Ga, USA
  • Status: offline
RE: SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH 2007/01/13 10:51:25 (permalink)
I tried the Edirol VSC that came with sonar three and wasn't very impressed


That's like comparing a Ferrari with a Corolla. The VSC wasn't designed for maximum sound quality.

You should describe your style of music.

Softsynths tend to be more focused to one style of music over hardware synths and you will probably need a few softsynths to match something like a triton.


The following is comparing softsynths (undeniably digital vs. digital hardware synths).

Also you need to compare several things when looking at a softsynth.

1. The D/A stage of your soundcard vs. the hardware synth (if sampling the a/d as well).
This is often overlooked. Most soundcards are designed pretty flat to cater to different styles. I can often hear more punchiness when going through the d/a converter of a fantom X.

2. The quality of the samples (overall softsynths win this one (high GB sample libraries vs. like 200MB sound roms), but many hardware synths has samples some softsynths don't focus on too much.) Also character is usually preferred over sound quality, the right performance of a 16 bit 44.1khz string hit will probably sound better than a prissy 24bit 96k hit (depending on the style of music).

3. Host Program's audio engine (things like pan laws, mixing resolution all affect the sound as well. For the most part, you should find a cleaner sound on the computer. Sometimes that is not what a person wants though). For a test make a track in Reason along, save it and rewire it into Sonar, you will probably hear a difference.

4. Quality of the programming (hardware synths had some excellent programmers, software synth programmers are starting to come out, but as an advantage many people via the web program many great softsynth sounds for free).

Softsynths I recommend:

Propellerheads Reason (wide variety of sounds, pretty close to hardware IMO.)

Cakewalk Rapture/Zt3a (great synth sounds)

Cakewalk Dimension (great instrumental sounds)

NI Komplete 4 (key programs NI Pro 53, Electric Piano, Battery, Kontakt 2, B4).



The main key in the soft arena is:

1. Learning how to program (where softsynths interfaces tends to make it easier) synths.

2. Building a good sample library (drum sounds, good strings, brass, even sampling the hardware synths if you have too).
FretWizz
Max Output Level: -82 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 418
  • Joined: 2006/06/06 00:20:01
  • Status: offline
RE: SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH 2007/01/13 16:59:17 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: ducatibruce

Don't those guitar things need cables and ports and amplifiers
and mics etc to get them into Sonar (not to mention all those
pesky strings)- wouldn't a guitar soft synth be better then


Well the K-Yairi is a nylon string acoustic ... it does have a pickup
but I rarely use it.....


TonyFlyingSquirrel
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 61
  • Joined: 2009/03/30 12:12:55
  • Location: Federal Way, Wa.
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH 2013/04/27 21:06:13 (permalink)
I have the Arturia Analog Exerience The Laboratory 49. 

It sounds wonderful for a simple, go-to, analog emphasizing software/hardware package. 

In fact, I was tracking with it today, and was really loving the Minimoog and Prophet tones I was getting, really livened up the metal guitar tracks & drumz that I layed them into.

"Bite off more than you can chew, then start chewing".

RickJP909
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 155
  • Joined: 2013/02/07 18:40:33
  • Location: London, UK
  • Status: offline
Re:SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH 2013/04/29 14:56:15 (permalink)
What a debate you've started . . . 

And I've quite a lot to say on the subject as I've access to both and use both on a regular basis.  I'll also apologise to those people who I bore to tears but hopefully, someone will find some of my ramblings useful... 

Anyway, I'm going to agree with a lot of what was said but (and if you look at my list of synths) there are some things that need clarifying.

Synths generally fall into four categories:

Original Analogue:  These use VCOs for wave generation (I unfortunately don't have any of these anymore)
Digital Analogue:  These use DCOs for wave generation (I have a number of these)
ROM Players:  These use Samples for wave generation (I have a number of these too)
Virtual Analogues:  These use a computer program to simulate the sound of an analogue synth (I have a few of these also)

And to be honest, I can't really tell them apart as they all have their own character and I can't say that one sounds worse than the other as the same patch played across them, sounds different but not worse or better so it's a matter of taste really.  The only one that I'm still not convinced of its worth yet is my EX-8000 and I always wanted one of them but the jury is still out on that synth ATM.  It's also a slightly weird one as it uses a ROM oscillator to generate the waveforms in real-time which are then filtered via analogue circuity including a VCA so it has a warmish analogue sound but I can't put my finger on what it is I'm not thrilled about. 

It's also important to realise that software synths can only fall into the last two categories; ROM Players and VAs!

I also agree that most modern computer hardware is more powerful than most synths that have been made and are being currently made.

However, there is one overriding fact in favour of a "real/hardware synth!.  As it has been designed for a sole purpose, the processor need not be as powerful as it only needs to perform a set of given instructions and that is coded from the basecode upwards whereas a computer has to multi-task and perform loads of instructions which all compete for resources and therefore this requires a more powerful processor so that argument is irrelevant really as long as the devices processor can handle everything required of it, the latest and fastest CPU would be a waste of money anyway!

Lets look back in time.  My Roland JV-2080 made in 1997 to take an example, only has a 32-bit processor running at only 20Mhz!  But it's a RISC processor and not a CISC bassed processor like Intel and AMD chips.  It means that it has a reduced instruction set so that it's more efficient than a CISC based processor and therefore doesn't need to run as fast or be as powerful as a CISC processor.

By nowadays standards, you could say that it's laughable but how many computers from 1997 do you know are still able to run and perform the same job?  Probably very few yet my JV still performs as quick as it did the day I bought it and is still able to do its original job.

Even when you compare it to modern day ROM players, it's still very powerful and capable as it can output 64-voices across 16 MIDI channels and has 5 FX sub processors that can handle all of this simultaneously.  It's fully editable as every parameter can be changed and you can even have stereo patches too!  It also has a drum sound module built in and it stills sounds as good as anything out there now because Roland used very efficient algorithms to compress those sounds back then so it needed minimal memory to store those samples as a result!  If you get bored of the inbuilt sounds, you can expand them with space for 8 expansion boards.

I think it's still a monster and stands up against most other things well enough to still use!  It also has dedicated audio circuitry which was D/A converters that were 18-bit even back then and again that's more than enough as you always end up converting downward to 16-bit for CD anyway.  As you can expand it using 8 expansion cards and a memory card, it can store close to 3000 wavwforms/samples!

These facts alone make it a monster but think inside your current computer, how much processing power you would need and space on your disk to store all of that.

My point is, as a dedicated ROM player synth, it's very powerful and efficient at what it does but anything you buy as a softsynth will consume loads of resources to match that head-to-head spec wise as it's likely you'd need to run multiple instances to achieve the same!

The other thing is note how a lot of computer-based producers spend a lot of money and time tracking down plug-ins which give their productions a more organic feel, less precise, warmer sounding, less digital, etc, etc.

Familiar words? Of course, you'll hear loads of producers mention that as guess what?  They're all trying to emulate analogue synths and analogue recording techniques because their productions are done entirely within their DAW!  How sterile and you'd be correct for saying that.  This is especially true in the Progressive House and Trance genres.

So, why would established producers like Mike Koglin (I only mention him as you can find plenty of quotes he's made online) ditch all or most of their hardware (I know he used to use a Nord Lead 2, JP-8080, Juno 106, D-50, etc) for software?  Because it's convenient, instant re-call, portability, he takes his laptop around with him so that he can work on productions all over the world.  He loved his hardware but he did it and successfully too!

Personally, I think it's a matter of choice!  I grew up salivating all-over Roland and Korg brochures (Yamaha never did it for me, especially the DX-7, sorry).  I dreamed of owning a Roland Jupiter 8, TR-909, Korg Mono/Poly, DW/EX-8000, etc and when the JP-8000 arrived, I almost passed out!!!  As a result, over the years I developed a bad case of G.A.S and as a result, the last decade I've spent re-building my home studio after moving and re-acquiring an arsenal of synth hardware again because for me, there nothing like twiddling knobs and sliders  and seeing flashing lights all over my studio.

I also frequently fall off my chair laughing when I see demonstrations of people trying to program a VST synth by only using a mouse which results in difficult movement when in fact you could use a control surface but you'd have to program that of course which is why it led me to conclude, I still like hardware thank you!

On to my last points now, I recently tried to get the same white noise sound from a bunch of VSTs as my Supernova II was producing and could I?  Well, yes but was it as lush, smooth, bodied, phat, etc?  Nah, it wasn't and I could hear the difference.

I tried the following:

PSyn II, Pentagon I, Triangle II, Superwave P8 and the Pro, MiniMogueVA and a few other free VSTs - gave up in the end.

All I was trying to do was produce a white noise sweeping sound.  Simple right?  You'd think so but it wasn't.

Therefore, I recently purchased a Novation V-Station as this is meant to be the VST version of my A-Station.  We'll see how true that is when I try the same patches on both and I'll let you know!

I've therefore concluded that if you want decent sounds, you probably need to pay for a synth that's been programmed up from the ground and not one based on the SynthEdit tools as I noticed all the free ones based on that toolkit, pretty much sounded the same.  Also, don't get me wrong as there's nothing wrong with free synths based on SynthEdit as it's a wonderful tool but all I'm saying is that while I've got those synths to produce some wonderful sounds, they do have limits to what they can do.

I'm also aware that the bundled Cakewalk synths are originally from RGC Audio and not made from SynthEdit which is why I had high hopes for those!

There is one VST that really impresses me is Lennar Digital's Sylenth 1 as the demos I've heard are indeed extremely impressive.

That's it folks, that's my essay for that topic...
post edited by RickJP909 - 2013/04/29 16:22:33

Synth Hardware Aficionado!  Moog Sub 37, Roland MKS-70/XV-5080/JV-1000/JP-8000/JP-8080/Boutique JP-08, Oberheim Matrix-1000, Korg EX-8000/MS2000B, Novation Super Bass Station/A-Station/Drum Station 2/Supernova 2, E-MU Orbit-3, Edirol UM-550/880, Lexicon MX300, Akai MPD226, Mackie ProFX22, M-Audio Delta Soundcard.  PC: AMD FX-6350, 8GB RAM, Samsung 840 EVO SSD, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit, Sonar X2a Producer/Platinum (32-bit).
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8424
  • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
  • Status: offline
Re:SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH 2013/04/29 16:19:12 (permalink)
You are aware that this thread was from 2006!   The OP hasn't been here since. Not that it matters, the topic is still valid. 

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
RickJP909
Max Output Level: -87 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 155
  • Joined: 2013/02/07 18:40:33
  • Location: London, UK
  • Status: offline
Re:SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH 2013/04/29 16:29:20 (permalink)
Yeah, I did see that but someone obviously bumped it up the top threads so I thought I'd input to it.

It's probably less of an argument now as people accept software synths as the norm but mid 00s, I think people felt quite passionate either way and there were a lot of arguments for hardware over software.

With things like Sylenth and NI Massive, I think the debate has thinned out but it is interesting to note what I said about producers seeking plug-ins that give a more analogue and warmer feel to an otherwise sterile recording due to everything  being done within the DAW...

Synth Hardware Aficionado!  Moog Sub 37, Roland MKS-70/XV-5080/JV-1000/JP-8000/JP-8080/Boutique JP-08, Oberheim Matrix-1000, Korg EX-8000/MS2000B, Novation Super Bass Station/A-Station/Drum Station 2/Supernova 2, E-MU Orbit-3, Edirol UM-550/880, Lexicon MX300, Akai MPD226, Mackie ProFX22, M-Audio Delta Soundcard.  PC: AMD FX-6350, 8GB RAM, Samsung 840 EVO SSD, Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit, Sonar X2a Producer/Platinum (32-bit).
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8424
  • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
  • Status: offline
Re:SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH 2013/04/30 11:16:55 (permalink)
I have an attention span of 1 paragraph :) 

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
TonyFlyingSquirrel
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 61
  • Joined: 2009/03/30 12:12:55
  • Location: Federal Way, Wa.
  • Status: offline
Re:SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH 2013/05/02 13:50:13 (permalink)
To me, if it sounds great and convincing on cd, then go for it.  I do love the realtime manipulation of older synths like my old favorite, the Roland Juno 106, but with the Arturia Analog Experience Laboratory 49, it's like re-living all of that again, so I find it to be quite inspiring.

"Bite off more than you can chew, then start chewing".

razor
Max Output Level: -59.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1557
  • Joined: 2004/05/10 16:53:27
  • Location: Irvine, CA
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH 2013/05/02 16:05:04 (permalink)
This may have been said already, but it really depends on the sound you want. I went from HW synths to soft synths years ago when I sold my D70 (sniffle, sniffle). The challenge with real synths if you're doing any contemporary music is keeping them sounding current. With soft synth samplers, you can keep adding new sounds forever--if you have the cash.

I recently bought NI's Massive and I have not been disappointed at all. My first challenge was not using every patch there is. As soon as I fired it up, I heard patches from current top 40 songs--and those were just the presets. 

IMHO, if you have a good quality sound card and maybe 64-bit dual precision bouncing turned on, etc. you can get just as real, warm, punchy, etc. etc. synth sounds as the HW versions--but a lot more scalable.

Stephen Davis
 
Cakewalk by Bandlab
Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit
ADK DAW - (out of business 2018)
Intel i7 4930K CPU
Core i7 SB-E MOBO
16 GB DDR3 RAM
7 TB Storage
Layla 3G SoundCard (11.5 ms Roundtrip Latency)
UAD-2 DSP
WaveLab 8 Pro 64-bit 
Sound Forge 10 Pro
DPStewart
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 15
  • Joined: 2007/11/02 16:31:44
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH 2013/05/03 04:06:02 (permalink)
Synths as good as the Hardware - ABSOLUTELY....... - I can speak directly to "MINIMONSTA" "IMPOSCAR" The "KORG ANALOG LEGACY SYNTHS" and "ARTURIA ANALOG RECREATIONS" as I owned or extensively used all of the hardware versions they are recreating from very early on. They are dead-on. --There are other new soft-synths that sound equally as "fat"... - But on addressing the original question of how well do they compare to the original hardware? The ones I've listed are effectively perfect. ... -Those developers deserve HUGE props.
post edited by DPStewart - 2013/05/03 04:08:07
TonyFlyingSquirrel
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 61
  • Joined: 2009/03/30 12:12:55
  • Location: Federal Way, Wa.
  • Status: offline
Re: RE: SOFT SYNTH VS REAL SYNTH 2013/05/03 16:00:35 (permalink)
In addition to convincing sounds that translate well to record, the issue of efficient workflow also comes to mind.

I was using a Moog Taurus pedal back in the early 90's.  It took a bit of time to warm up & therefore stay in tune consistently.  Now, I open up a track template, pull up a preset, back to work in seconds from the time the "inspiration" came and I'm putting the unit to work in the project.

This was one of the reasons I went with the Arturia package.  I can't possibly afford to acquire every single one of those famed pieces of hardware, not to mention getting them proplerly insured, maintained, and hooked up in such a way that I can access the sound quickly and manipulate them as needed in a manner that fosters an efficient workflow.

"Bite off more than you can chew, then start chewing".

Page: << < ..6 Showing page 6 of 6
Jump to:
© 2025 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1