SOLVED: Volume Differences at unity .cwp added

jshep0102
The track shows output of -0.2, in the console view the track shows-0.0, the bus shows -3.0, the master and hardware shows -6.0.

The console strips are not showing tenths of a dB that the track is because there isn't room with narrow strips, so that accounts for the -0.2 vs. 0 (not 0.0) on the track. The bus differences could be due to having a volume reduced in Offset mode. Otherwise I don't know what could cause that. Click the Offset/Envelope mode button in the Mix module to check the buses.

Any PC modules active?

I could also imagine a bus auto attenuating by a few dB since it's practically always used for summing, but I don't recall reading about this anywhere.

I have never seen that without something in the signal path causing it. 

I deleted everything but the 1 track, 2 busses and SPDIF. When I put the bus outs to prefader, the Drums bus matched the track (but that's not showing what it outputs), but the Master bus does not because it doesn't come in as hot. When I bump the trim on the master 5.4 db, it is equal. If there is nothing on a bus including automation and fader is at unity, why would it matter if I use pre or post?

I'm on Lexington. The signal only goes to the RME after the master. I use no outboard gear. The RME feeds the Central Station. The RME shows the same level as the Master bus and Hardware out meters in SPLAT.
 
I saved the project and restarted Sonar. The levels are all the same with prefader selection on Busses now - which feels very good. Oddly, when I changed the bus meters back to post, only the Drums bus level lowered, while the Master bus still output fully... Can this be a bug?
 
After save and restart:

After changing to post fader, the drums bus level lowers, yet doesn't affect the master level:

Can you post the project somewhere so we can download and test it? I mean the *.cwp file. It won't have your wav file attached, but it's easy enough to insert any wav file. This shouldn't make a difference.
 
Cheers, Peter.

Both track and bus are set to prefader and working correctly. Bus fader on drums changes when I set to post fader. All are set to peak + rms. I have to ask - if all are unity gain and unchanging in level, why would it matter which? I ask because I may not understand the inner workings. Thanks

All post fader setting drops level 6db by the time it outputs. Saved all prefader options. Restarted Sonar - project loads post fader settings.
 With all prefader settings, only Master bus is less than full output.
Here's the .cwp file. I appreciate everyone's assistance very much.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/djl8f3j4fup2adt/Audio%20Mixing%20Template.cwp?dl=0
 
 
 

I appreciate your help (and quite a few others) very much, John. You have been here for us a very long time. Kudos for a level of patience and troubleshooting I can't fathom.  
Regarding  your 1st sentence, Craig Anderton uses different range meters in his projects, I've seen him speak to metering here. As well, no one seems to be able to say why a pre or post setting would change anything if unity is 100% and levels never automate. I'm totally perplexed by that.

Thanks much for looking at that, Peter. I have scoured every last place I can think to look. I find no thing that could be causing it. Maybe I need to send it to Cake and let the masters of all things SPLAT have a go.
 
EDIT - I just did what you did, and that works. I had made my new project from blank, just added tracks and busses. I changed every meter to 42db range. saved project and restarted SPLAT. Still screwed up. If in fact the difference in meter ranges or pre/post fader at perfect unity causes this, I'd have to consider that a bit buggy. Confounded outta my ever lovin' mind.

Its not what you think. The levels are the same because you have all the faders at unity. (thats what really matters) What is different is the readout of the meters because they are using different scales. You had a scale that was not using the full range of the meter readout on the buss. Thus it seemed to be lower when it wasn't. Setting the meters to the same scale will use the same range and they will readout the same. Keep in mind that when I loaded an audio file into your project I got the same results with the same differences that you did. I then checked the scales and when I made them all the same all the meters agreed. Its confusing if you are looking at meters that are using different scales. Sonar also lets one change the ballistics too. Its best to keep everything the same and the default unless you have a very good reason to change them.  
 
From the manual page 2088
Meters. Use the submenu to specify various options for track, bus and mains meters. The submenu contains
the following options:
Track Record Meters. Show/hide track record meters.
Track Playback Meters. Show/hide track playback meters.
Bus Meters. Show/hide bus meters.
Mains Meters. Show/hide mains meters.
Reset All Meters. Clear any clipping indicators from all meters.
Record Meter Options. Meter mode (Peak, RMS, or Peak+RMS), meter range (-12 dB to -90 dB), Show
Labels, Hold Peaks, and Lock Peaks.
Track Meter Options. Meter mode (Peak, RMS, or Peak+RMS), meter location (pre fader or post fader),
meter range (-12 dB to -90 dB), Show Labels, Hold Peaks, and Lock Peaks.
Bus Meter Options. Meter mode (Peak, RMS, or Peak+RMS), meter location (pre fader, post fader, or
pre fader post effects), meter range (-12 dB to -90 dB), Show Labels, Hold Peaks, and Lock Peaks.
Mains Meter Options. Meter mode (Peak, RMS, or Peak+RMS), meter range (-12 dB to -90 dB), Hold
Peaks, and Lock Peaks.
See:
“Using the Console view” on page 2093
“The Console view interface” on page 2066
“Customizing the Console view” on page 2089
“Console view” on page 2064
Note: Additional audio meter options are available in Edit > Preferences > Customization - Audio Meters.
 
The default meter range is from 0 dB to -60 dB. To change the range, right-click on the meter and choose a new
range from the menu.

Good stuff, sir. I just revised my post above you. The metering aside, the readout of peak in each bus is different. I'm going to try what Peter suggested, resave the template to a new name, and bury this one so deep it won't register a scent to a bloodhound. Awesome sleuthing, gents. High praise for you all indeed.

Yep, all meters set the same. I don't think this is a meter scale issue (except the roundoff in narrow strips). Also, pre or post fader confuses things. I think the buses in that project are dropping the volume by nearly 3dB, almost like a volume envelope got stuck (I did add a volume envelope then delete it to check this, but it didn't help). Pre fader will therefore see a higher signal than post fader, but that's not causing the volume drop, simply either displaying it pre or post the bus volume drop.
 
Cheers, Peter.

I checked the project and found:
 
1. Drum bus has Volume set to -2.9dB in Offset mode.
2. Master bus has Input Gain set to -2.5dB in Offset mode.
 
Resetting those to 0dB solved the problem.
 
Incidentally, the Verb2 bus also has Volume at -17.8dB in Offset mode, and the Leads bus is outputting directly to Main Outs.

Good catch brundlefly - you did suggest this earlier but the OP thought there was no offset. I've never used this mode so didn't think to check. I've learnt something (again!)
 
Offset mode seems dangerous because the effects are hidden, and presumably could be set accidentally. Didn't there use to be a visual indication that an offset was set? Maybe a small + or similar? Perhaps the control could be colored differently (e.g. red) if an offset is active.
 
Cheers, Peter.