SvenArne
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SOLVED (mostly): Comping bug still not fixed?
SOLVED: This problem has a perfect workaround, just change the behaviour of the Select tool (from the dropdown menu), and editing clips inside layers seems to work just fine. Thanks to Richard Fey for the discovery. Hey guys! I haven't found much about this in the Reference Guide or SONAR 7 Power so I thought I'd run it by you! Lately I've been using SONARs layer comping feature for everything and I must say, the more I use it and work it into my fingertips, the more it does rock my recording/editing world! Logic's QuickSwipe feature impressed me a lot when a friend showed it to me a few months back, but with SONARs Mute tool and the 'exclusive' function (CTRL key), I figure I can work almost as fast! There's something I can't get my head around, though: After I've spent time and energy making a great comp track, the comping arrangement gets ruined (partly or completely) by performing the following actions: - Clicking 'Rebuild Layers' - Deleting a layer - Moving a clip from one layer to another Keep in mind that I don't slip edit the clips in the layers, I only use the Mute tool, and what I'd like and expect from this feature is for a clip to retain it's muted portions whether it is moved or an adjacent layer is deleted. Is there some logic to this that I don't understand, or is it truly a bug? Sven
post edited by SvenArne - 2009/09/24 04:56:07
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acidrock
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/02/23 07:59:59
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I would suggest bouncing your comp into it's own track.I usually do that,then archive the multiple takes in a seperate folder.
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SvenArne
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/02/23 09:39:49
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Yeah, I can do that after I've finished comping. Problem is, I like to rebuild, delete layers and move clips while I'm compiling the comp to clean up while I'm working!
Sven
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bitman
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/02/23 10:16:03
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+1000 Those things seemed very ****ed to me too. I've just learned the hard way not to do them. Here is another one. Have you ever made so many comp passes that the track you want to edit is so narrow it's impossible?  Logic hu?... Hmm
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SvenArne
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/02/23 10:20:37
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ORIGINAL: bitman
Here is another one. Have you ever made so many comp passes that the track you want to edit is so narrow it's impossible?
Hmm
Sure! But those are rare cases and there are workarounds, like moving half your layers to a second track. Sven
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Twangist
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/02/25 05:15:37
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ORIGINAL: SvenArne
ORIGINAL: bitman
Here is another one. Have you ever made so many comp passes that the track you want to edit is so narrow it's impossible?
Hmm
Sure! But those are rare cases and there are workarounds, like moving half your layers to a second track.
Sven
Have you ever made so many comp passes that the track you want to edit is so narrow it's impossible? Regrettably, yes, I have (lol). I suppose it's a "rare case" if you're working by yourself. If you're recording with others, live, not so rare. E.g. backing vocals, it's typical to run a section many times until it sounds very good. One wants to record takes, by default, rather than moan over the one that got away, especially if you the engineer are also singing/playing/... If you've recorded several passes of *more than one track*, in parallel, then good luck with moving "half the layers" to new tracks, especially if they tracks can't be dealt with independently but are linked (e.g. a dry mic on one track and a wet one using outboard fx printed... or two mics on an acoustic guitar, or electric + MIDI guitar). It gets clumsier, though it's manageable. There's a command to delete the *current* take, buried in some menu somewhere. That's ok, I suppose one could bind it to a key... It would be more useful to have commands to delete *previous* take, and delete all previous takes. (Does anyone know if Logic or PT has such commands?)
post edited by Twangist - 2008/02/29 08:18:39
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Saintom
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/02/25 07:28:33
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ORIGINAL: SvenArne
Hey guys!
I haven't found much about this in the Reference Guide or SONAR 7 Power so I thought I'd run it by you!
Lately I've been using SONARs layer comping feature for everything and I must say, the more I use it and work it into my fingertips, the more it does rock my recording/editing world! Logic's QuickSwipe feature impressed me a lot when a friend showed it to me a few months back, but with SONARs Mute tool and the 'exclusive' function (CTRL key), I figure I can work almost as fast!
There's something I can't get my head around, though: After I've spent time and energy making a great comp track, the comping arrangement gets ruined (partly or completely) by performing the following actions:
- Clicking 'Rebuild Layers'
- Deleting a layer
- Moving a clip from one layer to another
Keep in mind that I don't slip edit the clips in the layers, I only use the Mute tool, and what I'd like and expect from this feature is for a clip to retain it's muted portions whether it is moved or an adjacent layer is deleted.
Is there some logic to this that I don't understand, or is it truly a bug?
Sven
I hear ya. What I have found is to move the "comped" layer to the top(using the Shift key while moving) and use delete empty layers. Rebuild layers just doesn't work the way I want it to sometimes. But then this is my job and I have to over look these little inconveniences, out of all of the other DAW's I have used, I choose Sonar because of all of the other great things it does, and I tend not to let these little things get me down( I've got work to do  ). Ever tried take management in Digital Performer? Or better yet try and copy and paste in DP or PT, create a loop in PT, I like to Ctrl copy paste. I agree that the layers and comping needs a rethink, but there is so many other thing that work great in Sonar that these things I find a way that works for me and one of the is NEVER choose rebuild layers, organize them the way I want and then delete unused layers. HTH Tom
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mwall
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/02/25 12:50:38
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Agreed, the layers feature needs some rethinking, but here's something that might help. Once you get a clip where you want it, right click and lock the data and position for that clip.
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droddey
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/06/01 19:47:17
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I've also experienced the bug where, if you delete a clip from one layer, the muting goes away from other layers. This cost me a lot of work the other night. now I know to do all the comping and then bounce the layers I'm going to keep to one track, and then delete the unused layers. This is really an annoying one that should get fixed ASAP.
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spindlebox
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/06/01 20:02:11
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I think this is such a fantastic feature. I pretty much just use it for vocal tracks, but I find it so liberating to just lay down take after take without worrying about losing the take before; knowing that I'll be able to pick and choose. I've found my performances to be better because the stress isn't there anymore. I can relax without worrying about screwing up or hitting it just right, and I find that I'm much better as a result!
One thing I'd like to see are LARGER M & S buttons to the left!!!! Those are hard to hit with my mouse when eye fatigue is setting in.
I guess I've never messed with replacing layers; I guess I'll have to. What I've been doing is, once I get my track sounding the way I want it to, I just "Bounce to Track" and have done with it.
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CreatingNoise
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/06/01 20:59:40
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Sonar 7 Studio here. Same issue. Muting lost when getting rid of unused layers in a track. I lost some muting doing something else in that track too but don't know what it was. I just realized at some later point that some muting was missing.
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droddey
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/06/01 21:44:47
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One thing I'd like to see are LARGER M & S buttons to the left!!!! Those are hard to hit with my mouse when eye fatigue is setting in. I definitely agree with that. And also if you are slighly off, you end up hitting the divider line instead and the left panel jumps out to there instead of hitting the mutes.
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mixmkr
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/06/01 22:42:34
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As a work around, I wanted to change the colors of the Solo/mute buttons in the track layers, but I don't think you can. They are that pale yellow and green color, kinda hard to see for me. Yeah..when you hit the "rebuild layers", that layer on the bottom can sometimes jump ship to the top!.. . Bummer when you have clip envelopes like pan happening, and it gets all confusing then. I'll have to check out the "delete layers". That sounds like the plan.
post edited by mixmkr - 2008/06/01 23:03:34
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calaverasgrandes
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/06/01 22:58:41
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I do a lot of loop recording. Basically because my guitar playing is about 1/10th of my bass playing and drumming. So I end up with lots of layered takes all the time. I used to have lots of issues all the time like mentioned above. One tactic I evolved was not to take my self so seriously. Really, what posterity am I saving all these extra track layers for? I delete everything I am sure is garbage. Then I go back in and color code the remaining tracks. Dark colors for passable, brighter colors for really good. Loud colors like pink and orange for red herrings that are interesting. One thing thats cool is that as long as you still have a fraction of a layer you can easily stretch to get all the rest of the layer back. Heck I think Sonar save all the audio in the audio folder no matter how you edit. I do wish they would make selecting colors easier. When I am digging thru dozens of tracks its the only thing that keeps me sane.
post edited by calaverasgrandes - 2008/06/02 00:43:25
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HotCoollMusicGirl
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/06/01 23:49:44
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<< I do wish they would make selecting colors was easier. >>
yes.
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SvenArne
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/10/31 09:21:40
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------------------------------------------- Fast forward nine months ------------------------------------------- Hey guys! Revived this thread so I don't have to re-explain the issue (check my OP). Can anyone confirm whether or not this has been fixed in SONAR 8? If not, I don't think there's enough to compell me to take the upgrade. Sven
post edited by SvenArne - 2008/10/31 21:03:31
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CoteRotie
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/10/31 11:17:17
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Great question, Sven, I'll give it a try as soon as I can get in front of my DAW. (Unless someone beats me to it.) It would be so nice if that annoying behavior was gone....... Thanks for the reminder. John ORIGINAL: SvenArne
-------------------------------------------
Fast forward nine months
-------------------------------------------
Hey guys!
Revived this thread so I don't have to re-explain the issue (check my OP).
Can anyone confirm that this has been fixed in SONAR 8?
If not, I don't think there's enough to compell me to take the upgrade.
Sven
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SvenArne
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/10/31 20:41:38
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I really want an answer to this so I'm bumping with nothing else to say than: Sheep go to heaven, goats go to hell!
post edited by SvenArne - 2008/10/31 20:45:46
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Dave Allison
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/10/31 21:17:25
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I use the mute tool for comping all the time, and it doesn't seem to get me in much trouble,
I remember I used 'rebuild layers' several times comping a guitar track last week without causing a problem,
so I had a play with Sonar 8.0.1 to see if I could make it do what you described above.
I was not able to cause any problem by moving clips between layers, or using 'rebuild layers' 'show layers' or 'remove empty layers'
I was able to cause the problem where you loose comp info by deleting a layer, but I noticed that that only occurs when the layer you delete overlaps other layers that have been comped, so it is possible to work around by dragging or slipping the layer you want to delete until it doesn't overlap anything.
Less than ideal I agree, but not unusable...
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SvenArne
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/10/31 21:29:38
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ORIGINAL: Dave Allison
I use the mute tool for comping all the time, and it doesn't seem to get me in much trouble,
I remember I used 'rebuild layers' several times comping a guitar track last week without causing a problem,
so I had a play with Sonar 8.0.1 to see if I could make it do what you described above.
I was not able to cause any problem by moving clips between layers, or using 'rebuild layers' 'show layers' or 'remove empty layers'
I was able to cause the problem where you loose comp info by deleting a layer, but I noticed that that only occurs when the layer you delete overlaps other layers that have been comped, so it is possible to work around by dragging or slipping the layer you want to delete until it doesn't overlap anything.
Less than ideal I agree, but not unusable...
Thanks for your answer. By your post it sounds like its getting better, but I still recognize behavior that should've been corrected. Anyone else got some feedback on this? Sven
post edited by SvenArne - 2008/10/31 21:34:22
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CoteRotie
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/11/01 15:22:57
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ORIGINAL: SvenArne
Anyone else got some feedback on this?
Sven
Hi Sven, I gave it a try as well and had the exact same results that Dave did. It seems way better than before, the only bizarre behavior is losing the comping when deleting an overlapping layer. Before 8 there were all kinds of wacky things that happened when working with layers. I haven't done any extensive testing, I just recorded 5 simple layers and comped, deleted, rebuilt, and moved a few times. We'll have to see if there are any odd behaviors that eventually show up, but it definitely seems better. So you might as well have a good time, John
post edited by CoteRotie - 2008/11/01 15:28:22
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SvenArne
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/11/03 06:26:15
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ORIGINAL: CoteRotie
ORIGINAL: SvenArne
Anyone else got some feedback on this?
Sven
Hi Sven,
I gave it a try as well and had the exact same results that Dave did. It seems way better than before, the only bizarre behavior is losing the comping when deleting an overlapping layer. Before 8 there were all kinds of wacky things that happened when working with layers. I haven't done any extensive testing, I just recorded 5 simple layers and comped, deleted, rebuilt, and moved a few times. We'll have to see if there are any odd behaviors that eventually show up, but it definitely seems better.
So you might as well have a good time,
John
Good to hear that things have gotten better, John! But I'm still a bit troubled by the fact that you say 'deleting overlapping layers' still messes things up. I'd like the freedom of deleting layers at my own leisure while I'm in the middle of putting the comp together. To keep things nice and tidy, I mean... Sven
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CoteRotie
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/11/03 10:27:43
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ORIGINAL: SvenArne
ORIGINAL: CoteRotie
ORIGINAL: SvenArne
Anyone else got some feedback on this?
Sven
Hi Sven,
I gave it a try as well and had the exact same results that Dave did. It seems way better than before, the only bizarre behavior is losing the comping when deleting an overlapping layer. Before 8 there were all kinds of wacky things that happened when working with layers. I haven't done any extensive testing, I just recorded 5 simple layers and comped, deleted, rebuilt, and moved a few times. We'll have to see if there are any odd behaviors that eventually show up, but it definitely seems better.
So you might as well have a good time,
John
Good to hear that things have gotten better, John! But I'm still a bit troubled by the fact that you say 'deleting overlapping layers' still messes things up. I'd like the freedom of deleting layers at my own leisure while I'm in the middle of putting the comp together. To keep things nice and tidy, I mean...
Sven
Absolutely agreed. I think I'll fill out another bug report on this in hopes that the next update will fix it. Regards, John
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frozentundra
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/11/03 10:46:11
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ORIGINAL: SvenArne
There's something I can't get my head around, though: After I've spent time and energy making a great comp track, the comping arrangement gets ruined (partly or completely) by performing the following actions:
- Clicking 'Rebuild Layers'
- Deleting a layer
- Moving a clip from one layer to another
Sven
So, I was gonna post about the same issue I noticed in S5PE. Say for example, I want to comp 3 rhythm guitar takes on a layered track for the entirety of a song (verse, pre, chorus.....etc). Lets say comp 1 of verse 1 is the winning take overall, but comp 2 of pre-chorus 1 is the winner. According to this thread, you can't move/replace comp 2 of pre 1 with comp 1 w/o creating a format disaster on the track? I'm pretty new to the comping/layer feature in Sonar (had S3PE for a few years w/o that feature). Basically, what is the optimal way to feature the best comps throughout the track so only the best comps playback, regardless of the comps placement within the track? Any help would be much appreciated! -Joey
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bilbosblues
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/11/03 11:05:59
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great thread Sven, very interesting
-JD
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SvenArne
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/11/03 11:13:04
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ORIGINAL: bilbosblues
great thread Sven, very interesting
-JD
Yeah, I feel this issue needs some real attention. It's been like this for like four or five versions and it seems like a bug that should be easy to fix! It really makes me not bother with the comping feature when recording! Sven
post edited by SvenArne - 2008/11/03 11:19:17
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SvenArne
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2008/11/08 11:41:23
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Okay, now that the dust has finally settled some around SONAR 8, I bump this thread again. I think this issue deserves more attention, since, for me at least, it effectively renders layer comping useless. The bug should be easy enough to fix.
Sven
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twinkielk15
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2009/09/23 14:42:47
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I have all the same issues you've been talking about and I agree, it is almost enough to negate the ease of use for comping. Very frustrating. And I'm sorry to say that I didn't see any improvement in 8PE, 8.3PE, or 8.5.1PE. Someday.....
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Tom Riggs
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2009/09/23 16:31:56
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I get around this by copying the track and archive the old one before I begin.
Then if I use the mute function on a clip I use bounce to clips on it when I'm done. Be sure to have the pan law set to zero though.
This way I do not have to worry about data disappearing.
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SvenArne
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RE: Comping weirdness and me!
2009/09/23 18:35:21
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Okay, I've revisited the problem more in depth and you definitely CAN'T delete a clip from any layer once you've started muting. It doesn't matter whether the clip that you want to delete contains any muted portion, all layers are completely unmuted once you press delete.
Sven
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