Bub 
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 15:01:20
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But, VST3 does bring a lot of new things to the table.
The code has been re-written, it runs a lot more efficiently than the VST2 format ... and pretty much everything on their web site.
If VST2 can be as good as all of that, then why hasn't anyone done it?
I don't own any VST3's, so I don't have a vested interest in Sonar supporting it. But, VST3 brings so much more to the table and I want it.
Sonar does not handle VST's well to begin with. It may very well be time for a serious look at a re-write.
There's a lot of VST's and VSTi's that come with Sonar that work better and more stable in other DAW's.
I can't believe we'll sit here and start threads over how much we want color customization back, but downplay all the things that VST3 brings to the table.
I wonder if any of it's detractors have even read what it does in comparison to VST2? I'm excited and can't wait personally.
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John
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 15:09:56
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Bub there is nothing VST 3 brings to the table that VST 2,4 can't do. I have no problem with adding VST 3 support to Sonar but its simply not true its better. Different yes better no. Its also sort of funny that all these years we have been fine with the "kludge" known as VST 2.4. Also I don't see a problem with the way Sonar supports VST anyway. Its much the same in any other DAW.
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dubdisciple
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 15:19:23
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John. I think I may have worded that poorly. One of the pluses that Cakewalk has touted in recent years is the raw amount of included plugins. If many were no longer included, for those that already have older versions that would be great but they could no longer use that in marketing to new customers. It's no big deal to me personally because many of them are redundant. I can't imagine a new client running straight to launch Square upon installing X2. In addition my concern was that with a rewrite some of the plugins will no longer function. Some barely function now. I love Pentagon but the patch of death issue is no secret and not likely to get better with future updates.
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 15:38:34
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All I can say is, read Steinbergs web site regarding the new technology of VST3.
Seems to me there are a lot of improvements in both stability, resource management, and midi editing.
If all that can be done in VST2, then by all means, lets get going developers.
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scook
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 15:41:52
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Of course, all marketing literature is truthful
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bz2838
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 16:04:57
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John
Bub there is nothing VST 3 brings to the table that VST 2,4 can't do. I have no problem with adding VST 3 support to Sonar but its simply not true its better. Different yes better no. Its also sort of funny that all these years we have been fine with the "kludge" known as VST 2.4. Also I don't see a problem with the way Sonar supports VST anyway. Its much the same in any other DAW.
Cannot side chain waves plugins without VST3
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Marcus Curtis
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 16:04:59
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dubdisciple
I think the next re-write of Sonar is going to spell the end of several popular legacy included products, thus reducing the perceived value when they list all the instruments and effects. Right now a good chunk of the effects and instruments are Dxi's and 32-bit. I suspect keeping these legacy things around ads a layer of complexity when it comes to moving forward. They already gave up on Beatscape and The Pentagon bug is ignored. I only say this because my guess is there will be some weeping when that update that brings VST3 also signals the death of the old. I have no problem with that since change is inevitable.
Bub
dubdisciple
I think the next re-write of Sonar is going to spell the end of several popular legacy included products, thus reducing the perceived value when they list all the instruments and effects.
Yeah, a lot of people have complained that they don't include Lexicon Reverb any more.
I noticed that Studio one has VST 2 and VST 3 listed in their specs. Why would they need both? Apparently they can coexist. I installed beatscape from my X1 CDs just to get the content. I think the Matrix view is the thing that replaces Beatscape. I think it works better than Beatscape. It may very well be that lexicon is not included anymore due to a license issue not a software issue. We don't know why it is not included. That may be the reason they switched to Breverb. For that matter why did they switched from GR4 to TH2. Personally I don't miss the lexicon reverb and if I need it I can install it at any time.
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scook
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 16:12:50
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The Beatscape content is included in the X2 Producer Loops and One-Shots. There is no need to install Beatscape from X1 or before to get the Beatscape content if you have X2 Producer.
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Marcus Curtis
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 16:16:23
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scook
The Beatscape content is included in the X2 Producer Loops and One-Shots. There is no need to install Beatscape from X1 or before to get the Beatscape content if you have X2 Producer.
Thanks Scook. I was not sure if it had the content. I need some time to play with this stuff.
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John
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 16:25:45
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bz2838
John
Bub there is nothing VST 3 brings to the table that VST 2,4 can't do. I have no problem with adding VST 3 support to Sonar but its simply not true its better. Different yes better no. Its also sort of funny that all these years we have been fine with the "kludge" known as VST 2.4. Also I don't see a problem with the way Sonar supports VST anyway. Its much the same in any other DAW.
Cannot side chain waves plugins without VST3
I don't know how that is a VST 3 ability when we already have VST 2.4 plugins with sidechaining. If Waves chooses to use VST 3 to have this ability that is on them.
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Swiller
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 16:53:21
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Bringing new things to the table is one thing. Does it sound any better is another.
I cannot understand it either, what is all the fuss about with vst3. Why is it essential technology to make better sounds. It was unveiled in 2006 and computer power has more than made up for any speed problems in 7 years.
Cake are better focussing on other things, until the technology shows a softsynth or plugin that sounds obviously better than before. 7 years on and I haven't seen one.
Spending another £500 on a vst3 compatible daw is nothing short of madness. A bit of ram and an ssd will do way more these days and much much cheaper.
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dubdisciple
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 17:03:50
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beatscape and the matrix view are nothing alike.One is simply a matrix style sequencer and the other was an instrument that was loosely (and i mean very loosely) based on an MPC style sampler but more loop centered. Beatscape was discontinued because it was a buggy 32-bit program that seemed play worse and worse with 64-bit. It was owned by Cakewalk so they could have kept it. The lexicon and GR absences are simple matters of expiring license agreements that were not renewed.
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 17:45:30
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Marcus Curtis
dubdisciple
I think the next re-write of Sonar is going to spell the end of several popular legacy included products, thus reducing the perceived value when they list all the instruments and effects. Right now a good chunk of the effects and instruments are Dxi's and 32-bit. I suspect keeping these legacy things around ads a layer of complexity when it comes to moving forward. They already gave up on Beatscape and The Pentagon bug is ignored. I only say this because my guess is there will be some weeping when that update that brings VST3 also signals the death of the old. I have no problem with that since change is inevitable.
Bub
dubdisciple
I think the next re-write of Sonar is going to spell the end of several popular legacy included products, thus reducing the perceived value when they list all the instruments and effects.
Yeah, a lot of people have complained that they don't include Lexicon Reverb any more.
I noticed that Studio one has VST 2 and VST 3 listed in their specs. Why would they need both? Apparently they can coexist. Wow. Imagine the licensing fees to have both eh? If a small time operation like them can afford do it ... I'm pretty sure Cakewalk should be able to. Or maybe not? I don't know. Maybe they listed it that way to avoid confusion as to whether or not a non-VST3 plug-in would work. I installed beatscape from my X1 CDs just to get the content. I think the Matrix view is the thing that replaces Beatscape. I think it works better than Beatscape. It may very well be that lexicon is not included anymore due to a license issue not a software issue. We don't know why it is not included. That may be the reason they switched to Breverb. For that matter why did they switched from GR4 to TH2. Personally I don't miss the lexicon reverb and if I need it I can install it at any time.
I guess they figure if you really want the VST's they previously offered, you'll install them from you DVD's or downloads. Which, spanning multiple generational changes, can be a very time consuming thing. What I'm wondering is, how did they develop and test the new CA-2A Comp. It's VST3 compatible. Did they test it in Studio One? LOL
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Marcus Curtis
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 17:49:57
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bub
What I'm wondering is, how did they develop and test the new CA-2A Comp. It's VST3 compatible. Did they test it in Studio One? LOL
Now that.....is a good question.
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 17:54:33
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Swiller
Bringing new things to the table is one thing. Does it sound any better is another.
Yes, but sound isn't everything. So is stability, system resource usage. Those things are just as important. I cannot understand it either, what is all the fuss about with vst3. Why is it essential technology to make better sounds. It was unveiled in 2006 and computer power has more than made up for any speed problems in 7 years.
Cake are better focussing on other things, until the technology shows a softsynth or plugin that sounds obviously better than before. 7 years on and I haven't seen one.
Spending another £500 on a vst3 compatible daw is nothing short of madness. A bit of ram and an ssd will do way more these days and much much cheaper.
Where on Earth did you come up with 500? Everyone that offers it doesn't charge a penny more for it. Studio One is the same price it was before they included VST3. Like it or not, developers are starting to use it. For God sake, Cakewalk themselves just put out a VST3 plug-in. How can anyone even argue about this anymore when they themselves are doing it? All arguments aside ... developers are using it now. Cakewalk better implement it ... soon. And right or wrong, some of them are limiting the functionality of their VST's if you don't use them in a VST3 host, so again ... like it or not, they better get moving.
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DigitalBoston
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 18:10:29
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Bub
CakeAlexS
Why do we need this right now? Is it because "3" sounds better than "2"?
> The issue is if their position with respect to adding it to the DAW is it is not necessary then why did they implement it in a plug?
Sorry that's not a real world issue. Chicken and egg arguments are just paperwork not an actual reason.
Quote from Steinberg's web site.
"With VST (Virtual Studio Technology), Steinberg established the world’s leading and most widely supported standard for plug-ins and virtual instruments in 1996. With VST3 Steinberg releases the next major revision of Steinberg’s Virtual Studio Technology to the audio industry. VST3 marks an important milestone in audio technology with a completely rewritten code base providing not only many new features but also the most stable and reliable VST platform ever. This combination of latest technology and new features is the result of Steinberg’s twelve years of development experience as the leading plug-in interface provider. VST3 has been designed to provide a technological and creative basis for many innovative and exciting new products for the audio industry, offering a new world of creative possibilities for instrument and effect plug-in users. The VST3 SDK is available as a free technology, open in use for any developer"
Heaven forbid we should want any of that.
New code, more stability, more reliability, more features, more creative possibilities, it's FREE to developers.
Yeah, I can understand why Cakewalk hates it.
if it would end the bit bridge issues cake would be all over it, you would think. unless its compleatly new code and cake would have to buy into it, it should be a no brAiner
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stevec
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 18:17:16
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if it would end the bit bridge issues cake would be all over it, you would think. Nah, that's 64bit vs. 32bit. VST3 is a lateral change; i.e., you could bave a 32bit VST3 plugin that still requires bitbridge (or jbridge), or a 64bit VST2.4 plugin that does not.
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stevec
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 18:26:32
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I don't know how that is a VST 3 ability when we already have VST 2.4 plugins with sidechaining. If Waves chooses to use VST 3 to have this ability that is on them. Personally, I think incorporating VST3 simply comes down to a business/marketing move more so than pure technology. Major players (like Waves) who've already made the decision to lock into VST3 make it difficult to do anything else, regardless of what can technically be accomplished using VST 2.4.
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dubdisciple
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 19:21:51
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+1 to what Steve said. Just the fact that there is a 3 makes marketing 2.4 more difficult. No product lists "VST 2.4 compatible" as a major feature. The VST3 thing does not really bug me aside for the minor annoyance of not being able to use a plugin i wanted to test within Sonar. With that said, I think Sonar should just do it. Enough people do care and more than one salesman has told me it was important...although only one gave me a reason why. I ask why when presented those things, but a lot of people walking into a store don't. My son and I were at a pro tools class at Guitar center and the instructor made it clear that "in order to side chain you need VST3". I suppressed to tell him he was technically wrong because it would have just confused everyone else there more.
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Mystic38
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 19:23:51
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the role of a DAW is to allow us, the user, aka the paying customer, to use the synths, tools and plug-ins that WE choose, it is not the role of a DAW vendor to control what plugins we may be allowed to use.
It matters not who is right/wrong on the technical level.. i do not know, and i do not care one bit if VST2.4 can do everything that VST3 can when i am looking at a piece of software for a $2200 synth that only runs as VST3, or similarly, other users that cannot fully exploit a $1000 VST package without VST3 support.
as more companies support VST3 the cheaper option for many users will be to switch DAW, or at least not upgrade, and Cakewalk needs to mark their timing of VST3 support very carefully.
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dubdisciple
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 19:25:17
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It also doesn't look good that Adobe Audition, the same Adobe audition that has only recently made any major changes from it's Cool Edit days even supports VST3 now . Audition VST support has always been crap. if they can do it, so can Cakewalk
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Splat
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 20:59:15
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Nope business folks don't understand technology. It really isn't that hard to understand how a business works. It is however extremely hard to understand technology fully. Requires a lot of time and effort. Do you honestly think technologists don't understand what needs and requirements are? They spend their whole life listening to people moaning on and on at people who think they know better.
IT people have actually been trained in business information systems for quite some time now. They understand business. Sadly a lot of business people think it is not down to them to understand the world of IT. Merely it is their job to issue the demands, stand back and when IT can't deliver say they are too nerdy for the real world. Sorry but that is total and utter bollocks. Every IT person knows the customer is king, but they also know the customer does not know the difference between a paper plane and a jet airline. Before you issue demands you have to understand the full picture inside and out.
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Splat
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 21:23:20
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PS rant over. The point was to state the technical level matters hugely. It might not to the customer but when it comes to making the bloody product it is pretty much everything. I feel better now.
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soens
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 21:51:35
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I don't usually join in on such fun and productive threads like this, but I thought to myself:
How do we know Cakewalk isn't, right now, working hard to implement this (and other improvements) into the next version?
Most of us users have no real clue what this would entail since we're not programmers.
And as it's often been said, if there's a "must have" feature Sonar doesn't have, then use the one that has it.
.
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John
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/13 22:40:18
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CakeAlexS
Nope business folks don't understand technology. It really isn't that hard to understand how a business works. It is however extremely hard to understand technology fully. Requires a lot of time and effort. Do you honestly think technologists don't understand what needs and requirements are? They spend their whole life listening to people moaning on and on at people who think they know better.
IT people have actually been trained in business information systems for quite some time now. They understand business. Sadly a lot of business people think it is not down to them to understand the world of IT. Merely it is their job to issue the demands, stand back and when IT can't deliver say they are too nerdy for the real world. Sorry but that is total and utter bollocks. Every IT person knows the customer is king, but they also know the customer does not know the difference between a paper plane and a jet airline. Before you issue demands you have to understand the full picture inside and out.
I wish I understood what that was all about.
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/14 00:45:01
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John
CakeAlexS
Nope business folks don't understand technology. It really isn't that hard to understand how a business works. It is however extremely hard to understand technology fully. Requires a lot of time and effort. Do you honestly think technologists don't understand what needs and requirements are? They spend their whole life listening to people moaning on and on at people who think they know better.
IT people have actually been trained in business information systems for quite some time now. They understand business. Sadly a lot of business people think it is not down to them to understand the world of IT. Merely it is their job to issue the demands, stand back and when IT can't deliver say they are too nerdy for the real world. Sorry but that is total and utter bollocks. Every IT person knows the customer is king, but they also know the customer does not know the difference between a paper plane and a jet airline. Before you issue demands you have to understand the full picture inside and out.
I wish I understood what that was all about.
So does Alex. LOL!
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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bapu
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/14 00:51:07
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John
If Waves chooses to use VST 3 to have this ability that is on them.
But if you are a Waves owner and you want side chaining in a WAVES plug that is ONLY available thru VST 3 while using SONAR, will Waves make changes for "us" since other DAWs support VST3? I think not. Sorry John but that is truly a laughable argument for those that want Waves VST3 side chaining in SONAR. JMO.
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John
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/14 01:19:50
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bapu
John
If Waves chooses to use VST 3 to have this ability that is on them.
But if you are a Waves owner and you want side chaining in a WAVES plug that is ONLY available thru VST 3 while using SONAR, will Waves make changes for "us" since other DAWs support VST3? I think not.
Sorry John but that is truly a laughable argument for those that want Waves VST3 side chaining in SONAR.
JMO.
Of course that is self evident. But they didn't have to do that either. There is no reason to use VST 3 for a feature that can be done with VST 2.4. And again I have no problem with CW adding VST 3 support. I'm in no rush that does not mean I don't want my fellow members to get it as soon as possible.
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dcumpian
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/14 08:18:09
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The bakers are busy on Sonar X3, which will have VST3, custom colors and a whole new staff view! Yay!
We'll have to find something new to argue about then. I'm voting for the shape of the buttons...
Regards,
Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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stxx
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/14 09:41:01
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The answer is simple why Cakewalk added VST 3 to the Ca2a - to make money and sell it as a 3rd party vendor to other DAW users on it's own merits! The fact that Cakewalk doesn't support may appear slightly hypocritical but these plugins allow side chain in Sonar so CW still really doesn't feel the need to implement it and destabilize a very stable platform. Agreed however that new technologies should be embraced early in their cycle and incorporated. I still use vocal rider and although many people seem to think it is nt useful without side-chaining it to the whole mix, it works very well to level the vocals out in relation to itself.
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