mcanicos
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SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
As we all know, sonar 2 has not implemented VST3 technology in its latest version.
But,how is possible cakewalk Compressor AC-2a T-type is VST3 compatible?
Is this perhaps a joke????
Many users are asking for the update to VST3 since a couple of years, and the answer was always: this update is not necessary
and now their new plugins if they meet the VST3 standard.
I like the cakewalk software, but honestly, I do not like or understand this type of action.
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scook
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 06:57:59
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What is the issue? They have a few plugins that support VST3 and have yet to rewrite the DAW to support VST3 plugins. How are the two equivalent? I guess it is time for another VST3 thread.
post edited by scook - 2013/02/12 07:09:28
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rabeach
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 08:31:40
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scook
What is the issue? They have a few plugins that support VST3 and have yet to rewrite the DAW to support VST3 plugins. How are the two equivalent? I guess it is time for another VST3 thread.
The issue is if their position with respect to adding it to the DAW is it is not necessary then why did they implement it in a plug?
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scook
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 08:41:47
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They have said they have plans to implement VST3 in SONAR but other issues have priority. Are you suggesting they should not release a VST3 version of their plugins?
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cclarry
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 09:45:34
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There are 2 MAIN reasons WHY Cake hasn't implemented VST 3.
ONE
The cost of re-writing the entire program for VST 3 Support,
which, BTW, should have been done several years ago...
TWO
They don't like STEINBERG - and, as always, their "desire" to show this is
expressed in the failure to implement new standards, because STEINBERG develops them...
That being said, there have been NUMEROUS freds in regards to this...
The BOTTON LINE.....THEY DON"T really want to do it...
BUT....with EVERYTHING and EVERYONE now supporting VST 3...as ALWAYS
Cakewalk will be dragged, kicking and screaming like a child, into
implementing it....I've stated this FOR YEARS....and they ALWAYS end
up doing it...because they HAVE TO...NOT because they WANT to....
It happened with VST
It happened with VST3..
It WILL happen with VST 4 etc...etc...ad nauseum...
Some companies just can't see the FOREST for the TREES...
and instead of implementing NEW technologies EARLY that people NEED...
they instead OPT to implement things like TOUCH, which, while being kewl and
all, really is NOT at this point NECESSARY, as the price of Touch Screen monitors
and such is still cost prohibitive for most....AND they don't make the TOUCH option
even an OPTION...if you install X2a....YOU GET TOUCH...and ALL that goes with it...
EVEN though YOU may NEVER use it...and even though ALL that goes with it
may HURT your DAW performance....rather then help it...
Anyways...that is that...in a nutshell
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Splat 
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 09:54:02
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Why do we need this right now? Is it because "3" sounds better than "2"?
> The issue is if their position with respect to adding it to the DAW is it is not necessary then why did they implement it in a plug?
Sorry that's not a real world issue. Chicken and egg arguments are just paperwork not an actual reason.
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 10:23:27
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CakeAlexS
Why do we need this right now? Is it because "3" sounds better than "2"?
> The issue is if their position with respect to adding it to the DAW is it is not necessary then why did they implement it in a plug?
Sorry that's not a real world issue. Chicken and egg arguments are just paperwork not an actual reason.
Quote from Steinberg's web site. "With VST (Virtual Studio Technology), Steinberg established the world’s leading and most widely supported standard for plug-ins and virtual instruments in 1996. With VST3 Steinberg releases the next major revision of Steinberg’s Virtual Studio Technology to the audio industry. VST3 marks an important milestone in audio technology with a completely rewritten code base providing not only many new features but also the most stable and reliable VST platform ever. This combination of latest technology and new features is the result of Steinberg’s twelve years of development experience as the leading plug-in interface provider. VST3 has been designed to provide a technological and creative basis for many innovative and exciting new products for the audio industry, offering a new world of creative possibilities for instrument and effect plug-in users. The VST3 SDK is available as a free technology, open in use for any developer"
Heaven forbid we should want any of that.
New code, more stability, more reliability, more features, more creative possibilities, it's FREE to developers.
Yeah, I can understand why Cakewalk hates it.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 10:25:12
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This is a HUGE benefit ... "Managing large plug-in sets and multiple virtual instruments on typical studio computer systems can often be difficult because of CPU performance limits. VST3 helps to improve overall performance by applying processing to plug-ins only when audio signals are present on their respective inputs. Instead of always processing input signals, VST3 plug-ins can apply their processing economically and only when it is needed."
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 10:27:17
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Well ... here ... Read for yourself. There isn't a single thing in the VST3 format that isn't a huge improvement.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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rabeach
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 11:38:32
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Sorry that's not a real world issue. Chicken and egg arguments are just paperwork not an actual reason. I don't know what that means.
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JClosed
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 12:01:10
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Oh - there we go again.. Is it that time of year already? I am sure Cakwalk already knows it is wanted, so (other than do a feature request) making a lot of noise will not help any bit. Even the brand new -not yet released- Live 9 has NO VST3 support. The reason is simple - it's software patented, so other DAW developers probably have to pay for it to use it. Yes, there is a SDK, but (as far as I know) that's only for developing plugins and not for incorporating anything into a DAW. But - I could be wrong here. Anyway - Cakewalk has said several times again and again VST3 would be implemented in the near future (probably after finishing negotiations with Steinberg about it). Ableton said the same thing. So - I guess we just have to be patient...
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stevec
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 12:14:22
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I have to say I'm with scook on this one - coding an updated plugin to conform to VST3 just isn't in the same ballpark as modifying a host to do the same. Not to mention the QA time needed to test, retest and then retest again. And with all the **** about "stability" recently, would anyone really want something as fundamental as a plug-in format change to be rushed for any reason? Oh... And of course another VST3 thread aint gonna make it happen any faster.  PS... Although I have no dire need for VST3 myself, I do look forward to it for the enhancements that Bub mentioned. I'm all for making things better, even if it's incremental.
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WDI
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 12:31:25
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Bub
This is a HUGE benefit ...
"Managing large plug-in sets and multiple virtual instruments on typical studio computer systems can often be difficult because of CPU performance limits. VST3 helps to improve overall performance by applying processing to plug-ins only when audio signals are present on their respective inputs. Instead of always processing input signals, VST3 plug-ins can apply their processing economically and only when it is needed."
I quoted the same passage in another tread about vst3 quite a while ago. I was told by Noel that this has already been implemented in sonar since the beginning of time even with dxi and vst3 offers nothing new in these regards. Maybe it's my misunderstanding, but it sounds like the passage is saying vst3 only uses CPU when a clip is present. To me that is a huge benefit. The way sonar has always appeared to work for me is once a plugin is placed in the effects bin or clip bin it continuously utilizes CPU whether a clip is present or not. Even before vst3 this is a feature I've often wrote about on these forums that would be great in sonar. For instance, in SAWstudio you can automate plugin bypass to turn off CPU processing for the plugin. So for instsnce you have a very short clip you want delay on, the plugin doesn't need to utilize cpu the whole song.
Sonar 7 PE Windows XP Pofessional (SP3) MSI K8N Neo4-F AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 2 GB PC 3200 Ram RME Fireface 800 Edirol FA-66 CM Labs MotorMix Old stuff: ARJO
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 13:13:19
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WDI
Bub
This is a HUGE benefit ...
... VST3 helps to improve overall performance by applying processing to plug-ins only when audio signals are present on their respective inputs. Instead of always processing input signals, VST3 plug-ins can apply their processing economically and only when it is needed."
I quoted the same passage in another tread about vst3 quite a while ago. I was told by Noel that this has already been implemented in sonar since the beginning of time even with dxi and vst3 offers nothing new in these regards.
So for instsnce you have a very short clip you want delay on, the plugin doesn't need to utilize cpu the whole song.
That's how I read it too. For example, if I throw Guitar Rig 4 on a track, my CPU usage shoots up whether there's any wav data there or not ... it's always running. If I'm reading the above quote right, if Guitar Rig 4 was a VST3, it would only be enabled and using system resources when an audio was present ... That's not how it works now.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Splat
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 13:48:37
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Chicken and egg argument: just because Y happened before X doesn't mean it is wrong. Yup CPU saving is always a good idea but also brings an extra set of complications. That doesn't make it a bad thing though... Things move on. I certainly would wait for a pack after this got released. Cake would be wise to wait till X3 for this, looks like it is their intention anyway.
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Beepster
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 14:57:40
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The way sonar has always appeared to work for me is once a plugin is placed in the effects bin or clip bin it continuously utilizes CPU whether a clip is present or not. Yeah... what's up with that? I've started keeping the Performance Module in the Control Bar just to watch what's doing what and as I'm adding effects and synths to my project I'm watching more and more activity appear across the cores... which is whatever but the weird thing is that activity is still there even if I have playback stopped. It doesn't make sense to me. And seriously when I started the project and was just tracking only the first core was active. The other stuff only started blinking more and more in increments as I added stuff so I don't think it's anything else on my system causing it and the activity doesn't seem to increase when I start playback. Very strange... but I'm only a novice computer nerd so I don't understand what it means or whether it's normal or not. Just strikes me that if nothing is playing there should not be that much CPU activity. Meh.
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:06:01
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Beepster
The way sonar has always appeared to work for me is once a plugin is placed in the effects bin or clip bin it continuously utilizes CPU whether a clip is present or not. Yeah... what's up with that? I've started keeping the Performance Module in the Control Bar just to watch what's doing what and as I'm adding effects and synths to my project I'm watching more and more activity appear across the cores... which is whatever but the weird thing is that activity is still there even if I have playback stopped. It doesn't make sense to me. And seriously when I started the project and was just tracking only the first core was active. The other stuff only started blinking more and more in increments as I added stuff so I don't think it's anything else on my system causing it and the activity doesn't seem to increase when I start playback.
Very strange... but I'm only a novice computer nerd so I don't understand what it means or whether it's normal or not. Just strikes me that if nothing is playing there should not be that much CPU activity.
Meh.
You're 100% right. That's how it works. I freeze everything now. That way I have the most resources possible available. But, I always unfreeze everything just before I export. I don't fully understand how frozen tracks are handled during export, so I just unfreeze everything and make sure it sounds the way I want with all the effects going. The only way around this now, is to put all of your VST's in the FX Chain Module and Automate it's on/off button. You can't do it with individual effects, but it does work on the entire FX Chain Module.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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sharke
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:09:28
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Bub
Beepster
The way sonar has always appeared to work for me is once a plugin is placed in the effects bin or clip bin it continuously utilizes CPU whether a clip is present or not. Yeah... what's up with that? I've started keeping the Performance Module in the Control Bar just to watch what's doing what and as I'm adding effects and synths to my project I'm watching more and more activity appear across the cores... which is whatever but the weird thing is that activity is still there even if I have playback stopped. It doesn't make sense to me. And seriously when I started the project and was just tracking only the first core was active. The other stuff only started blinking more and more in increments as I added stuff so I don't think it's anything else on my system causing it and the activity doesn't seem to increase when I start playback.
Very strange... but I'm only a novice computer nerd so I don't understand what it means or whether it's normal or not. Just strikes me that if nothing is playing there should not be that much CPU activity.
Meh.
You're 100% right. That's how it works.
I freeze everything now. That way I have the most resources possible available.
But, I always unfreeze everything just before I export. I don't fully understand how frozen tracks are handled during export, so I just unfreeze everything and make sure it sounds the way I want with all the effects going.
The only way around this now, is to put all of your VST's in the FX Chain Module and Automate it's on/off button. You can't do it with individual effects, but it does work on the entire FX Chain Module.
There is a bug, recognized by Cakewalk, whereby automation of an FX Chain's on/off button does not work unless the ProChannel in question is either open in the console view, or in the inspector. I wrote about this problem recently and someone from Cakewalk - I think it may have been Noel - replied to say that they were aware of the issue, but that it was too big of a problem to fix without breaking something else in the process, so they had no plans to fix it.
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Splat
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:10:46
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Its normal. No different from outboard equipment. When you press stop for instance your reverbs will not stop.
Apparently not normal in VST3, I guess each plugin sends a message to the daw to request that it is turned off or on. The daw would have to manage this sort of thing, code would be quite complex methinks, esp as it would have to compensate with rogue plugins. On the other hand dodgy plugins would be easier to isolate.
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sharke
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:11:14
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Beepster
The way sonar has always appeared to work for me is once a plugin is placed in the effects bin or clip bin it continuously utilizes CPU whether a clip is present or not.
Yeah... what's up with that? I've started keeping the Performance Module in the Control Bar just to watch what's doing what and as I'm adding effects and synths to my project I'm watching more and more activity appear across the cores... which is whatever but the weird thing is that activity is still there even if I have playback stopped. It doesn't make sense to me. And seriously when I started the project and was just tracking only the first core was active. The other stuff only started blinking more and more in increments as I added stuff so I don't think it's anything else on my system causing it and the activity doesn't seem to increase when I start playback.
Very strange... but I'm only a novice computer nerd so I don't understand what it means or whether it's normal or not. Just strikes me that if nothing is playing there should not be that much CPU activity.
Meh.
My guess is that even when playback is stopped, the VST's have their processes active and running. They're probably working flat out to process a frantic series of zero's 
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Beepster
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:16:27
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Right on. Thanks for the insight guys. It's not a big deal because only the first core is really spiking (and it still stays under 50%). The rest are just barely registering so I've got lots of breathing room. I'm glad I found out about that module. I was always worried what was going on in the background and my stupid ASUS hardware monitor is a POS so being able to see what's happening right in the Control Bar puts my mind at ease.
Cheers. Hope you're all having a good day.
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sharke
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:16:45
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CakeAlexS
Its normal. No different from outboard equipment. When you press stop for instance your reverbs will not stop.
Apparently not normal in VST3, I guess each plugin sends a message to the daw to request that it is turned off or on. The daw would have too manage this sort of thing, code would be quite complex methinks
Yeah, something like: if (Playback == 0) For (i=0; i<numVSTs; i++) VST(i).status = 0; I'm almost 100% sure that's what the code would look like
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chuckebaby
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:18:07
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Bub
New code, more stability, more reliability, more features, more creative possibilities, it's FREE to developers.
Yeah, I can understand why Cakewalk hates it.
seems the other way around to me bub :) like adding another wrench in to the code cabinet. in my opinion sonar has been adding on to their code for many releases now. x1 may have been a big re write but still the founding code. im not sure a new code mixed with the old code is all that easy to do. im with you all the way on hopefully seeing this in the future,soon future even. from another angle i look at like this(this part has nothing to do with you) i see some users who have bought some very expensive plug ins and when they realize they cant get their full potential out of these plug ins unless they have vst3 they hit the roof and get upset. mean while if they did get those plug ins with the notion sonar will be vst 3 on this release so im going to get them. shame on them.sonar hasnt put out any info even hinting towards vst 3. but if they dont look at it soon,they're going to be left behind in the technology department catalog under "V" for vst 3.
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sharke
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:19:25
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chuckebaby
Bub
New code, more stability, more reliability, more features, more creative possibilities, it's FREE to developers.
Yeah, I can understand why Cakewalk hates it.
seems the other way around to me bub :)
like adding another wrench in to the code cabinet.
in my opinion sonar has been adding on to their code for many releases now.
x1 may have been a big re write but still the founding code.
im not sure a new code mixed with the old code is all that easy to do.
im with you all the way on hopefully seeing this in the future,soon future even.
from another angle i look at like this(this part has nothing to do with you)
i seesome users who have bought some very expensive plug ins and when they realize they cant get their full potential out of these plug ins unless they have vst3 they hot the roof and get upset.
mean while if they did get those plug ins with the notion sonar will be vst 3 on this release so im going to get them.
shame on them.sonar hasnt put out any info even hinting towards vst 3.
but if they dont look at it soon,they're going to be left behind in the technology department catalog under "V" for vst 3.
I'm guessing Sonar has never been rewritten and is still teetering on code that still exists from it's DOS days. A bit like Quickbooks really.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:20:36
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Man, I could have swore there was a setting to shut off the audio engine when you hit stop, but I can't find it. Must have imagined it.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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backwoods
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:24:18
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"I'm guessing Sonar has never been rewritten and is still teetering on code that still exists from it's DOS days. A bit like Quickbooks really. "
Like all the fully functioning DAWs- Logic, Samplitude, ProTools, Digital Performer, Cubase.
I wouldn't say Sonar is "teetering" at all.
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:24:59
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sharke
chuckebaby
Bub
New code, more stability, more reliability, more features, more creative possibilities, it's FREE to developers.
Yeah, I can understand why Cakewalk hates it.
seems the other way around to me bub :)
like adding another wrench in to the code cabinet.
in my opinion sonar has been adding on to their code for many releases now.
x1 may have been a big re write but still the founding code.
im not sure a new code mixed with the old code is all that easy to do.
im with you all the way on hopefully seeing this in the future,soon future even.
from another angle i look at like this(this part has nothing to do with you)
i seesome users who have bought some very expensive plug ins and when they realize they cant get their full potential out of these plug ins unless they have vst3 they hot the roof and get upset.
mean while if they did get those plug ins with the notion sonar will be vst 3 on this release so im going to get them.
shame on them.sonar hasnt put out any info even hinting towards vst 3.
but if they dont look at it soon,they're going to be left behind in the technology department catalog under "V" for vst 3.
I'm guessing Sonar has never been rewritten and is still teetering on code that still exists from it's DOS days.
A bit like Quickbooks really.
I believe that to be the case. The last official word I remember reading on it was that X1 was 8.5 with an updated GUI and some new workflow features. I don't know how much had to be altered, but they did update the Engine. It now supports 384kHz, it only supported 192kHz prior to X2. But I don't know how much work it was to do that.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Bub
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:26:40
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backwoods
"I'm guessing Sonar has never been rewritten and is still teetering on code that still exists from it's DOS days. A bit like Quickbooks really. "
Like all the fully functioning DAWs- Logic, Samplitude, ProTools, Digital Performer, Cubase.
I wouldn't say Sonar is "teetering" at all.
And the ones that are most stable have been re-written, or are new code. Reaper ... Studio One. BTW ... I checked, Studio One supports VST3's. ... and ... it comes with the Tube Sat Knob for free. ;)
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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sharke
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:41:45
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backwoods
"I'm guessing Sonar has never been rewritten and is still teetering on code that still exists from it's DOS days. A bit like Quickbooks really. "
Like all the fully functioning DAWs- Logic, Samplitude, ProTools, Digital Performer, Cubase.
I wouldn't say Sonar is "teetering" at all.
Well perhaps "teetering" is a rather dramatic word. But if Cakewalk had unlimited time and money, do you really think they'd look at all of that old code and think "nope, there is absolutely nothing we could do to improve this in the context of a modern 2013 system"? I'm not saying Sonar is unique is this, because ALL well established software is full of old code. I have no doubt that there are collections of 0's and 1's in the latest version of Photoshop that are untouched from the first version.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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backwoods
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Re:SONAR X2 AND VST3 TECHNOLOGY ,I can not understand!!!!!
2013/02/12 15:44:13
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Yes, that's right mate. In the perfect world we would have the perfect DAW.
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