Helpful ReplySetting Up A Vocal Track

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/01 17:07:33 (permalink)
I don't think you'd be wise mic-ing vocals with a 214 if there's a drummer and bass player in the same room anyway :)

Glad to hear you're on the right track. I'll check out the file later.
#31
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/01 17:07:57 (permalink)
jpetersen
Untreated dynamic vocals can sound weak compared to other instruments.
Once you use the Concrete Limiter or one of the compressors, it will rise in loudness.
 
By the way, I am curious to know if the 25Hz area thing has been solved.
If so, then this microphone will pick up this low-end area from anything playing at the back, so beware in cases where you are playing with drums or bass.


No, it's still there, and seems to have risen in level in proportion to the rest of the recorded audio.
 
Don't you find it ironic that when attempting to solve one problem, another issue is quite often revealed.

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#32
AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/01 18:27:51 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
jpetersen
Untreated dynamic vocals can sound weak compared to other instruments.
Once you use the Concrete Limiter or one of the compressors, it will rise in loudness.
 
By the way, I am curious to know if the 25Hz area thing has been solved.
If so, then this microphone will pick up this low-end area from anything playing at the back, so beware in cases where you are playing with drums or bass.


No, it's still there, and seems to have risen in level in proportion to the rest of the recorded audio.
 
Don't you find it ironic that when attempting to solve one problem, another issue is quite often revealed.




oh really?   Im not sure I understand.   On the 2nd vocal clip I posted, there is still that "25Hz" problem?   
 
Im not worried, vocals are being done in isolation, but is there something I still need to fix?
#33
orangesporanges
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/01 19:55:41 (permalink)
this is now going into the realm of proper mic technique, I think. Do you have a pop filter? if no, get or make one. ( I made one out of panty hose and an embroider hoop and some really heavy wire to act as a goose neck. coat hanger and pantyhose works great too, might have to hold it though).Set your levels where they don't quite clip at the loudest parts. Practice your part, moving in to the mic for quiet parts and stepping back 4"-6" for the louder stuff. A little practice before hitting record will help you capture a great take. As far as overall level is concerned, don't worry about it too much, that is what mixing is for. Just make sure your noise floor is low. Watch your meters in the room with the mic active. The loudest noise should be you moving around.Turn off stuff that generate noise. Sanderxpanders advice is good.If you share the space with anyone, a menacing  sign warning them that recording is in progress is good for preventing that annoying "honey/ Dad , are you down there?" artifact from creeping in to your take. Good luck!
 

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#34
AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/01 20:48:33 (permalink)
Hi, I have a pop filter, reflection shield and a totally silent room (including PC fans) and using proper technique.   But I am being told there is still an issue with the way my raw vocal sounds.  I am new at recording vocals so I dont know what its supposed to sound like raw before treatment.  
 
Here is the link again (with the mic facing the right way lol) for convenience:  https://www.dropbox.com/s...05%20%2845%29.wav?dl=0
#35
Sanderxpander
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 02:14:02 (permalink)
If you zoom into your waveform you can see that it doesn't cross zero (middle) very often - the higher frequencies modulate up and down as a whole. That's not supposed to happen. With one take and on smaller speakers you may not hear much of a difference but the huge amount of low energy is coming from somewhere and is a major problem later on. It has nothing to do with mic technique I don't think. It seems like a technical or electrical problem. A normal looking wave crosses through zero with every fundamental (lowest frequency oscillation). Your fundamental is around 25Hz but your actual voice doesn't get below, say, 100Hz. Look at the audio clips in this link:
https://www.cakewalk.com/..mentation?product=SONAR X2&language=3&help=Arranging.12.html

Do you see how yours look different?

Can you try a different mic cable? The second input on your interface? How many power points are in all your connected gear (speakers, computer, interface etc) and how are they hooked up (single socket with an extension, multiple wall sockets, grounded or not etc).
#36
AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 02:21:27 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
If you zoom into your waveform you can see that it doesn't cross zero (middle) very often - the higher frequencies modulate up and down as a whole. That's not supposed to happen. With one take and on smaller speakers you may not hear much of a difference but the huge amount of low energy is coming from somewhere and is a major problem later on. It has nothing to do with mic technique I don't think. It seems like a technical or electrical problem. A normal looking wave crosses through zero with every fundamental (lowest frequency oscillation). Your fundamental is around 25Hz but your actual voice doesn't get below, say, 100Hz. Look at the audio clips in this link:
https://www.cakewalk.com/..mentation?product=SONAR X2&language=3&help=Arranging.12.html

Do you see how yours look different?

Can you try a different mic cable? The second input on your interface? How many power points are in all your connected gear (speakers, computer, interface etc) and how are they hooked up (single socket with an extension, multiple wall sockets, grounded or not etc).



Hi Sanderxpander,
 
the link you gave is broken, I even tried copying the whole thing out and nothing.
I've tried 2 different cables and tried both inputs on the Scarlett 2i2.   I have nothing plugged into the wall... its just the Scarlett 2i2 plugged in via USB and then the mic XLR cable right from the mic to the scarlett input.  
 
this is so frustrating - it's just supposed to work :(
 
thanks for your help so far.
#37
Sanderxpander
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 03:16:04 (permalink)
Ok try this then:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zgbffy1utnxlya6/25Hz%20fix.wav?dl=0
 
I processed your second file with a heavy cut around 100dB to take out all of the excess lows. It's a bit extreme but if you put it next to your original you can see the difference in the files and your voice shouldn't sound too different. This is what a normal vocal recording is supposed to look like.
#38
AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 03:29:37 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
Ok try this then:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zgbffy1utnxlya6/25Hz%20fix.wav?dl=0
 
I processed your second file with a heavy cut around 100dB to take out all of the excess lows. It's a bit extreme but if you put it next to your original you can see the difference in the files and your voice shouldn't sound too different. This is what a normal vocal recording is supposed to look like.




Hey, thanks so much for doing that for me.  I see your track is in stereo, but yea I do see the difference...   
 
i just dont know what to do about this.  Here is what they look like side by side (mine is on top, yours under it)


#39
jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 09:17:37 (permalink)
Is your mic stand on a wooden floor?
Are you holding the mic, bumping the stand with your foot/hand, something like that?
#40
jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 09:19:32 (permalink)
Is it only superimposing itself on your vox waveform when you actually sing up from a particular loudness?
Looks VERY strange... No interference unless you actually sing. Is that what is happening?
It's nothing regular, not a hum or buzz, really looks like the mic got physically thumped.
 
You're not tapping your foot as you sing, are you?
 
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/01/02 09:35:43
#41
AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 09:55:35 (permalink)
nope, the mic stand is on carpet and im not holding it.   
Im going return the mic and get a new one and see what happens.
#42
AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 10:05:48 (permalink)
here is something of interest....
 
as I am recording, if you watch the waveform preview, it looks healthy!  (see here):  
 

 
 
but once you hit the STOP button, this is what you end up with:
 

 
this is the same take.   Just the first image is as I am singing, and the next one is after I hit the stop button.
 
I hope this may reveal something, i don't know.
 
Thank you!
Adam
#43
jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 10:21:12 (permalink)
What kind of floor is it?
 
The mic does not know that Sonar has stopped recording. Neither the mic nor the interface will behave any different.
If you sing, then stop abruptly, is there a tail of this low-frequency material visible in the recording?
 
#44
AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 10:27:01 (permalink)
jpetersen
What kind of floor is it?
 
The mic does not know that Sonar has stopped recording. Neither the mic nor the interface will behave any different.
If you sing, then stop abruptly, is there a tail of this low-frequency material visible in the recording?
 




its on a carpet floor.   there is no noise coming from the room.
 
I wonder if Sonar is actually doing something to the waveform because like it shows above, coming in it seems good in the waveform preview while recording, so why after the recording is finished, does it process the information to what we see in the end?
#45
jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 10:27:01 (permalink)
...oh, sorry, I understand what you are doing now.
Whilst recording, Sonar paints an "estimate".
When you stop, it then draws the waveform according to the real, stored data.
 
OK, so that is the waveform. Your vox superimposed over some really loud sub bass.
Well, I guess a faulty mic is a possibility. It just doesn't look like a faulty condenser or dry joint. It really looks audio/mechanical, not electronic.
 
Try with a simple live mic if you can get one. Shure 58, something like that.
They have built-in rolloff below 200Hz and they have no electronics, so if you still get this, it must be the interface or something else.
 
Edit: Yes, but the carpet is standing on - what kind of floor? Concrete? But OK, I'm sure if the carpet was on a wood floor, you would have said.
post edited by jpetersen - 2016/01/02 10:46:14
#46
jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 10:30:38 (permalink)
What happens if you disconnect the mic and cable from the interface, start Sonar recording and turn up the input volume slowly from zero to all the way open?
#47
jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 10:46:04 (permalink)
Also to try:
Set the interface input control to the level you use when you sing into the mic.
Then record with the mic connected but without singing, in a silent room.
Do you still get that waveform?
#48
Sanderxpander
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 10:53:47 (permalink)
Could it be DC offset of some sort? I've never used that checkbox.
#49
jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 11:13:27 (permalink)
No. DC is a clear offset either up or down.
 
Let's eliminate things systematically one at a time, else we'll be guessing forever.
 
Please record some silence with your mic connected and the input level at what you normally use.
Do the same with the mic and cable disconnected.
 
If you get the low waveform only when the mic is connected, then it really is the mic.
Else it is your interface or some other source of interference.
#50
AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 11:17:31 (permalink)
jpetersen
No. DC is a clear offset either up or down.
 
Let's eliminate things systematically one at a time, else we'll be guessing forever.
 
Please record some silence with your mic connected and the input level at what you normally use.
Do the same with the mic and cable disconnected.
 
If you get the low waveform only when the mic is connected, then it really is the mic.
Else it is your interface or some other source of interference.




great idea jpeterson, I will try this when I get home later.   I will post the results of both of these tests.  Thank you!!
#51
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 11:52:22 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
Could it be DC offset of some sort? I've never used that checkbox.

I wondered about that and actually processed his original clip but there's no change to the 25Hz build up.
 
Op, if you crank your monitoring up REALLY loud, can you hear any subsonic rumbling anywhere?
Do it with your mic plugged in and the input gain at normal recording level - make sure input echo is on

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#52
AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 12:21:48 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
Sanderxpander
Could it be DC offset of some sort? I've never used that checkbox.

I wondered about that and actually processed his original clip but there's no change to the 25Hz build up.
 
Op, if you crank your monitoring up REALLY loud, can you hear any subsonic rumbling anywhere?
Do it with your mic plugged in and the input gain at normal recording level - make sure input echo is on




will test for that later tonight and post results.  thank you!
#53
Sanderxpander
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 12:43:55 (permalink)
Eh DON'T crank up your monitoring if your highly sensitive condenser mic is in the same room!!
#54
AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 12:51:24 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
Eh DON'T crank up your monitoring if your highly sensitive condenser mic is in the same room!!



oh i planned on doing it with my high powered HD6 Mix Pro headphones which go down to like 8Hz. :)
#55
Sanderxpander
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 12:57:50 (permalink)
Oh good haha. A feedback loop like that would NOT be fun.
#56
Sanderxpander
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 12:58:40 (permalink)
By the way the 214 seems to have a low cut switch, have you tried to see what happens if you enable it?
#57
AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 13:00:43 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
By the way the 214 seems to have a low cut switch, have you tried to see what happens if you enable it?



Hi there, yea I didn't mention it because I already have it enabled (the manual says for lead vocals its best to have it enabled so it scoops at the low end rumble).
#58
jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 13:21:48 (permalink)
According to the user manual, the low-cut is down almost -30dB at 25Hz.
That means it isn't coming from the room and it's not rumble coming through the floor.
If it were, it'd be very loud.
 
#59
jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track 2016/01/02 13:26:48 (permalink)
So it's either the phantom power from the interface 
or, and most likely, the mic itself is faulty.
 
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