AdamGrossmanLG
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Setting Up A Vocal Track
Hello Everyone, I am brand spanking new to laying down vocals. I am using Sonar Platiunum, a C214 mic plugged into a Scarlett 2i2 audio interface. I created a new audio track in Sonar, and I am getting my vocals into the track, but: 1. the sound is VERY low (-60 db) 2. the sound is only recording onto the LEFT channel This begs me to ask several things. 1. on a scale from 0% to 100%, where should the gain knob on my Scarlett 2i2 interface for my mic input level be at? I have mine around 80% and it is STILL low. 2. I am guessing since Vocals are mono, this is why it is recording only onto the left channel, which begs me to wonder, how do you record vocals in Sonar? Is there a special mono vocal track I am missing in the Insert options? 3. The guy at the Guitar Center who sold me the equipment told me I really need a pre-amp between the mic and the Scarlett 2i2 interface for best results. Is this true? I decided to decline on that simply because I wanted to test this out at home first. Is this the missing link here? Thank you all! -Adam
post edited by SilverBlueMedallion - 2015/12/30 00:03:55
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 02:00:56
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1. You should set the input gain so that in Sonar, with the track armed for recording, you see levels of somewhere between -12dB & -6dB. This assumes your track fader is at 0dB
2. Yes, vocals are mono so you should select the relevant input in the Track Header (or Inspector). This should make Sonar switch the interleave to mono, if it doesn't, check your selection
3. The guy at Guitar Centre is just trying to sell you more gear - your Scarlet IS a pre-amp, but ensure you've engaged the 48V Phantom Power which the C214 needs in order to operate correctly
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 02:14:34
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Bristol_Jonesey
1. You should set the input gain so that in Sonar, with the track armed for recording, you see levels of somewhere between -12dB & -6dB. This assumes your track fader is at 0dB
2. Yes, vocals are mono so you should select the relevant input in the Track Header (or Inspector). This should make Sonar switch the interleave to mono, if it doesn't, check your selection
3. The guy at Guitar Centre is just trying to sell you more gear - your Scarlet IS a pre-amp, but ensure you've engaged the 48V Phantom Power which the C214 needs in order to operate correctly
Hello Bristol, Thanks for the response. I do have some questions... 1. No matter what I do, even with the input gain up all the way, the loudest I can get the mic up to is about -45db, but thats with a lot of noise coming through too. I feel something is very wrong with my input, but not sure what. 2. can you be more specific as to what I should be selecting in the Track Header? I am not sure what I should be doing here. 3. Thank you, thought so. he said though a pre-amp would even sound better than the Scarlett's built in pre-amp. But yea, he is probably trying to sell me more stuff lol.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 02:19:32
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I just noticed in regards to item #1: OK when I am singing into the mic, i see the peaks around -10db, so that is good... BUT the recorded track is like at -40db. this doesnt make sense to me. How is the live input much louder than the recorded track?
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 02:25:50
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EDIT: if you UNARM the track, the meters work properly, so yes I am getting a good volume then! strange behavior there.
I also figured it out, I have to choose the LEFT channel only as the input for the track.
correct me if I am wrong please.
Thanks for all your help.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 04:20:06
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Yes, left input only.
you should be good to go
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 09:16:06
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cool. do you know why i have to unarm the track in order to see the volume meters work? If the track is left armed and i play back my vocal track, I think it is just giving you current input of the mic instead of what is playing on the track. Is there a way to switch that behavior?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 10:25:15
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The meters perform a dual function - when armed they act as an input monitor, when unarmed, they show the output level of the track, relative to fader position.
You should not have to unarm a track to see the levels registering when you sing/play into your microphone
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konradh
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 11:00:44
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☄ Helpfulby SilverBlueMedallion 2015/12/30 18:54:57
I am concerned about the low level and the noise. 1. Someone else mentioned checking that phantom power is ON on your interface. If not, that is a problem. 2. Your mic documentation should give an impedance value. You can find the C214's specs at the link below. On the Scarlett, though, I don't see of a way to set that *but* you should double-check that you have the input set to LINE and not INSTRUMENT. 3. Your mic also has a 20db pad on it. In the on position, that would lower the output level. although it would not increase the noise. 4. Back to the stereo/mono thing, if you are only getting signal to one side but opening up the other side all the way, I can see how that might cause noise, although I've never had the issue. I usually get signal on one side and silence on the other. You can record a mic to a stereo track and just pan it Center. I do that all the time. 5. The only other issue would be a set-up problem with the interface. The Scarlett User Guide is excellent and you can find it online if you don't still have it. In general, the symptoms you describe are usually caused by an input interface open too much but with a low signal coming from the mic. Please check phantom power and the mic pad. I have had this problem with a very low-level mic feeding an interface with very low gain, but with the mic and interface you have, I can't see how that could be a problem. Dumb question: but you Scarlett is going direct to your PC and not through another interface, right? If you are using it as a mic preamp feeding another interface, there are lots of opportunities for level issues. Example: I have used a mic preamp to feed my VS-700 interface. It was fine but I had to get all the levels and setting right. http://www.akg.com/pro/p/c214
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 11:37:30
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Bristol_Jonesey
The meters perform a dual function - when armed they act as an input monitor, when unarmed, they show the output level of the track, relative to fader position.
You should not have to unarm a track to see the levels registering when you sing/play into your microphone
exactly, so it is working as described. I was hoping to see the wave playback meter levels while the track was still armed, but it makes sense that while it is armed it is monitoring line-in instead. thanks for your help!
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chamlin
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 12:09:28
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Adam, I believe that most of the issue you're having might be due to improper setting in the Focusrite MixControl application that controls your audio interface. I experienced similar issues with my Scarlett as well. I bought access to the Groove3 tutorial video, https://www.groove3.com/Focusrite-training-video-tutorials/Focusrite-MixControl-Explained and it really helped clear things up. Because I only had to do it once, I'm not able to articulately guide you without causing confusion, but I do believe it may be on sale today. Also, agreed that there is no need for an additional mic preamp. I'd LIKE one, but this sounds quite good already.
post edited by chamlin - 2015/12/30 12:22:21
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 17:19:35
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☄ Helpfulby SilverBlueMedallion 2015/12/30 17:34:41
I believe the OP's issues were already pretty much resolved a few posts ago.
Other tips, since you've apparently never done this before:
- get a pop filter for your mic
- create a room around the mic that's mostly acoustically "dead". I personally use a padded closet. If you have no such option or even have to be in the same room as the recording gear, use an SE Electronics Reflexion filter and prefereably stand with your back to a mattress against a wall, or maybe a thick curtain.
- put the mic stand and/or your feet on a rug, unless you already have carpet flooring.
- use so-called "closed" headphones - the shells should keep the sound in as much as possible so you don't get any "bleeding" from your backing track or click while you're recording.
- turn off anything in the room that might make sound (if possible) while you're recording. Airco, fans, electric heating etc. Even if it doesn't seem so bad on one track, once you start layering that stuff builds up.
- condensers are sensitive mics, you shouldn't be all up against them like you might with an SM58 in a live situation. Still, in (hyper)cardioid mode, they have a definite proximity effect (bass boost when close). While a normal distance of 10cm or 4 inches is good to aim for, you can use the mic distance to color your vocals somewhat. Good technique can mean a lot.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 17:22:53
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chamlin
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 18:16:07
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konradh
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 20:09:26
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Adam, Someone said your issues were resolved several posts ago. Could you give us a sentence or two to summarize what was wrong/fixed? This is not an uncommon problem and I'd like to know what caused it in your case. Crappy mic preamps are often the problem but that was obviously not your problem since you have a good interface/preamp.
Thanks.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/30 21:00:08
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Sure thing.
Well first off, the vocal was low because I had my gain on my audio interface at only about the 40% mark. I wasn't sure where I should set it.
Secondly, I kept looking at the meters after I record a vocal and I saw around -45db. This was because the track was still armed and the VU meters were showing the line input and not the signal from the audio on the track.
I still feel it might be a LITTLE low, not sure. I now have my gain on my Scarlett interface on the line-in at about 80% and singing in a moderately loud tone about 6cm from the mic gives me around -12db.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/31 03:08:31
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I don't think that's uncommon for a built-in preamp. You could probably clip it with a shout at this level. My older but at the time similarly priced and featured M-Audio Fast Track Pro also needed gains boosted to around 90 percent for most mic uses. That's probably one reason the shop assistant said a preamp might get better results. At the same time, 80 or 90 percent is still within the usable range so if it works, it works.
post edited by Sanderxpander - 2015/12/31 04:06:27
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konradh
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/31 08:21:38
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Thanks, Adam, and good luck.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/31 09:34:04
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Thank you everyone for helping me out - you guys are great, love this community!!!
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2015/12/31 19:13:21
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Hello All, I still feel something is wrong here. I am attaching a very short vocal phrase. I want to know since I never recorded vocals before if my levels and sound appear in the ballpark to you guys. The following clip is from my AKG C214 mic, plugged directly into my Scarlett 2i2 Interface with the input gain knob at about 75%. I set the track input to Scarlett Left-In only so it changes the track to mono. I recorded this short vocal phrase just as a test about 4 inches away from the mic using a pop shield. On the VU meter in Sonar it peaks at -13db and an RMS about -25 db (using SPAN as my meter) - although to me it sounds much lower than this... I understand I need compression and FX to bring the vocal take to life, but I feel this recording might be too low for a dry vocal track... what do you guys think? Also, how about the noise floor? My room is pretty silent, I want to know if there is backing noise that might build up on me. I am just looking to find out if I am in the ballpark for what a dry vocal take should sound like before it is treated - noise, sonic quality, overall volume, any distortion? or anything else I cant think of. Oh and excuse me in advance - I have a cold and not the best singer in the world to begin with, but yea... she's got a ticket to ride. hahaha https://www.dropbox.com/s...05%20%2845%29.wav?dl=0 Happy New Year Everyone!! -Adam
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2016/01/01 05:15:23
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Level wise initially it seemed fine (for me it peaked at -7.1 which is pretty healthy) but you seem to have a gigantic bass build up. Like, sub bass, somewhere at 25Hz. It's distorting the wave enormously. If I do a hefty low cut around 100dB I end up with a normal looking wave with a peak of about -20.6. That's still workable but I would suggest something other than leveling is wrong. I'm a bit baffled by what it is. Do you have any grounding issues? Your noise floor seems quite low by the way, I don't think you should worry about that. Someone else with some technical experience please look at the file, it's really strange. It's like the mic is standing on a plate that's vibrating at around 25Hz.
post edited by Sanderxpander - 2016/01/01 05:38:46
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2016/01/01 07:13:33
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☄ Helpfulby SilverBlueMedallion 2016/01/01 15:04:53
Yes, there's a HUGE amount of energy down there which fully rolls off at 50Hz.
Not sure what's going on. I would suggest you check everything in your chain from Mic to Sonar.
Double check you've got Phantom Power switched on at the Scarlett and this might sound totally daft but are you singing into the correct side of the mic?
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jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2016/01/01 08:24:20
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I have a Neumann TLM 103 which also picks up enormous amounts of low-end.
Neither your microphone nor your interface has a low cut filter. (around 80-100Hz)
You may need an inline filter which lets phantom power through.
I use a Shure A15HP.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2016/01/01 09:28:47
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I've worked with a TLM 103 and it's nothing like this. It's almost as if the regular sound wave is being modulated by an LFO at 25Hz. I've also used a 214 a few times and had no problems either. Something fishy is going on. Any chance of using a different mic, different cable or the other preamp or another interface entirely?
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jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2016/01/01 09:40:41
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Ah. OK.
So is there an earth loop?
Does it get worse when the OP touches the microphone?
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2016/01/01 14:54:32
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BINGO! I was singing into the wrong side of the mic! (how embarassing). Here is a new short wave file - please tell me if this sounds better? Is the volume at a normal recording level (pre-effects, compression, etc...) How is the clarity and noise floor? Or anything I might be missing or need to improve (besides my crap singing lol). Here is the new link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/42q73q5j5gf3okh/Record%204%20%2812%29.wav?dl=0 It is still sounding quite low in the mix (granted, it is raw and untreated), should I be recording any hotter than this? Thanks again everyone!!! -Adam
post edited by SilverBlueMedallion - 2016/01/01 15:07:21
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2016/01/01 16:35:28
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You're actually clipping at one point so it's already too hot - you need to back off the input gain by at least 6dB
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jpetersen
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2016/01/01 16:45:45
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Untreated dynamic vocals can sound weak compared to other instruments.
Once you use the Concrete Limiter or one of the compressors, it will rise in loudness.
By the way, I am curious to know if the 25Hz area thing has been solved.
If so, then this microphone will pick up this low-end area from anything playing at the back, so beware in cases where you are playing with drums or bass.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2016/01/01 16:48:27
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Bristol_Jonesey
You're actually clipping at one point so it's already too hot - you need to back off the input gain by at least 6dB
yes, on the word "care" - i see that. what is so weird though is that it is clipping, yet the peak is at -3db, I thought clipping means it is hitting 0db, no? Also, maybe im just new to this, but it feels like the track is just lower than where it should be (even though it is not treated yet). What should the VU meter peak and average at on a newly recorded lead vocal track? Thank you again! Adam
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Setting Up A Vocal Track
2016/01/01 16:49:55
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jpetersen
Untreated dynamic vocals can sound weak compared to other instruments.
Once you use the Concrete Limiter or one of the compressors, it will rise in loudness.
By the way, I am curious to know if the 25Hz area thing has been solved.
If so, then this microphone will pick up this low-end area from anything playing at the back, so beware in cases where you are playing with drums or bass.
yup, it was me using the wrong side of the mic (duh!) lol
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