The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 10:28:46
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John
mike_mccue
Sonar X1 is dumbed down... it's basically Garage Band 20.0
The latest changes have probably inspired a lot of Mac users to dream about trying SONAR on a store bought DAW.
I wonder if you need a back ground check to buy a Dell?
Maybe I don't know what dumb down means. To me it means it can't do what it once did. That is absurd.
What you need to do is figure out how it is done now because it has changed. It can still do everything it ever did before and some more to boot.
And please don't talk about work flow. That wont wash any more.
It seems obvious to me that you do not know what dumb down means... but I think you do and just savor the denial. It's also obvious to me that you sincerely feel that I have yet to figure something out... I think you probably do sincerely feel that way. It's also obvious to me that you will deny knowing about the things that you can't do in SONAR X1 that you could do in previous versions until I tell them to you... and then you'll quickly agree and claim that you knew about those things all the time. It's like a game for you. We've done this all before... you tell little fibs and make fun of people that you think aren't as smart as you and then try to maintain your stance until you retreat back to the "I knew that.. but I denied knowing about it because the dumbing down doesn't matter to me" final defense.
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John
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 10:42:58
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We are at an impasse. If dumbing down means to you consistantcy throughout the application. Better organization of menus. Quick use of tools. Better dual monitor support. Less clicking on stuff to get anything done and more power from the tools then your idea of dumb is very different from mine.
I think those that have your view need to reassess what constitutes dumbing down.
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Twigman
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 10:49:02
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John
We are at an impasse.
If dumbing down means to you consistantcy throughout the application.
Better organization of menus.
WRONG X1 IS TOTALLY UNINTUITIVE - WTF HAVE ALL THE RIGHT CLICK MENUS GONE?
Quick use of tools.
CERTAIN TOOLS MAYBE
Better dual monitor support.
DUNNO
Less clicking on stuff to get anything done
COMPLETE RUBBISH - FIRST YOU GOTTA REALISE WHAT YOU WANT IS TUCKED AWAY ON AN ILLOGICAL PART OF THE GUI THEN CLICK THROUGH THIS AND THAT TO GET THERE - WHAT WAS SO WRONG WITH ICONS AND RIGHT CLICK MENUS?
and more power from the tools
MAYBE
then your idea of dumb is very different from mine.
I think those that have your view need to reassess what constitutes dumbing down.
And you need a dictionary.
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Collandra
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 10:54:54
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Hmm, it seems I may have started something here, which was not my intention! I just wanted to express my opinion of X1 and why I want to buy it and use it for my productions and remixes rather than anything else, so let me clear up a few things...
Firstly, I have not been tempted to buy X1 because I look at it from what some see as a typical Mac users point of view of needing everything to be "supermodel pretty" and I most certainly do not think of X1 as "Garageband '20", as if I did, I wouldn't have been interested in it at all, as I have no love for GarageBand whatsoever.
I chose Dell for a reason, so I could customize my PC online and have it made the way I wanted it to be, so it's not really an off-the-shelf "store bought" computer. If I'd wanted to build my own computer from scratch, I could quite easily have done so, as I've made two that way when I was a regular PC user before moving over to a Mac, but I am really pressed for time right now, so I decided against it and let Dell build it for me and I am very pleased with the result.
With regard to X1's interface, I really doubt that Cakewalk changed the GUI to upset people, make it look more attractive or dumb-it-down just to attract a few new users while not caring for it's already established user base. Why would they? From what I've seen, Cakewalk did more business last year than Ableton and Propellerhead put together, so as things are looking so good for them right now, it would be stupid to risk losing Sonar's long established followers just for the sake of attracting a few new ones here and there.
Let me finish up by posing a question, but before I do, I feel the need to make the following statement very clear:
Even though I will never see things the way a long-term, experienced, professional Sonar user will with regards to the changes made with the new Skylight interface, and I am very sure that nothing I say here will ever change the mind of those users who wish to make it very clear that they don't like X1 as much as previous versions of Sonar and (quite possibly) never will, I do completely respect your views.
So, that said, I put this question to you: "How long can this kind of argument over X1 go on and what do you really believe it will change in X1 in the long-term?"
I've seen this kind of thing before on Apple's forum when they dramatically changed the look of Logic Pro from v7 to v8 - and it's taken almost 4 years of what could be seen as pointless debate to finally come to an end, as Apple were never (NEVER) going to do anything about it, were they?
So, how long do you think the Sonar to X1 debate will last over on this forum?
Dell XPS 8300 Core i5 2.8Ghz, 4GB RAM, 1TB HD. Dell ST2320L 23-inch LED Display. Cakewalk A300 Pro Controller.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 10:58:11
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Hi Callandra!!!
Welcome to the forum. We have a lively bunch here. Everyone will try to be helpful in their own way. I hope you enjoy buying and learning SONAR.
all the best,
mike
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John
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 10:59:03
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It seems obvious to me that you do not know what dumb down means... but I think you do and just savor the denial. It's also obvious to me that you sincerely feel that I have yet to figure something out... I think you probably do sincerely feel that way. It's also obvious to me that you will deny knowing about the things that you can't do in SONAR X1 that you could do in previous versions until I tell them to you... and then you'll quickly agree and claim that you knew about those things all the time. It's like a game for you. We've done this all before... you tell little fibs and make fun of people that you think aren't as smart as you and then try to maintain your stance until you retreat back to the "I knew that.. but I denied knowing about it because the dumbing down doesn't matter to me" final defense. I don't know what you are talking about but I will say this you appear as a bitter user that has no wish to find out how to use a new program. What you are hearing from me is a rejection of your view all together and for you being a troglodyte. It seems to me that you have two choices get with the program or move on. I am tired of the bashing you and others push upon us whenever you can. It really is too old now. Dumbing down indeed. Perhaps it is just the opposite you are not up to learning a new GUI.
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John
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:08:27
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Think about this for a moment and why this is so disheartening. A new user starts a thread in which he went out and bought a brand new computer for running the new Sonar. One in which he is impressed. Instead of saying some supportive things we have the bashers come in as if they were trolls and dismiss him and all on this thread by saying its been dumbed sown. How obnoxious and rude.
You guys need to get a life.
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:08:28
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Naw Collandra, you didn't start anything. There's still some frustration here from old users who prefer either the old way of Sonar or would rather not change. Sonar took a risk that the new direction would alienate some older users and it has. You'll learn to recognize them and I agree with you that their beef is as valid as anyone's and I too respect their views.
It is only a matter of time before this same (very) old argument loses steam but you can count on it coming up for a while longer. Personally I thought 8.53 was an awesome program but never got the GUI - at all. Hated those little icons. Others loved it and called it intuitive. Go figure. It's just different strokes and an impossible argument to win as it's all based upon personal opinion. "It's dumbed down." "No it isn't." "Yes it is, here's why." "No it isn't here's why." and on and on.
Eventually the user base will level out and encompass a lot of different users and viewpoints and the 8.53 argument will indeed end - someday.
Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:08:34
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John
We are at an impasse. If dumbing down means to you consistantcy throughout the application. Better organization of menus. Quick use of tools. Better dual monitor support. Less clicking on stuff to get anything done and more power from the tools then your idea of dumb is very different from mine.
I think those that have your view need to reassess what constitutes dumbing down.
The impasse is that you act as if you can have a discussion when you contextualize the parameters to suit your agenda. You are not having a discussion... you are concocting a lecture. When you use the phase "means to you" it reveals a willingness to incorporate presumption into your limited scope of thinking. If you ever make the choice to stop playing that silly game and simply explain your perspective while considering other peoples perspective you will probably realize that you habitually undermine your credibility as you attribute thoughts to people whom never suggested them. It is plainly rude to make presentations based on false pretense in the manner you are so well accustomed to.
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Collandra
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:10:13
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mike_mccue
Hi Callandra!!!
Welcome to the forum. We have a lively bunch here. Everyone will try to be helpful in their own way. I hope you enjoy buying and learning SONAR.
all the best,
mike
Hi Mike and thanks for the welcome! In a way, I'm glad it is kinda lively, as it seems to really get people talking passionately about what they love, which is always good (thought sometimes, things are bound to get a bit heated now and then). Seems like I will be spending a lot of time here...
Dell XPS 8300 Core i5 2.8Ghz, 4GB RAM, 1TB HD. Dell ST2320L 23-inch LED Display. Cakewalk A300 Pro Controller.
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codamedia
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:15:18
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Collandra said:
... I do completely respect your views.
So, that said, I put this question to you: "How long can this kind of argument over X1 go on and what do you really believe it will change in X1 in the long-term?"
I've seen this kind of thing before on Apple's forum when they dramatically changed the look of Logic Pro from v7 to v8 - and it's taken almost 4 years of what could be seen as pointless debate to finally come to an end, as Apple were never (NEVER) going to do anything about it, were they?
So, how long do you think the Sonar to X1 debate will last over on this forum? Your comment above is very well stated. Welcome to the forums Collandra! I see you have got the debate rolling on your first set of posts  The divide is pretty strong here, but it's a great community!
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
Desktop: Win 7 Pro 64 Bit , ASUS MB w/Intel Chipset, INTEL Q9300 Quad Core, 2.5 GHz, 8 GB RAM, ATI 5450 Video Laptop: Windows 7 Pro, i5, 8 Gig Ram Hardware: Presonus FP10 (Firepod), FaderPort, M-Audio Axiom 49, Mackie 1202 VLZ, POD X3 Live, Variax 600, etc... etc...
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ebabes13
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:20:57
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collandra...
welcome to the monkey house...we do have great fun here. I have been using cakewalk since it was only a midi sequencing program. I have gotten every upgrade except 7 and 8 (long hospital stay) I PREFER the new GUI!!! I find that i am working much faster. I used to hate all those tiny little icons. and the bundled plug-ins are very good. i don't use any third party stuff at all, but i am looking at different drum synths and eyeing the UAD stuff.
hope your experience with X1 is as pleasant and productive as mine has been
peace,
chuck
and this is just my OPINION...
i5 audio pc by studiocat--SONAR X1-delta 1010--akg 414's-lots of shure mics--carvin guitars and amps--THD amps--fmr preamps and compressors--anything else i can get my hands on
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just an old hippie
-------------------
who are the Antique Zephyrs?
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John
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:25:25
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Collandra
Hmm, it seems I may have started something here, which was not my intention! I just wanted to express my opinion of X1 and why I want to buy it and use it for my productions and remixes rather than anything else, so let me clear up a few things...
Firstly, I have not been tempted to buy X1 because I look at it from what some see as a typical Mac users point of view of needing everything to be "supermodel pretty" and I most certainly do not think of X1 as "Garageband '20", as if I did, I wouldn't have been interested in it at all, as I have no love for GarageBand whatsoever.
I chose Dell for a reason, so I could customize my PC online and have it made the way I wanted it to be, so it's not really an off-the-shelf "store bought" computer. If I'd wanted to build my own computer from scratch, I could quite easily have done so, as I've made two that way when I was a regular PC user before moving over to a Mac, but I am really pressed for time right now, so I decided against it and let Dell build it for me and I am very pleased with the result.
With regard to X1's interface, I really doubt that Cakewalk changed the GUI to upset people, make it look more attractive or dumb-it-down just to attract a few new users while not caring for it's already established user base. Why would they? From what I've seen, Cakewalk did more business last year than Ableton and Propellerhead put together, so as things are looking so good for them right now, it would be stupid to risk losing Sonar's long established followers just for the sake of attracting a few new ones here and there.
Let me finish up by posing a question, but before I do, I feel the need to make the following statement very clear:
Even though I will never see things the way a long-term, experienced, professional Sonar user will with regards to the changes made with the new Skylight interface, and I am very sure that nothing I say here will ever change the mind of those users who wish to make it very clear that they don't like X1 as much as previous versions of Sonar and (quite possibly) never will, I do completely respect your views.
So, that said, I put this question to you: "How long can this kind of argument over X1 go on and what do you really believe it will change in X1 in the long-term?"
I've seen this kind of thing before on Apple's forum when they dramatically changed the look of Logic Pro from v7 to v8 - and it's taken almost 4 years of what could be seen as pointless debate to finally come to an end, as Apple were never (NEVER) going to do anything about it, were they?
So, how long do you think the Sonar to X1 debate will last over on this forum?
Collandra you did nothing wrong nor did you start anything. I find the remarks of Twiggy and Mike to be rude and totally wrong as well as inappropriate for a thread of this sort. I welcome you here and hope you find X1 all that you want it to be. Any questions please ask. To hit someone with its "dumbed down" or "off the shelf computer" in answer to the topic is a serious breach of common courtesy. It needs to stop. Why they feel compelled to post this stuff is something only their therapist can know.
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Twigman
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:28:38
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John
To hit someone with its "dumbed down" .......Why they feel compelled to post this stuff i...
Because it's true.
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M@ B
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:37:57
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Collandra
Hmm, it seems I may have started something here, which was not my intention! I just wanted to express my opinion of X1 and why I want to buy it and use it for my productions and remixes rather than anything else...
So, how long do you think the Sonar to X1 debate will last over on this forum?
first i'd like to say welcome to the forum, ...and 2nd, don't worry about it collandra, you didn't start anything. unfortunately the pessimism appears to have a half life longer than plutonium. take it with a grain of salt. enjoy and happy music making, m@
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subtlearts
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:44:19
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Twigman
John
To hit someone with its "dumbed down" .......Why they feel compelled to post this stuff i... Because it's true.
no, it's opinion. you're welcome to yours, and you're welcome to express it, but it does get boring and frustrating when every single thread eventually gets pounded down into a pointless battle between those using, enjoying and trying to trade helpful information about the software that this forum is about, and those who seem to see the entire thing as a venue for them to rant about how everything sucks. I am sorry for those that don't agree with the direction CW have chosen to take with their flagship DAW, but the ship has now sailed people. Many of us like it. We're not idiots. While you're entitled to your opinion and welcome to express it and I support your right to do so, I have to ask - at this point, what is the point? What are you guys getting out of this? I am not saying that you need to leave 'happy threads' alone. I'm saying that relentlessly and pedantically spouting the same 'dumbed down' line over and over and over again does nothing to improve the product or help anyone or raise the tone here. Quite the contrary in fact. So if that's all you have to say, cool - you've said it. Can you really not stand it that not everyone agrees with you?
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John
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:53:24
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Great post Tobias. You said it better then I did by far.
Let this be the end of it.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:53:55
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John,
I will not submit to your attempts to contextualize the content of a thread. Not only is that boorishly rude... it is down right un American. You are, of course, free to say any old ridiculous thing you wish. You lucky citizen. :-)
With regards to an off the shelf DAW. It may be helpful to anyone coming over from an Apple branded appliance to learn that PC DAWs work very well, but that they work their very best when they are optimized for use as a DAW.
The incredibly wide array of motherboards, chipsets and components provides many good options and the very best DAWs are usually assembled at custom houses that constantly research and test the available parts for suitability in a DAW.
Furthermore, many hardware, software, and firmware features available on a PC cause inconvenient conflicts with a DAW.
Worse yet, most store bought DAWs come with a plethora of extra applications and utilities that create layers of redundancy and impact the potential to use a DAW at full speed.
In fact, when I buy store bought computers for our office work I spend almost a day taking the extra ware off before I place the system in service. I bought a Toshiba Laptop just last week.
That is a way of life for many PC users and it is something that Mac users don't seem to ever have to worry about.
Collandra,
If you had happened to stop by and ask about a PC system before your purchase many of us might have recomended that you commission a dedicated DAW or perhaps build your own.
In any event you will get lots of help getting your Dell tweaked for SONAR but watch out for the fan boys... they will not be able help you with a real problem... mainly because they deny the fact that real problems exist... instead, they will be preoccupied with showing you that they have memorized the 1800 page manual by rote. I know that seems harsh... but in time you learn that I am being, relatively speaking, polite to my buddy John.
best regards,
mike
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RogerH
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 11:56:51
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Welcome Collandra.
I really like the new GUI and I think Cakewalk did a good job with the redesign, but it's not perfect yet.
I hope you get a very positive experience with the new DAW.
A song from my band: Terramater My soundcloud pageSonar Platinum Windows 7 Professional (SP1) 64Bit Intel Core i7 Quad Processor i7-2600K 3,4GHz MSI P67A-C45 (MOBO) Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600MHz 8GB CL9 (2x4GB) Seagate Barracuda® 7200.12 1TB Seagate Barracuda® XT 2TB
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 12:06:38
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subtlearts
Twigman
John
To hit someone with its "dumbed down" .......Why they feel compelled to post this stuff i... Because it's true.
no, it's opinion. you're welcome to yours, and you're welcome to express it, but it does get boring and frustrating when every single thread eventually gets pounded down into a pointless battle between those using, enjoying and trying to trade helpful information about the software that this forum is about, and those who seem to see the entire thing as a venue for them to rant about how everything sucks. I am sorry for those that don't agree with the direction CW have chosen to take with their flagship DAW, but the ship has now sailed people. Many of us like it. We're not idiots. While you're entitled to your opinion and welcome to express it and I support your right to do so, I have to ask - at this point, what is the point? What are you guys getting out of this?
I am not saying that you need to leave 'happy threads' alone. I'm saying that relentlessly and pedantically spouting the same 'dumbed down' line over and over and over again does nothing to improve the product or help anyone or raise the tone here. Quite the contrary in fact. So if that's all you have to say, cool - you've said it. Can you really not stand it that not everyone agrees with you?
I think that's a really good post. Same here - all due respect but pick your battles and they don't have to be fought in every thread. It also helps to know when the war is over, and I,m pretty sure it ended with the release of X1.
Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
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subtlearts
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 12:08:53
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mike_mccue
in time you learn that I am being, relatively speaking, polite to my buddy John.
... if polite were another word for condescending and inaccurate, that is. John is regularly one of the most helpful people here. However he riles some people by being generally positive and enthusiastic. If that bothers you, you're free to block him. Just sayin', mike...
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 12:09:23
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mike_mccue
J
Collandra,
If you had happened to stop by and ask about a PC system before your purchase many of us might have recomended that you commission a dedicated DAW or perhaps build your own.
In any event you will get lots of help getting your Dell tweaked for SONAR but watch out for the fan boys... they will not be able help you with a real problem... mainly because they deny the fact that real problems exist... instead, they will be preoccupied with showing you that they have memorized the 1800 page manual by rote. I know that seems harsh... but in time you learn that I am being, relatively speaking, polite to my buddy John.
best regards,
mike
Good point about store bought computers used for DAWs. I was going to suggest a DAW by one of the star Audio guys but I see you already bought your computer. Perhaps your friend who has X1 has a similar configuration and you won't have problems related specifically to your Dell. And like Mike says there's lot of help on this board.
Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
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John
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 12:20:39
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Guys Mike and I go back a long way. In the past we agree on most all things we have talked about. Mike is also one of the main people handing out solid advice.
Here we depart in how we view X1. I like it. He doesn't. Its that simple.
No need to block anyone here or even think about it.
I just don't like the posting of anti X1 propaganda when it serves no purpose.
I also don't like the remarks made that I saw as a rebuke of the OP for buying into X1. Its as if no happy user can say anything without a counter to it.
On forums passions can get high but in the end we are all in this together and we will all find a way to be of help to each other. Give it time and all will be well.
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subtlearts
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 12:26:55
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No worries. I've been around a while too and have seen you be very helpful on many many occasions and didn't like the patronizing tone - I generally don't like it, truth be told, but it's certainly true that Mike knows what he's talking about most of the time. I don't need to get involved in anyone else's battles and I know you can fight your own. Maybe battles is the wrong word, but I didn't see what was written as being particularly polite.
(And, umm, I'm pretty sure I'm entitled to my opinion on that too...)
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 12:31:21
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"To hit someone with its "dumbed down" or "off the shelf computer" in answer to the topic is a serious breach of common courtesy. It needs to stop. Why they feel compelled to post this stuff is something only their therapist can know."
John, I know you think you are smart and all that but you should probably figure out that the OP never posed a question. The OP was a synopsis and commentary on a product that apparently has yet to actually be experienced first hand by the author. So, in fact... my comments can hardly be called an answer.
The suggestion that I have/need a therapist is just typical of your methodology of attempting to goad someone into reducing themselves to your level of incoherence.
I will readily admit that I can reflect an impression of rudeness back upon someone as hostile as yourself.
So here goes:
I feel that your trademark "who me?" method of acting like a boorish thug is repulsive. I also feel that you think you are getting away with it. It seems as if you have no interest in realizing how callous and inconsiderate you routinely act. You are not going to upset me and get me to make statements that I will regret. Over the past years I have repeatedly observed that this is your favorite technique of disagreement. I will simply explain that I have, for many years, found you to be consistently rude and trollish. Your repeated implications that people that do not share your opinions do not belong at this forum are intolerable and so I will, within the confines of the TOS express my opinion that you are, in my personal opinion, absolutely the rudest person I have ever encountered here at this forum. I expect that you are familiar with the fact that I have in the past lent you my support against some of your most emotionally charged critics. You have successfully goaded many people into seeming incredibly rude and reacting poorly. My estimation that you surpass anyone who I have witnessed to date is a very high standard to have achieved.
Good day to you sir.
regards,
mike
PS a quick note of reminder to the mods when John reports me... the above is a direct response to John's suggestion that I have/need a therapist. My threapist told me I don't have to accept that sort of criticism form a guy like John. ;-)
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John
Forum Host
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 12:32:14
(permalink)
You sure are.  But I thank you just the same for the comments.
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Mooch4056
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 12:35:16
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From Now On Call Me Conquistador!
Donate to the cure Bapu Foundation Email: mooch4056@gmail.com for more info
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Twigman
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 12:39:18
(permalink)
Mooch4056
When is lunch?
It was 5 hours ago. You missed it.
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subtlearts
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 12:41:43
(permalink)
To the OP: I tried to warn you. Sorry that your thread became a case in point.
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skullsession
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Re:Shock Headline - Mac user buys PC just for X1!
2011/04/06 13:21:51
(permalink)
mike_mccue
....So here goes:
I feel that your trademark "who me?" method of acting like a boorish thug is repulsive. I also feel that you think you are getting away with it. It seems as if you have no interest in realizing how callous and inconsiderate you routinely act. You are not going to upset me and get me to make statements that I will regret. Over the past years I have repeatedly observed that this is your favorite technique of disagreement. I will simply explain that I have, for many years, found you to be consistently rude and trollish. Your repeated implications that people that do not share your opinions do not belong at this forum are intolerable and so I will, within the confines of the TOS express my opinion that you are, in my personal opinion, absolutely the rudest person I have ever encountered here at this forum. I expect that you are familiar with the fact that I have in the past lent you my support against some of your most emotionally charged critics. You have successfully goaded many people into seeming incredibly rude and reacting poorly. My estimation that you surpass anyone who I have witnessed to date is a very high standard to have achieved.
I wonder if that's too long for my signature.
HOOK: Skullsessions.com / Darwins God Album "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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