Slate Digital, Waves or Nothing

SPLAT offers a lot in the bundle.  Yes, I think there are some "better/different" sounding options from other packages.  But if you can get fully pro-sounding results with what comes with Sonar.
 
What areas do you feel the need to process "in the box" if you are focused on good that the source in your recordings?  I'd say that is the area where you should focus to determine what might be improved and my how much.
 
Waves offers 7 day trials.
 
What is the Slate offer (that includes ownership) that is too good to pass up? I personally haven't seen anything.
 
Izotope is also a major player in the space with some useful tools depending on what you need to accomplish.
 
Noise reduction plugins is something SPLAT lacks.     
 

I did a mix using Sonar Prochannel only. Then I did the same mix with only Slate plug ins. Night and day. Slate plug ins for me sounded far above anything I used in Sonar. Softube makes really good stuff too, and I believe they also have a subscription service.

ampfixer

pathos

bitflipper
Steely Dan didn't have any plugins from Waves, Slate, Fabfilter or iZotope. They managed.

Do you know that for a fact? 
I wonder if they ever used Sonar too? Please tell us.

When Steely Dan was in it's prime, they didn't have computers outside of big business and the Govt.

So what?
When the tech came along they did. They worked with Pro Tools on later releases, maybe not exclusively but they were familiar with it.

I am really enjoying the Neutron plug in from Isotope. Also Ozone 7 Elements. Plenty of vids on YouTube showing then in action.

True. I merely used Steely Dan as reference material for the type of sound and genre of music I typically produce. BTW, Steely Dan was an early adopter of digital technology, although they used the technique I still subscribe to, get excellent analog quality on capture with great outboard gear. If you do that it doesn't take a lot of gear to "fix it in the mix". I remember reading production articles in Mix and EQ mag back in the day and still like that approach. A great song, great musicians and good capture is 80-90% of the job. Great mixing and mastering won't fix a bad song, bad musicians or sloppy capture on poor gear and converters.

Ok, for what it is worth here is my opinion. Firstly, Sonar or Splat whatever you want to call Cakewalk's DAW does indeed have everything a Newb could want or need to create great music out of the box. For many years, I was very happy with Cake's offering. From PySyn and Zt3a to the ProChannel effects, and more recently...probably one of the best brickwall limiters' on the market - The Adaptive Limiter. 
 
For me, I was happy...then I started to buy Wave's plugs...mainly because their always offering their best fair at 30 bucks...only a couple of weeks ago I got Reel ADT and an API compressor for just over 60 bucks Oz. I then stared to hear subtle differences, for example Cake's console emulation plugs, which isn't too bad until you hear Wave's NLS summing console emulator. The big difference between both console emulation effects though, was in the instruction manual...for the life of me I still can't control Cake's console emulation effect, yep I can make it work by accident it would seem sometimes, but Wave's NLS emulation was a revelation because it explained how and when to use the plug - either as a summing amp or as a preamp - yes obvious, but when it is not explicitly set out...you can struggle.
 
Cake's offering also doesn't have a 20db boost mic preamp button, and this is really cool if for instance like me you use Notion by Presonus (sorry cake). When writing out a score using dynamic markers...the final audio bounce can be very low volume wise. A couple of months ago...by accident, I figured out that by engaging the mic boost button, and by using Wave's NLS emulation plug as a preamp in these types of pieces...I was able to fix all the problems associated with sampled virtual orchestral instruments...well to my ears anyway. Another cool thing about Wave's NLS plug is it teaches you proper gain staging...again something missing from Cake's offering. Wave's NLS, because of the way the VU meter is set, literally points out where the sweet spot is. You can't go too far over or under otherwise the plug won't add the special sauce.
 
The idea of setting the audio level to get the most out of a plug is important, but only if you're going to do what I do which is emulate the signal chain of classic recordings...and this is my point really. If you're a newb, and you're still towing the hybrid line, where your recordings are an amalgam of live and virtual, and you're not interested in mastering the analogue emulation aesthetic...then Sonar's offerings will suffice. Like John suggests in the above post, if you've got Sonar's full offering of plugs and you can't get a decent sound out of those...then you're barking up the wrong tree buying a slew of new plugs. Remember, each virtual effect is like an instrument and indeed when the 'real' world analogue effects came into being over the last 50 years...like a musician mastering an instrument, it can take years to master really complex affects and to hear what that effect is adding to the mix. But here is the thing, if you're like me and you're trying to emulate what are considered the best recordings of the last 50 years...think Sgt Pepper, Abbey Road, Dark Side of The Moon and even Queen's A Night At The Opera...then you're going to need special plugs to do so. And Wave's are a cut above the rest for this, because they have gotton hold of the original pieces of equipment to model their effects. Let me just say, when I got the TG12345 channel strip as used by The Beatles on Abbey Road, or indeed the earlier Redd Channel strip...I was instantly transported back to these classic albums. They also taught me new ideas and techniques about mixing, which I would not have got using any of the propriety effects which come with all DAWs. The Redd channel strip for instance, has only low and high tone cut/boost, which might seem limiting..but if you're mixing a simple track...say an acoustic, vox, bass...maybe some special effects, having an EQ with all the bells and whistle means like me when I was a newb I would mess up the sound by adding or cutting too much. You don't make this mistake when you use a limited EQ like the Redd. 
 
Remember though, if you start down the path of emulating the signal chain of classic albums, there is no half-way safe point, you will need the whole kit and caboodle. So a typical audio track signal chain for me, if I'm using the NLS as a summing amp would be a channel strip...I have five types of emulated channel strips lol...The Redd, the TG12345, the SSLG console, a Neve and finally Olympic Studios Pye offerings. Depending on the type of mix I'm working on, it becomes easy to choose a channel strip...classical or acoustic for example would be the Redd. For pop, and particularly on Vox the TG12345 ect. I would then place the NLS plug over the top and dial in 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion. And until you can hear the 'special' sauce...you're pissing in the wind with this sort of stuff. Finally to really hammer home the idea of emulating the signal chain of classic recordings...I will set up drum and string aux tracks and feed the individual instruments to this aux. Over the top, as it would have been in the glory days of analogue...I place an EQ, then I use Wave's J37 tape sim which is the bomb by the way, and finally another NLS console plug. I don't really use the drive at this point, but it is needed because we're adding in noise and each channel on a 'real' world desk would have added extraneous noise in a similar fashion. Then, lol, I will feed the aux track into a buss where I will add another NLS summing plug...this time a buss version, sometimes maybe I will add drive, and finally a tasty compressor. Just like a signal chain from an analogue studio. The idea of a tasty compressor is important too, because once you understand what a tasty compressor can add...you then realize what is missing from all DAWs and their proprietary effects list. This is missing from a lot of people's understanding in regards to digital audio today, what type of tasty effect to use and when :).
 
Finally, Finally :) because I don't want Cake to think I'm some Wave's stooge, I have two plugs that are a must from Sonar...the aforementioned Adaptive Limiter, which took me about 3 months to really understand and master - it's the swiss army knife of brickwall limiters. And second Sonar's Prochannel Tape Sim oh and Tube emulation. I use the tape sim on sampled drums, you can squash the bejesus out of sampled drums, which emulates the analogue sound that everyone loves in regards to drums...and unlike Wave's tape sims, Sonar's doesn't distort...probably because it isn't as well written but that is another 1000 word essay ;). I love the tube sim too, on vox and anything real. I use it as an levelling amp mainly, because I still record fairly hot into Sonar (another 1000 word essay). But if you listen really carefully you can hear when the sheen of the instrument or the formant come through. The tube sim also helps with the signal path emulation idea, because all the classic recordings we all know and love contain 2nd and 3rd THD or odd and even...by adding at the very beginning of the signal chain - even harmonic distortion - which tubes are...you're emulating the tube mics contained on those recordings, which were then fed into either a tube console i.e. The Redd (more even harmonic distortion), or a solid state console i.e. the SSL. The key to the analogue emulation aesthetic is to record as dead as possible. So if you're told you need a ridiculously priced tube mic, my way eliminates this...because you don't want any special sauce on the way in :). In fact, I use nothing more than an 80 dollar peavy mic for vocals, but I can sing...4 to 5 (when I was a bit younger...more like 4 now) octaves lol.
 
I hope this answers your question.
 
Ben               

My (current) personal preferences for plugs are:

Waves SSL console - the strip is great for dialing in EQ by ear only and the bus compressor is fantastic

Fabfilter ProQ2 EQ - this is a joy to use and (IMHO) an upgrade to the Pro Channel Quad EQ


I have just got the CLA Classic Compressors as I wanted a bit of a choice and I also plan to upgrade my reverbs

I am looking at the Valhalla Room and Plate plugs as I am hearing great things about these and they are very reasonably priced

rmfegley
 
Yeah, Steely Dan didn't need no fancy pants plugins. They made do with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of state of the art hardware, the most talented and experienced musicians and engineers in the business and virtually limitless studio time. 

 
First of all, this was hilarious and spot on... I can't verify this independently but I've heard it said, and it seems plausible, that Aja was the first album that cost more than $1million to make. You can buy a *lot* of plugins for that. 
 
Second, yeah, this discussion comes up frequently and many cogent things have been said on the subject, and there are a lot of factors. Certainly it's entirely possible to do nearly anything you can imagine in the way of 'normal' recording/producing/mixing/mastering tasks entirely within the confines of what Sonar, particularly in its Platinum flavour provides. If you know your way around the tools you can make it sound pretty gosh-darn good, too, without adding any outside plugins. 
 
However... if I may... let's use a metaphor here: producing music is a lot like cooking. There are a lot of different ways of cooking in the world, and a lot of different styles of food, and a lot of different flavours and spices and specialized ingredients. There are also a lot of excellent chefs, and they all have different tools, techniques, special or favourite ingredients and spices that they use to do what they do. There is no *right* way of cooking, generally (though there are often numerous *wrong* ways, but even there - it's sometimes possible to get great results by doing things wrong, whether on purpose or in the 'happy accident' sense), and no *right* tool for any given job. 
 
A great chef will likely be able to cook a very good meal with nearly any set of tools or ingredients, but in his or her own kitchen with all the the tools, spices, ingredients etc. that s/he is accustomed to, you're more likely to get a *great* meal. That isn't to say that those specific tools/ingredients/spices (whatever, the metaphor is getting stretched thin at this point) are absolutely required for any chef to make a great meal... you get the idea. 
 
It also doesn't mean that anyone with that set of tools/ingredients will be able to create a great meal. It *definitely* doesn't mean that you need ALL the special tools and ingredients and spices that ALL the great chefs swear by - they certainly don't have all of them, and wouldn't use them all if they did. They have and use the ones they know will get them the results they want in the way they are accustomed to working, fast and reliably. 
 
So here's the drill. The marketing departments of Waves, FabFilter, SoundToys, iZotope, Native Instruments, IK Multimedia, and so on, are paid to make you want the products those companies make. The products may or may not be excellent - I've got stuff from all of them, and most I think are great, and some I even use a lot. I've been stuck in GAS loops from time to time (Gear Acquisition Syndrome, for any unfamiliar with the term) and sometimes I end up with something that is really inspiring and useful, other times I spend a bunch of money for something that seems awesome and indispensible, but I never end up using (but someone else might use on every track). So it goes. 
 
So... isn't it great that Sonar (and every other major DAW including, finally, unbelievably, Reason) gives you the option? It's like an amazing, fully-appointed high-end kitchen with a solid set of tools - some of which, like the above-mentioned Adaptive limiter, are on par with just about anything out there - that any decent chef can use to get great results, *but* it's also possible to bring in whatever else you think is essential to working however you want.
 
For example, I have a penchant for kind of wacko, out-there experimental sounds and processing, for which I would have to stretch the tools in Sonar pretty hard to get close to but which something like NI's Molekular or Melda's MGranularMB make easy and fun to experiment with. I like RapturePro very much but as flexible and powerful as it is, I also have a raft of synths from NI, Arturia and others to play with, and while I could certainly make music without them I wouldn't choose to - sometimes I fire up Iris, or Razor, or Loom, my new plaything MPowerSynth, and hit some randomizer buttons until something sparks and I'm off to the races. That's my way of working, but might not work at all for someone else, but they might feel that mixing without Slate's VCC is *impossible*, whereas I have no need for it whatsoever. 
 
So there you go. If you're relatively new to cooking - err, music production, I'd say Don't Believe The Hype, stick with the great set of tools in Sonar and get used to them, there's a whole lot there and a whole lot to learn. You don't *need* anything else, and it will arguably only distract you. But past a certain point, sometimes a new flavour or spice or very cool tool will inspire you and open a door to a sound or a way of working you wouldn't have found without it, and that's how we grow. 

About a year ago during an update marathon I decided to pop the gas bubble and create my own "standard toolkit" that I could use across multiple DAWs. It's made up of mostly iZotope products and so far so good. No iLok, no dongle, no monthly fee....
 

subtlearts
 
That said, Ozone7 is kind of amazing, and Neutron is pretty cool too, and aren't you all wondering what this O8N2 business they're currently teasing is all about?
 
Oh snap, I just checked and they've announced it. I'm doomed... 

If they continue to offer loyalty pricing on those bundles I am in!

Steely Dan had producers, engineers, acousticaly treated studios and the best of gear also. So it's hardly the point. We are talking about the application of plug-ins. You can use the built-in eq, compressors and tools used in Sonar. Maybe they don't have fancy graphics but less is more no?
 

Jeff Evans
Are you aware that with the Slate Deal you will have to pay every month or every year, all the time once you get into it.  Every year/month as fast as I can see.  Ongoing.  It is also iLok. My son got into it and regretted it. The iLok has caused him some issues. 
 
At least with Waves plugs you own them. If there is anything about the subscription model you don't like then maybe reconsider. 
 
 

Are you aware that you can just buy Slate Plugins? 
 
I've been using my iLok2 since it came out. Not one single problem. Yet, I still have a spare iLok2 and I pay the $30 insurance every year.
 

Oh, just one more thing...

I use Guitar Rig for my amp sim because I've had it since long before Sonar included the THD amp sim, and don't see any reason to switch. One day when I've got some spare time I'll fool around with it.
 
And also as John mentioned, virtual instruments are a different story and I use third party instruments most of the time, occasionally using AD2 (really a bundled third party plugin) and Z3ta+
 

bitflipper
Steely Dan didn't have any plugins from Waves, Slate, Fabfilter or iZotope. They managed.

Yeah, but they had a full-blown studio, and the money to afford it.  Oh, and this quote with Gary Katz at AudioFanzine:
 
If the digital tools we have today were available when you were working with Steely Dan, how would it have changed their recordings?
We would have saved millions of dollars. If you can sing one chorus and fly it everywhere you want, instead of having to sing every note of every double or triple. Yeah, it would have saved us a lot of time, money, and wear and tear. It was a big deal to us. We made records where there were choruses that would repeat often — here, there — if we could have just flown them in.

Anderton
Just to put things in perspective, I think the importance of plug-ins pales in comparison to the importance of the audio in the tracks themselves. This isn't to say there aren't subtle differences among plug-ins, or desirable plug-ins other companies make that have no equivalent in SONAR.
 
However, when you put reverb on a vocal, what matters to the listener is the vocal, not the reverb. So overall, plug-ins may help make us feel better about a recording, which has value in itself. As to whether they make any difference to listeners, it's probably not that significant.

These are very good words.  I know you're asking about plugins in particular, but they aren't the most critical factor in your recordings.  Craig said "I think the importance of plug-ins pales in comparison to the importance of the audio in the tracks themselves."  That, for me, says it all.  Since you're using mics to record I would offer that the most critical component in getting great audio is your room.  A bad sounding room will always mean bad sounding recordings.  If your room isn't treated then take a look at that first.  Then, in no particular order, other components to consider are your mics, your pre-amps, your speakers, your recording skills, your mixing skills and your plugins.  I would offer that the way to proceed is to identify your weakest link and fix it first.  If that happens to be plugins then I vote for Waves. 
 
I wish you the best of luck with your music!