guitartrek
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/03 20:57:26
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Carl - Thanks. (BTW I bought Hidden Symmetry a while back - some killer tracks bro!) I've heard the same things from others about VEPro - how they use it for everything. I'm using the regular VE that I got with Special Edition and it is very cool. I did download the Demo VEPro to see if Play would crash it in bootcamp, and it did, but I can see the power in it. Isn't VEPro used as a Plugin? The regular VE is a plugin so when you open up a Sonar project, it starts loading everything and when you close the project it closes down too. How do you keep it open all day? And I checked - VEPro still comes with the "epic orchestra".
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Zo
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/03 20:57:56
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it's at this price time to time in the years in Audio deluxe and others ...and yep i was talking during black friday also
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ltb
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/03 23:12:33
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guitartrek
Carl - Thanks. (BTW I bought Hidden Symmetry a while back - some killer tracks bro!) I've heard the same things from others about VEPro - how they use it for everything. I'm using the regular VE that I got with Special Edition and it is very cool. I did download the Demo VEPro to see if Play would crash it in bootcamp, and it did, but I can see the power in it. Isn't VEPro used as a Plugin? The regular VE is a plugin so when you open up a Sonar project, it starts loading everything and when you close the project it closes down too. How do you keep it open all day? And I checked - VEPro still comes with the "epic orchestra".
Thanks, learned so much since I did all those tracks back in 2001. You can load instruments, MIR inside your daw but to keep it open you need to run it using VEP Server. Check the vids & manual. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCoagnXH1a8 Briefly- 1- open the VEP Sever & add channels, load vi's etc.. I'd suggest to save it as both a metaframe or project & in steps. 2- open your daw & add ONE instance of VEP's 'Server Interface' plugin. 3-add instances of the 'Event Input' plugin (1-8) then route midi channels in the daw to correspond to VEP where your have all your vi's loaded (Kontakt, Play etc.) The audio gets routed back into your daw. (recommended that no more than audio 32 in + out channels & 8 instances of the event plugin for one opened VEP project) When finished with the project raise the 'Server Interface' instance, select 'disconnect' save & close the project. VEP is still up with all the samples loaded. When you open the next project simply select 'connect' again & any previous routed projects are ready to go. No reloading all those GB's of samples over again. For orchestral projects I use one big VEP metaframe consisting of 8 Event Inputs in the daw (8 x 16 / 128 total midi channels) I edit, automate all the midi tracks in my daw, run eq's, comps, additional routed buses ( & MIR ) in VEP's mixer then bounce it all down using a single 1/2 out back into my daw. I also no longer need or use separate audio tracks for all those midi / vi tracks. I mix them all in real-time then bounce. That audio track ends up as being what I call my 'Orch' stem. 'Band' type instruments & tracks ( gtrs, drums, bass, keys) get recorded inside the daw. I have 'Band' metaframes with all my drum kits & synths which can be loaded in VEP all at once & left open for the entire session. I use mostly in Cubase now but it worked fine in X1 when I first got it. I do remember setting it up & getting it to work In Sonar was very confusing though. Like all software it has glitches & abnormalities but I really like using it. Hope you get to work with the demo, that's the only to see if it will be useful for your work.
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guitartrek
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/04 12:39:32
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Thanks Carl for sharing your work flow. That makes sense to me and I can see how it could be very useful. I would probably set it up similar to yours bringing in the orchestral stuff in just a couple stereo audio tracks, and leaving the traditional rock instrumentation the way I've got it. I'm doing that with Play and VSL right now. I might put Trilian and Superior in VEPro to reduce load time. But with this new SSD load times are super fast for those smaller libraries. However the advantage would be that I could use the same setup in Sonar and Logic. That is very intriguing.
Just curious - which orchestral libraries do you like to use? I started with EW and then VSL but you never know which is the best until you work with them. And it gets expensive to try them all.
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ltb
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/04 14:44:54
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guitartrek
Just curious - which orchestral libraries do you like to use? I started with EW and then VSL but you never know which is the best until you work with them. And it gets expensive to try them all.
Yep, it gets real pricey so for my budget I use a combo of basic but good libs. My default VEP orchestral project or metaframe loads up samples & presets from VSL Opus, Epic Horns, Solo Strings, Epic Orchestra, Spitfire Albion, Project Sam Orch Brass Classic, Sam Orch. Essentials, Hollywood Strings & Brass silver, CineSamples CineOrch, SoundIron Choirs + others. Speaking of budget & if you don't already have it here's the free Pocket Solo Cello for Kontakt. I keep it in my strings section, nice sound- comes in handy. http://www.asinusadlyram.com/pocketBlakus/
post edited by carl - 2014/01/04 14:49:18
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guitartrek
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/04 22:22:12
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Nice selection. Some of those I don't recognize and will check into. I'd love to have the Hollywood series someday. The pocket Cello sounds fantastic. For free. Wow. I don't have Kontakt yet, but I should download the cello anyway, while its free.
post edited by guitartrek - 2014/01/04 22:28:56
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Zo
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/04 23:06:00
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So what's the final word about EW , play and sonar ? the EW ghostwriter thing is making want to get it but i hear mixed reviews about play engine and its satbility .....
of course no way to try EW play stuff ...
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Sycraft
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 00:50:06
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Zo
So what's the final word about EW , play and sonar ? the EW ghostwriter thing is making want to get it but i hear mixed reviews about play engine and its satbility .....
of course no way to try EW play stuff ...
There won't be a "final word" since different people have different experiences. There are those that use Play and Sonar and are happy. I'm just not one of them :P. My recommendation is to steer clear but if you do decide to try it, do it with a cheap product first. Also Play seems to hate fast bouncing, you get more problems with that, realtime bounce is slow but less problematic. That is true for all the DAWs not just Sonar. If you decide to try it just be ready that it might have problems, and they might not fix them since they seem to think their software is the best EVAR. Also don't buy it if there are features you need that aren't there yet. Their development cycle is the slowest in the universe it seems. Like if editing instruments is a must, then stay away. While they say they are developing Play Pro, which can edit things, they've been saying that for like 6 years and nothing has come out. So buy only on what you can get today, because you never know if or when something will come in the future.
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guitartrek
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 02:42:00
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Well, I had a couple issues with Play and Sonar. The first one was weird - it worked fine for 6 months then started crashing and corrupting Sonar files. EW didn't have a solution. Thank god Cakewalk support noticed in my crash dump that I was using Norton Anti Virus, and they told me to stop running it with Sonar. Of course I'd been using it for years with Sonar and NEVER had a problem. Sure enough I turned it off and started using Microsoft Essentials, and Play worked fine. The second problem is that Play crashes Sonar and VEP in Bootcamp. Play is the ONLY piece of software that doesn't work in bootcamp. EW support won't give me the time of day with this problem. I don't like Play. I think it is awkward to work with. For example: When you are setting up different instruments, lets say channel 1 through 8, if you don't load them in the right order you can never resort the instruments by channel number. Or lets say you loaded them in the right order, but you decide you want a different patch for the Violin which is channel 2. The new patch goes to the bottom of the list. The other thing is the articulations and keyswitches are not standardized between different instruments in SOGold. Like Violas and Violins have different articulations, and in the Keyswitch the same articulations may be different keys. Not well thought out. I guess the Hollywood series is more consistent. The bottom line for me is that I've got SOGold and Solo Violin in a bunch of projects which I've spent considerable time orchestrating. The sounds are really good for the most part. I can't reach the level of quality with VSL Special Edition. Maybe it's just me. But I'm going to stick with those sounds. They are really good and sit very well in the mix. I wish they could write better software. Oh I forgot - Play takes forever to load and doesn't support background loading. So you have to wait.
post edited by guitartrek - 2014/01/05 02:43:18
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Sycraft
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 05:05:33
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They did, supposedly, add background loading with Play 4.1. I haven't tried it since, well, screw Play I'm using Kontakt now :P. But it is there allegedly.
But yes, very slow on the loading. Part of it is they don't do sample compression, so that makes things slower, but also their software is just not fast at loading, even when comparing uncompressed samples. It is just not well written. Also might be an encryption thing, I don't know how their sample format works, since it is proprietary, but it wouldn't surprise me if they encrypted it since they are super paranoid about piracy. That would, of course, slow down things.
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guitartrek
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 10:47:24
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You're probably right about their encryption slowing things down. I've replicated the same set of instruments in VSL for some of my projects. VSL's samples are 24bit while SOGold is 16bit - the load times is VSL seem lightening fast. They also have a USB dongle for security. I don't know what VSL is doing but they are experts at software. VEPro is doing some very complex things and it is like a de-facto standard for composers using huge libraries. And their Instrument player is very well designed - so flexible. It does so much yet the design is so simple to understand.
It's too bad EW didn't just stick with Kontakt.
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Zo
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 11:09:34
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guyz i hear you with VSL , but their offers is so unclear !! if you want the equivalent of Orchestral essential or some like that : what to get
also i like the diffrent univers you can get with EW and some other Kontakt based lib , VSL is really all about orchestral that are not often used in my project ...just when needed here and there ....
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guitartrek
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 11:56:44
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You're right Zo. When I was first researching Orchestral Libraries I couldn't make sense out of VSL and chose EW partly because I couldn't understand VSL. EW Website seems easier to understand (except why do they call it SoundsOnline?). The problems I have with Play made me look closer. I wanted a "do all" orchestra, not bits and pieces. SOGold is like that (SOSilver is way too limited). And on the VSL line the closest equivalent is Special Edition Volume 1. That's where you start. You can always add: Special Edition Volume 1 plus, Special Edition Volume 2, Special Edition Volume 2 Plus, and so on - adding articulations and instruments along the way, but Volume 1 has all the basics. And you're right - EW has a lot of other stuff too. An unfortunate thing is EW requires and iLok and VSL requires the eLicenser dongle. (Steinberg system) So you may need a couple different kinds of dongles if you combine. You might be better off with Kontakt - I don't know I don't own it yet. It's a complex mind blowing dilemma - which one to buy first? Which company to invest in? These are expensive libraries and they each have plusses and minuses. And you don't really know unless you really try them and work with them.
post edited by guitartrek - 2014/01/05 12:01:55
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ltb
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 12:13:44
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Zo,
VSL, Orchestral Essentials & Albion.
They're are all good libs, just depends on budget & what you need.
I usually layer from several until it 'works'.
Briefly & very general here-
1-VSL traditional type orchestrations & styles, pop, ballad: dry & can use different verbs.
2-Albion- softer, film, new age, soundtrack, ambient, baked-in verb
3-Project Sam Orchetral Essentials- Film, soundtrack, good all purpose.
4-EW HS+HB for soundtrack, pop. I use these more to cut through a mix with band type or driving projects with gtrs, bass/ rock, fusion
And if you do look at EW I'd check out HS+ HB Silver on sale $99.00 each. Limited version but can't beat the price, works well for general use.
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guitartrek
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 12:38:29
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carl - Albion sounds fantastic.
I've got a question for you since you have so much more experience with this stuff than me. While I do like the SOGold sounds, one of my pet peeves is being able to control volume swells with realistic tonal changes. On a real stringed instrument or brass, as you hold a note and grow in volume, the highs will become brighter. With SOGold it seems the way that is prescribed is to use a combination of patches and do manual crossfades which is a pia and grows the track count - or - use one patch and just grow the volume with the expression controller, but you don't get realistic tonal changes. With VSL they've got a Velocity Crossfade which works really well on all instruments, so you don't always have to add tracks for the same instrument. My question is which libraries do a good job with this aspect? Albion sounds fantastic, but it's hard to know what's under the hood, and how complex the midi arrangement needs to be to get this realism?
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vintagevibe
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 12:46:39
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guitartrek
carl - Albion sounds fantastic.
I've got a question for you since you have so much more experience with this stuff than me. While I do like the SOGold sounds, one of my pet peeves is being able to control volume swells with realistic tonal changes. On a real stringed instrument or brass, as you hold a note and grow in volume, the highs will become brighter. With SOGold it seems the way that is prescribed is to use a combination of patches and do manual crossfades which is a pia and grows the track count - or - use one patch and just grow the volume with the expression controller, but you don't get realistic tonal changes. With VSL they've got a Velocity Crossfade which works really well on all instruments, so you don't always have to add tracks for the same instrument. My question is which libraries do a good job with this aspect? Albion sounds fantastic, but it's hard to know what's under the hood, and how complex the midi arrangement needs to be to get this realism?
Use velocity for volume swells or changes. That's what I do and the timber changes with volume. No need for any cross fades since the instruments were recorded at various volumes/velocities. I set CC7 (volume) for the overall volume of the track and do all my dynamics with velocity curves. The achieves what you are looking for and that is how the library was desingned to work.
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guitartrek
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 13:33:17
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Thanks vintagevibe. Just want to make sure I understand what you're saying - using velocity curves in Albion is like the VSL velocity crossfade? In SOGold, whatever velocity at of the midi note determines the timber, and then you can adjust only volume from there, which isn't good. Sounds like Albion is like VSL in that you can control intensity / timber of a long note using a velocity curve (not the midi on-note velocity). Correct?
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ltb
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 13:47:14
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Same here, I use mod CC1 for dynamics/ x fades, CC11 expression, sometimes main volume envelopes for typical fades & dims. CC 16 to change the speed between legatos. IIRC using the mod on the brass ensemble changes the timbre & vol. similar to EW, on the String Ensemble it's more volume. (or not as extreme or smoother) It also has a nice ostinatum feature you can use for certain articulations.
post edited by carl - 2014/01/05 13:54:41
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vintagevibe
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 13:51:21
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guitartrek
Thanks vintagevibe. Just want to make sure I understand what you're saying - using velocity curves in Albion is like the VSL velocity crossfade? In SOGold, whatever velocity at of the midi note determines the timber, and then you can adjust only volume from there, which isn't good. Sounds like Albion is like VSL in that you can control intensity / timber of a long note using a velocity curve (not the midi on-note velocity). Correct?
I think you are correct about SOGold. If Albion and VSL can change the timber of one note that is quite cool. I work mostly in Cubase and with note expressions I can assign a controller to a singe note but the VST has to support it and AFAIK SO doesn't.
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Zo
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 14:01:04
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I think some Komplete 9 Ultimate stuff uses modwehll for expression ...is that what you're trying to achieve ?
thks guyz for the feedback
I own K9 Ultimate , all Heavyocity , and REV from output ...in the kontakt world ...i don't think kontakt is that great but the lib dev offers is the most complete around !!!
I kept a good souvenir of the EW quality and ussually it sounding way better thant kontakt content (back in EW kontakt day ...tried those to see how it sounded)
What i like about Albion is that there's a volume for each style ....im' interested in the Albion 3 ... and also they provide additionnal sgoodies like dark synth sand all
Project Sam OE looks complete also ... in fact i want a good interface , simple with bread and butter when i need it .....it kills me to go thorw all the komplete stuff
The syncrosoft thing is a deal breaker for real ...as a owner of ilok .. i don't want another thing
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guitartrek
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 16:23:22
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Zo
I think some Komplete 9 Ultimate stuff uses modwehll for expression ...is that what you're trying to achieve ?
Probably. I don't own it so I don't know exactly how it works. If it raises volume and brightness / intensity at the same time, then yes. I probably should buy Kontakt one of these days.
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Vastman
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 21:19:06
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Zo
I think some Komplete 9 Ultimate stuff uses modwehll for expression ...is that what you're trying to achieve ?
thks guyz for the feedback
I own K9 Ultimate , all Heavyocity , and REV from output ...in the kontakt world ...i don't think kontakt is that great but the lib dev offers is the most complete around !!!
I kept a good souvenir of the EW quality and ussually it sounding way better thant kontakt content (back in EW kontakt day ...tried those to see how it sounded)
What i like about Albion is that there's a volume for each style ....im' interested in the Albion 3 ... and also they provide additionnal sgoodies like dark synth sand all
Project Sam OE looks complete also ... in fact i want a good interface , simple with bread and butter when i need it .....it kills me to go thorw all the komplete stuff
The syncrosoft thing is a deal breaker for real ...as a owner of ilok .. i don't want another thing
Zo: + 1 for Iceni... it's brilliant! Keep having to spend my meger funds elsewhere... now, interface upgrade...leaning towards Forte...but Iceni is next on my list! btw, ilok has improved their website, interface hugely just recently... it got a lot better and I actually support the concept as devs deserve to be paid...and it's portability is quite nice! Upgrading my system... ilok didn't care. Everything else? an all nighter!
Dana We make the future... Climate Change MusicVastMaschine:SP4L/W10/i74930K/32GB/RME/CAD E100s; The Orchestra! NOVO!/Inspire/BohemianViolin&Cello, ARK1&2,/MinimalCapriccioMaximoSoto/OE1&2, Action&Emotive/Omni2/Tril/RMX/All OrangeTree/Falcon/APE Jugs/Alpha&Bravo/BFD3 & SD3Gravity/DM307/AEON/DM/Damage/Diva/HZebra/Hive/Diversion/VC4/Serum/Alchemy/blablablaSpitfire/8DIO/SL/KH/EW/NI; Shred1&2/AGF,G,M&T Torch&Res&Ren/GD-6; Ibanez SR1200&SR505NOVAX FanFret Tele&Strat
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Zo
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/05 23:12:26
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Vastman , if you need test or infos about the forte , holla ;) i own one for albion i snet an email to spitfire the 12 of dec to get the edu price (as a teacher) and still no news lol i made 6 tracks since , i'm gonna finish the album before getting it !!! lol it was planned for production during Christmas holidayz ..lol
post edited by Zo - 2014/01/05 23:14:57
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Bajan Blue
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/06 04:14:09
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I have Play, latest version and use it in Sonar x3d - so far without any issues.
I did have some issues with Play about 3 / 4 years ago (sorry can't even remember what they were) but they sorted them out for me and were very helpful at the time.
Not had any issues since, so from Skycrafts problems sounds like things may have changed.
All I can say is that mine works and I am very happy with their stuff.
Nigel
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Zo
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/06 07:51:09
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Bajan Blue
I have Play, latest version and use it in Sonar x3d - so far without any issues.
I did have some issues with Play about 3 / 4 years ago (sorry can't even remember what they were) but they sorted them out for me and were very helpful at the time.
Not had any issues since, so from Skycrafts problems sounds like things may have changed.
All I can say is that mine works and I am very happy with their stuff.
Nigel
thks for the feedback
For sale (PM me) : transfert ilok includedEventide Ultrachannel make offersSoftube Summit EQIK Neve 1081 , Neve precision Comp/LimEastWest GoshtwriterSoundforge Pro 12
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vintagevibe
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/06 11:42:37
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Bajan Blue
I have Play, latest version and use it in Sonar x3d - so far without any issues.
I did have some issues with Play about 3 / 4 years ago (sorry can't even remember what they were) but they sorted them out for me and were very helpful at the time.
Not had any issues since, so from Skycrafts problems sounds like things may have changed.
All I can say is that mine works and I am very happy with their stuff.
Nigel
Same here. I'm not all that fond of the companie's attitude but I haven't had any major problems in a long time.
post edited by vintagevibe - 2014/01/06 14:49:22
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MachineClaw
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/06 19:43:22
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I have EastWest Symphony Orchestra Platinum. it's the big package with the 16bit/24bit and 3 mic positions.
I was "using" is with Sonar X1d pro and the Play 3 engine. it worked maybe 50% of the time. I was running a duo2core quad 2.4ghz with 8gb ram. it was sluggish, crash prone and just frustrating.
I've upgraded my computer to a i7 quad 3.5ghz with 16gb ram and Sonar X3b Pro and Play 4.1. it's not "as" sluggish (personally I think you could throw 64gb at PLAY and it would be sluggish, I've only had 2 crashes so far and that I think was my fault throwing too much at it - user error). I still find PLAY frustrating.
now that I've had some time with PLAY and EWSO if I could go back in time....I would buy Orchestra Essentials.
if you DO want to play in the EastWest library world I would highly recommend waiting to purchase any of their products ONLY when there is a HUGE 50% off sale - which they seem to run 2-3 times a year from what I've seen.
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Zo
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/06 23:47:57
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In fact i can apply for EDU price witch gives me the Complete composer around 400 Euros witch is great !! that's why i was thinking about that ....but sometime less is more ...like i pointed out some great goodies for me in the complete composer such as :
Voice of passion
Fab Four
Spaces
Storm drum ect ...
My bundle would have been
Complete orchestra Gold
Colossus
Storm drum
Fab four
Voices of passion
Spaces
Ministry of rock 2
For sale (PM me) : transfert ilok includedEventide Ultrachannel make offersSoftube Summit EQIK Neve 1081 , Neve precision Comp/LimEastWest GoshtwriterSoundforge Pro 12
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Zo
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/07 12:12:37
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i finally went for Albion 3 ...will report ....
Dloading as i write ;)
For sale (PM me) : transfert ilok includedEventide Ultrachannel make offersSoftube Summit EQIK Neve 1081 , Neve precision Comp/LimEastWest GoshtwriterSoundforge Pro 12
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Zo
Max Output Level: -25 dBFS
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Re: So more fun with EastWest and Play
2014/01/08 17:28:23
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A pure joy , exellent , what can i say , my quest is other my friends !!
For sale (PM me) : transfert ilok includedEventide Ultrachannel make offersSoftube Summit EQIK Neve 1081 , Neve precision Comp/LimEastWest GoshtwriterSoundforge Pro 12
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