Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons?

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garrigus
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/13 19:46:23 (permalink)
VSampler wasn't actually a Cakewalk product. It was created by a different company and then bundled with SONAR.

Scott

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#61
Lynn
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/13 20:08:50 (permalink)
garrigus


VSampler wasn't actually a Cakewalk product. It was created by a different company and then bundled with SONAR.

Scott

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True, as are several of the soft synths that come with Sonar now, I believe.  But, please correct me if I'm wrong.  The question is:  what will CW support in the future?  Although I wasn't a fan of Vsampler, I had friends that liked and used it, and they were disappointed when it was no longer included with Sonar.  Right now, as we go from a 32 bit universe to a 64 bit universe there are issues with the lack of support for the new format.  I think that it would be in CW's best interest to support those synths that they include with their software to the best of their ability.  Otherwise, it could be a turnoff to future customers if synths come and go.  One of the things I like about my Korg synths is the fact that over the years Korg kept improving the architecture and sounds of their products, while at the same time, anyone who could get around on a M1 can get around on a M3.  I hope that it goes so well for CW.
Best to all,
Lynn

All the best,
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#62
aleef
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/13 20:17:52 (permalink)
To the extent that the immense flexibility of synthesis can be harnessed, there is a potential (capability) to be more expressive than an acoustic instrument. The question is why this is not generally realized in synthetic music.

 
 
it has and the results were less than musical...or should i say people didnt care for the sound. you can come up with some new type of sound that gets peoples attention, doesn't mean it struck a chord with them..i have seen those keyboardist/synthesist on stage surrounded by 100 different synths, being an entire orchestra with all these electronic/synthetic washes of sound..its still just masterbatory pyro-gadgetry.
 
there is no more exteded range to reach for synthetically..all synthetic possibilities have been exhausted since 1985..your outlook is musically noble, but it sure is not new. just because synthesis can do everything and more doesnt mean it should.. i feel too much has been given to synthesis..it has replaced just about all the integral elements that make great records...

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#63
garrigus
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/13 21:00:31 (permalink)
Lynn


True, as are several of the soft synths that come with Sonar now, I believe.  But, please correct me if I'm wrong.  The question is:  what will CW support in the future?  Although I wasn't a fan of Vsampler, I had friends that liked and used it, and they were disappointed when it was no longer included with Sonar.  Right now, as we go from a 32 bit universe to a
My point was that since VSampler was from another company, Cakewalk didn't own it. And since they didn't own it, there was no guarantee it would be included in future versions. Any kind of bundled product like that could easily not be included in the future. Those kinds of things are usually deals made for a specific version and that's it. For future inclusion, another deal would have to be made and so on.

Scott

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#64
bitflipper
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 00:44:47 (permalink)
I forgot to mention that my (hardware) synthesizers are all 100% 64-bit compatible! For that matter, they'll also be 128-bit compatible when the time comes.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#65
Teksonik
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 07:57:03 (permalink)
bitflipper


I forgot to mention that my (hardware) synthesizers are all 100% 64-bit compatible! For that matter, they'll also be 128-bit compatible when the time comes.


You also forgot to mention how much you paid for your hardware and the fact that it's internal bit resolution is not likely to change.
#66
Jim Roseberry
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 10:32:31 (permalink)

You will never, ever see me on stage with a friggin' laptop!

 
I've been using soft-synths exclusively for all my live sounds for well over a year.
I use a Motif XS7 as a MIDI controller.  Not only is it better than any dedicated MIDI controller I've ever played, it also provides a backup tone-generator should the PC ever fail (which hasn't happened).
 
With about a dozen of the best soft-synths, I feel that my rig sounds better than it did when I used hardware synths (Fantom G, M3, Motif ES/XS)... and programming is a whole lot easier. 
I think the key to making the transition feel natural is getting more realtime control under the player's fingertips.
If you have the same level of control when playing live, playing soft-synths doesn't feel any different than using hardware.
 
IMO, We need far better dedicated MIDI controllers than the units currently available.
ie:  I'm currently shopping for a (somewhat) light-weight 88-key controller that has all the keyboard/controller features that you'd find on a top-tier workstation.
Sounds simple enough...
But I've yet to find a dedicated MIDI controller that plays/feels as good as the best Roland/Korg/Yamaha keybeds.
I'd like a reasonably light-weight 88-key controller (less than 50 pounds) with the best keybed available, nice large display, pitch/mod wheels, at least 8 knobs/sliders, ribon controller, and after-touch... and with road-worthy build quality.
Right now, the "controller" I like best is the Roland Fantom G 88.  I'm not crazy about spending $3200 for an 80 pound controller.
Take this unit... drop the synth engine... reduce the weight to about half... and reduce the cost to about half.
To me... that would be perfect.
 
post edited by Jim Roseberry - 2010/06/14 11:56:29

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#67
bitflipper
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 10:41:34 (permalink)
it's internal bit resolution is not likely to change

True, I'm stuck with 24-bit audio forever. Sigh.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#68
yorolpal
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 14:14:03 (permalink)
I dunno Bit, ol pal.  What if you just duct taped two of them together...wouldn't that be like 48 bits??

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#69
Jeff Evans
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 18:51:28 (permalink)
Dave just a little note that both Kurzweil and EMU use internal 32 bit processing. The effects are mainly at 24 bit as well. Not bad considering when these things reached their peak. Could explain why they sound so good too.

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#70
Teksonik
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 18:58:01 (permalink)
bitflipper



it's internal bit resolution is not likely to change

True, I'm stuck with 24-bit audio forever. Sigh.


You conveniently skipped the first part about cost.............
#71
John
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 19:33:17 (permalink)
I like the duck tape idea. A Red Green approach is appropriate.  

Best
John
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bitflipper
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 20:53:02 (permalink)
I tried duct tape, but it left sticky residue. And yes, Jeff, the Kurzweil is 32 bits internally, 24/48Khz out or S/PDIF - and I've got one of those, too. But the Yamaha at 24/44.1 still sounds better.

You conveniently skipped the first part about cost...


OK, Teksonik, you got me on that one. I admit, I do have a few bucks invested in hardware synths. About equal to one moderately high-end microphone, in fact.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#73
Jeff Evans
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 21:04:00 (permalink)
Dave I am wondering what sounds do you have for your Kurzweil. Are you using just the internal ROM sounds because that is a far cry from what it really can sound like. Your Yamaha may sound better than the internal Kurz memory (although I still find that hard to believe, but possible as the Yamaha may have an extended ROM)

You need a CD ROM attached and there are literally hundreds of CD ROM libraries for it. (Kurzweil and third party as well) I have got the CD ROM drive and most of the CD's and it sounds gob smacking. Sorry but no comparison to the Yamaha, leaves it in the dust I am afraid. I have some pretty impressive Yamaha keyboards here over time and none of them even came close!

The available library determines how good it sounds. And dont forget the Kurz reads Akai and Roland sounds too and they also sound awesome playing back through the Kurz sound engine.

Can your Yamaha read CD ROMS too? No it seems. Any hardware instrument that relies only on its internal ROM is severely limited. You may think 175 Meg of sound ROM is a lot but it pails compared to tens of gigs of raw materials available through a CD ROM drive.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2010/06/14 21:09:51

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#74
yorolpal
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 21:28:01 (permalink)
Yea, I sent a consciousness raisin memo to Electronic Musician magazine (you know, the one which...like MIX...has become the size of a grocery store circular) regarding their review of some new hardware synth or rompler thing that had...wait for it... 256 MEGS OF RAM!!!  I, being my usual perspicacious self, and, as always, tryin my dead level best to be helpful said why surely that there's a misprint fellers.  I'm quite shore you meant 256 GIGS OF RAM...or words to that effect.  Funny, they never did respond to me.  Not even to say "don't call me Shirley".  Probably got lost between servers or some such.
post edited by yorolpal - 2010/06/14 23:28:46

https://soundcloud.com/doghouse-riley/tracks 
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Where you come from is gone...where you thought you were goin to weren't never there...and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it.
 
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#75
Jeff Evans
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 21:58:45 (permalink)
It can get confusing. There is ROM  inside a hardware synth and RAM and sometimes ROM inside a sampler for example. Typical ROM can be 128 Meg or so but Dave's Yamaha has 175 Meg of ROM which is lot. Many patches can be ensued from that much ROM. Kurzweil only has 8 meg of internal ROM yet it yields 200 patches that are all very different and amazing. RAM is for loading samples into and typically 128 or maybe 256 Meg might be the limit there but that is also still a lot as it only has to hold sounds.

Of course virtual samplers running in 64 bit environments are able to access the gigs you are talking about yorolpal.  By the way I love your tracks on myspace too and especially
"Both Ends of Love' Its great!

But I do like Yamaha and Roland and Korg hardware synths too. They are nice. Dave's Yamaha sounds very good and Motif is a nice machine too. Of course these would be well suited to live gigs as loading sounds into Kurzweils or EMU samplers is not fun live. Personally I think Roland are the only Japanese maker that seem to come close to the elusive American sound from Kurz and EMU.

The other day I loaded Ensoniq patches into my EMU sampler and nearly fell off my seat. They were just amazing. Now there is an interesting instrument too. Also I have had a brief love affair with a Yamaha sampler (A3000) and also found it to be a beautiful sounding machine but alas it broke. NI Kontakt is the way to go I think!

On cost the time to buy great hardware is now. Older models I mean that still sound great but not worth anything anymore. Still plenty of EMU and Kurzweils for sale on ebay these days for next to nothing.

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#76
yorolpal
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/14 23:34:13 (permalink)
Thank you for the compliment, Jeff.  "Both Ends of Love" actually is a major key R&B tune called "The Wrong Ends of Love" by my ol pal  Jeff Grant...better known as Loveshadow in the remix community.  I stripped everything except the lead vocal off and, through the use of my ol pal Mel O'Dyne repurposed the song into a minor reggae about Trans-Gender relationship problems.  Glad you enjoyed.

https://soundcloud.com/doghouse-riley/tracks 
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lapieuvre
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/15 01:23:37 (permalink)
But I've yet to find a dedicated MIDI controller that plays/feels as good as the best Roland/Korg/Yamaha keybeds.
I'd like a reasonably light-weight 88-key controller (less than 50 pounds) with the best keybed available, nice large display, pitch/mod wheels, at least 8 knobs/sliders, ribon controller, and after-touch... and with road-worthy build quality.


Might want to check the Akai MPK88

As for Softsynths, the change was easy to make.  The best sound wins.  That is how I got to slowly abandon my hardware keyboards...

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#78
Teksonik
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/15 06:28:22 (permalink)
bitflipper

OK, Teksonik, you got me on that one. I admit, I do have a few bucks invested in hardware synths. About equal to one moderately high-end microphone, in fact.



I'm so sorry to hear that.  I've got far less invested in my computer based synth and it can do so much more...................


I'm just messin with you man. Everyone should use what works best for them. Really what I'm trying to say is that everything is hardware, it's just a different form factor. The signal that reaches the end of my S/PDIF cable is no different in practice than the signal at your Kurzweil's S/PDIF cable.  The quality and appeal of the sound of those two signals can be debated ad infinitum or ad nauseam but in the end........to each his own.
post edited by Teksonik - 2010/06/15 06:29:28
#79
Teksonik
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/15 06:36:19 (permalink)
There is a Hybrid option as well:

http://www.museresearch.com/
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Soft Synths vs Hardware (Triton) - Pros and Cons? 2010/06/15 14:25:55 (permalink)
Might want to check the Akai MPK88

 
Yeah... I know about the Akai   
Not the worst I've seen... but not in league with the best workstation keybeds.
Roland's Fantom G8 and their RD 700GXF "Super Natural" stage piano have the best feeling keybeds I've found... but they're $3200 and $2700 respectively.

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
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#81
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