lfm
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Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?[Reply from support - but not solved]
I followed helpfile topic Recording a soft synth's miid output" and the "To hear a soft synth's midi output through another track" "To record a soft synth's midi output through another track" 1. enable midi output, if not already 2. from another midi track select input to that midi out enabled synth 3. enable echo on that new midi track which in turn has output to another synth 4. what now comes out on that output should play on another track, to record it or just hear it as stated Not working - so I filed a bug report which was rejected and referred to contact support(with a sample project). Waiting over three weeks for a support reply - I got that yesterday. (if not with kind intervention of Andrew Rossa I would still be waiting) And instead of telling me how to do it - support wanted to know where in documentation it stated to do it that way which they stated were incorrect. So I'm asking you guys - how do you route midi out to anything useful like another synth to play in unison etc? In Studio One you do it like described above, and in Reaper it's a breeze having 16 midi buses(16 channels each) to send all over the project in any way you like - having multiple synths play from one clip is just adding another send and keep midi but disable audio(or how you like it). I really hoped that VST3 support in X3 would remove all the old routing hurdles. Thanks.
post edited by lfm - 2013/11/05 12:14:28
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auto_da_fe
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/02 10:29:20
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You have asked about a function that does not work very well in Sonar (in any X version). The method you have described above looks correct to me. Step 2 should be " from another midi track select input from that midi out enabled synth" It should work well if you only have one VSTi with midi out enabled to one soft synth in a project. If you try to anything beyond that, the results are very unpredictable. Interesting that cake tech support would try to deflect anything about vsti enable midi out as a documentation problem.... Too funny I thought this was all supposed to be fixed in X3c. But so far it looks like not much has changed. The crash is slightly different in X3c, but not really worth wasting anymore keystrokes on trying to describe. Here is the entire issue described. Should help with getting your routing working for one vsti http://forum.cakewalk.com/X3-freezing-because-of-MIDI-routing-m2900977.aspx JR
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lfm
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/02 13:32:44
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Really good, thank you for confirming - then I know I'm not crazy and won't bother waste my time this weekend with that. Step 2 is done as you describe - but your wording is more clear than helpfile. http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=SONAR%20X3&Lang=EN&Req=SoftSynths.19.html#1103890 I guess Cake should sum up all these midi out issues reported and they will nail it eventually. Probably related. My first bad luck was to use Waves Element that we now in x3c know wrongly were scanned as having midi out. But later I loaded AddictiveKeys, Dimension and Independece and tried as well - no luck. Second mistake, by bad luck, would be, that I didn't bother to turn off midi out when loaded second and third synth - since it's, as you say,commonly known issue then with multiple such instances. But my reference project shipped to support/bugreporter was just two instances of Dimension where one was midi out enabled, the other disabled. We'll see what support come up with. 
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lfm
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/05 11:21:31
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Reply from support:
"I've confirmed on our end that this text is specific to Direct X Plugins only in SONAR. We need to update our documentation to specify that."
But not a word how to do it for VST plugins - which is what I want to know in the first place, consulting helpfiles.
My God, Cake support is really digging a hole for themselves.
[(:]
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/05 14:38:35
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The solution - though it is a bit craptastic! One: Open a synth from the rack and choose the Enable midi output option. We'll call the first one Dim Pro. Get a patch up so you can hear it. Two: Open up a second synth (the slave) and don't choose the midi output option. This one is called Rapture. Get a patch up so you can hear it. Three: Make sure the Dim Pro midi input is your controller keyboard. Make sure the Dim Pro midi output is Dim Pro. Make sure the Rapture midi input is Dim Pro. Make sure the little blue boxes (input echo I believe) are blue for both synths. Try playing something. If your set up is the same a mine it won't work, only the Dim Pro patch will play  . Now comes the funny part: Four: Delete the Rapture synth and the associated tracks (yes, you read it correctly). Five: Create a Rapture synth and get a patch up so you can hear it (eventually). Six: Make sure both blue boxes are blue and select as the midi input of the new Rapture as All inputs > Midi Omni. Seven: Press a key on your midi controller and be enthralled as the Dim Pro patch plays along with the Rapture patch (or vice versa). There may be a better way but this way worked for me and it didn't work the way it should (so I wonder what the sensible solution is?). Grum.
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auto_da_fe
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/05 15:21:05
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Are using simple instrument tracks or separate VSTi and midi tracks ? I have found no difference my self so I have always defaulted to simple instrument tracks because they are well....simple.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/05 17:46:07
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I just create the midi clips on one track and copy and paste them to whatever additional midi tracks I choose to play the same data, and that works great.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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mettelus
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/05 18:01:46
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I am confused with this post. If you want to hear two synths in unison (same keys), why not simply open two synths and give them the same input signal (AKA Grum's "Now comes the funny part")? I have done this often by accident running "MIDI Omni" with multiple tracks echoed... the MIDI will drive every echoed track at the same time. Even if one "could" drive the other, you are creating latency chains.
The other thing that confuses me is that I thought the "output" of the synth is audio... so this would not drive another synth as a midi input. Am I missing something?
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lfm
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/05 23:07:14
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Thanks guys for input.
Yes, you can copy clips all over - and yes you can have two tracks armed with echo/record and make two tracks. Those are workarounds.
But it does not solve the other uses of midi out. Being able to use VST midi plugins in audio tracks taking input from a synth(shoulde be fixed in X3c) and then pass on to another synth. And it does not solve recording arpeggiators - that not always on every round sound the same. Basically what the help topic talked about - but only work for DX plugins, as support said.
The real downer in all this - Cakewalk is not on top of what they are doing. I'm loosing my confidence rapidly that they ever will be.
Can you believe support said I did it the incorrect way - but did not tell what the correct way to do it was?
last part of support reply:
"I'm guessing this what written when Direct X was the only plugin format that we supported in SONAR. I am sorry for the inconvenience."
Is this guy IQ70 - or what - not getting my topic was not about documentation and they should correct that. I turned to documentation to see how to do things.
How the **** do you use the midi out - which is there on every bleeding adding of synth page?
They rather change documentation than fixing limitations.
Right now I'm back on Studio One. Not moving any more projects to X3 - it's a waste of time. Cakewalk just not seem to making the full distance - in the end they fail just before the finish line.
You make proper problem reports - which are rejected in an hour - and sending you to this kind of support instead(waiting months for this kind of reply) - which they obviously think is going to feed developers with better input. They think users are idiots and their support is really what to rely on.
- Yeah, right. Good luck with that.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 08:13:28
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I don't see what I do as a work around, it is how I chose to do it all along, and it works just fine.
As far as the arpeggiator recording goes, I don't quite understand why doing a copy/paste after you recorded the initial track wouldn't work - perhaps I am not getting what you were trying to explain.
Bob Bone
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mgh
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 08:38:11
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i guess he means using the arpeggiator in, say Z3ta, but the sample (sound) from a second synth? i'm not a synth guy so don't know if this is one use of midi out? as the different sound may affect how you play it, so recording the midi part in the original synth might not always work as well?
post edited by mgh - 2013/11/06 09:03:29
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 10:04:26
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I have a plugin whose only purpose is to output midi. It has no audio output, it is designed to drive other plugins so they produce audio.
If the routing in X3 is suspect/temperamental/cr@p then this plugin has no use. The main reason I went through what I did in my earlier post in this thread was one, to try to help the OP and two, I was in a panic as X3 appears to be broken and I didn't want to lose my special plugin.
Something is wrong with X3's midi routing.
Grum.
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lawp
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 10:52:39
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grumbleweed4162
Something is wrong with X3's midi routing.
this
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Mystic38
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 11:18:16
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To those that do not understand that there is an issue..There are many uses for the midi out of a VST.. and none of them include the reuse of the original input source..:)
... arpeggiators, chord generators, modulation & step sequencer patterns to name just a few of the midi modulation functions being generated by some VST with midi out capability....and as grumbleweed indicates, there are now a number of midi only VST.
a big and serious +1 to "Something is wrong with X3's midi routing"
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stoutlyric
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 11:31:59
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Please fix, have been waiting a super long time for this.
Thanks
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 12:34:35
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Thanks for clarifying - I wasn't trying to say there was no issue - just did not understand it well enough.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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stevec
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 14:09:14
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Do any of the delivered SONAR plugins output MIDI as being described here? I've been following various posts about this topic since X3 was released, and have an interest in trying out this type of functionality. Here's what I initially tried: I inserted an instance of Z3TA2 (MIDI out was auto-enabled), selected a preset with an arpeggiator and added a single four bar note to trigger ir, inserted an instance of DimPro and set its MIDI input to Z3TA's output (tried OMNI and individual channels). But I couldn't get DimPro to output anything or show any MIDI signal during playback. Any pointers for a complete newbie to the MIDI out feature?
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 14:48:51
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stevec
Do any of the delivered SONAR plugins output MIDI as being described here? I've been following various posts about this topic since X3 was released, and have an interest in trying out this type of functionality. Here's what I initially tried: I inserted an instance of Z3TA2 (MIDI out was auto-enabled), selected a preset with an arpeggiator and added a single four bar note to trigger ir, inserted an instance of DimPro and set its MIDI input to Z3TA's output (tried OMNI and individual channels). But I couldn't get DimPro to output anything or show any MIDI signal during playback. Any pointers for a complete newbie to the MIDI out feature?
Read my detailed post in this thread. I pretty sure the arp will not be outputted by the zeta but the note used to trigger it will.....but only once you get the two devices talking to each other like I describe in my post. Grum. Edit: Actually it will be interesting to know what the zeta pumps out - the arp'ed midi would be cool if it is outputted.
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stevec
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 14:52:01
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Thanks, Grum. For whatever reason I completey missed that post! Printing in 5, 4, 3, 2...  Edit: Are you just enabling Input Echo on both synth tracks? Step six seems to indicate that, so I wasn't sure if MIDI out was still was a factor.
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Grumbleweed_
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 15:10:45
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stevec
Thanks, Grum. For whatever reason I completey missed that post! Printing in 5, 4, 3, 2...
Edit: Are you just enabling Input Echo on both synth tracks? Step six seems to indicate that, so I wasn't sure if MIDI out was still was a factor.
Both tracks are blue. I discovered a while back it (in X2) both have to be on for this to work (I lost a lot of hair trying to figure out the lack of sound). I also just discovered the zeta output is the plain note and not the pattern (as I first suspected). Grum.
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auto_da_fe
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 16:55:27
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When discussing VSTi that generate midi output to trigger another soft synth......do not forget about the Mighty Jamstix3 !!!
I use Jamstix on every project, if you want to use Jamstix with Battery, or BFD, or EZ drummer, or Session Drummer, or Addictive Drums you have to use enable midi out.
Essentially Sonar is capable of accurately routing only one channel of enable midi out right now. (of course it is not hard to accurately route only 1 channel of midi !!)
Jeff
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stevec
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 18:05:27
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grumbleweed4162
stevec
Thanks, Grum. For whatever reason I completey missed that post! Printing in 5, 4, 3, 2...
Edit: Are you just enabling Input Echo on both synth tracks? Step six seems to indicate that, so I wasn't sure if MIDI out was still was a factor.
Both tracks are blue. I discovered a while back it (in X2) both have to be on for this to work (I lost a lot of hair trying to figure out the lack of sound).
I also just discovered the zeta output is the plain note and not the pattern (as I first suspected).
Grum.
Right, that is Input Echo. So if synth1 is playing back it's track, synth2 will also play that data as long as both Input Echo buttons are enabled... but I'm also assuming that this is only after running through the MIDI out steps in the first half? Enabling Input Echo on multiple synths always allowed you to hear those synths played back via a controller - like a massive layered synth in real-time - but I've never used it for pure playback purposes. Thanks!
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lfm
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 23:28:00
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robert_e_bone
I don't see what I do as a work around, it is how I chose to do it all along, and it works just fine.
As far as the arpeggiator recording goes, I don't quite understand why doing a copy/paste after you recorded the initial track wouldn't work - perhaps I am not getting what you were trying to explain.
Bob Bone
Thanks - to you and the rest doing input here. And that it might be a fail in X3 for something working at least with one instance in X2 is really interesting info. I find that my initial bugreport that was rejected holds as a real bug(CWBRN-20328). The natural workaround for unison playing - is as you say. But why maintain two different clips if it can be done in a single clip. But there are as listed by many now, many uses where you cannot get passed without midi out functionality. For me the most important fail is support and bugreport handling. Such a complex piece of software it's bound to be erratic behavior in there - since there are so many pieces of software that interact. But as Cake do - thinking users are idiots and their grand support is the true guide to successfully narrow down these bugs - not with this guy that responded to me anyway - he thinks it's a documentation error. If Cake allow us - we are in this together and will gladly supply feedback to narrow down issues. Carefully collect and look through all bugreports and see what might be common to an issue. It will surely fail in different ways on different people - still being the same issue in software. Something is very wrong in how Cake approach problems - since they remain over generations of major versions causing very frustrated and finally angry customerbase and in the end not being part of customerbase at all. X3 is a really nice piece of software that is worth fighting a bit for. But as of now I don't trust Cake's ability to get on top of things.
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 23:44:36
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☄ Helpfulby Mystic38 2013/11/07 07:56:28
Please don't sit here and insult our IQs and suggest we're thinking our users are idiots. This doesn't help us dig into issues together. It's extremely hard to help someone when they're insulting your IQ instead of just providing a clear set of steps of what they're doing. I noticed you didn't insult the other forum members here? Why treat Cakewalk staff any differently? Why not just reply to person you were working with and let him know you think he's mistaken versus coming here and trying to humiliate him publicly without their knowledge?
Perhaps it's just me, but I'm actually having a hard time understanding the steps you specifically are taking and what your expectations are. I'm not saying there's not an issue here, it's just this entire thread feels a bit ambiguous to me. What synth are you using? What exact steps are you taking? What is your routing set up like? I'd like to know the exact context to put it in for the sake of being able to understand more accurately, not to be a pain.
I think perhaps what we should do is start over and redefine exactly what you're doing and exactly what isn't working. Also we should stop paraphrasing what support has or hasn't said. It's a bit misleading. If there's a bug, let's bug it up.
Edit for typos.
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Anderton
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/06 23:50:10
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Well, I don't speak for Cakewalk but I think this thread kind of explains why the issue hasn't received priority...not a lot of people understand this feature or why they would want to use it, and others have ways to deal with accomplishing much of what this feature would accomplish. Also I don't know how many synths have MIDI out enabled to actually do something. Frankly this is something I hadn't tried so I didn't know what, if anything, didn't work but now I'll check it out to find out what y'all are talking about. I didn't really understand the problem until Mystic38's post. As to the level of support, Cakewalk is a very small company. It's entirely possible that the support person who answered the ticket isn't all that familiar with the feature. This isn't to say they shouldn't know every possible element of the program, but in practical terms, that's not always possible. There have been times I've contacted tech support at bigger companies and the person I got couldn't answer my question. So I called back immediately and got someone else, and often, they did have an answer. If not, I called back during when it was after hours in the US but working hours in India. Most of the time they got it right, even though sometimes it was hard to understand the accent.
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/07 00:17:35
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Anderton
Well, I don't speak for Cakewalk but I think this thread kind of explains why the issue hasn't received priority...not a lot of people understand this feature or why they would want to use it, and others have ways to deal with accomplishing much of what this feature would accomplish. Also I don't know how many synths have MIDI out enabled to actually do something. Frankly this is something I hadn't tried so I didn't know what, if anything, didn't work but now I'll check it out to find out what y'all are talking about. I didn't really understand the problem until Mystic38's post. As to the level of support, Cakewalk is a very small company. It's entirely possible that the support person who answered the ticket isn't all that familiar with the feature. This isn't to say they shouldn't know every possible element of the program, but in practical terms, that's not always possible. There have been times I've contacted tech support at bigger companies and the person I got couldn't answer my question. So I called back immediately and got someone else, and often, they did have an answer. If not, I called back during when it was after hours in the US but working hours in India. Most of the time they got it right, even though sometimes it was hard to understand the accent.
I've definitely been that first and second agent many times! We all try our best to know as much as possible, but there is so much technology out there it's almost impossible to keep up. SONAR X3 introducing VST3 support resulted in me having to look at more third-party plugins then I ever have before! I actually spent an entire day just installing and authorizing plugins. I didn't even get to testing any of them! Anyhow, I'm rambling. SONAR has a lot going on and so does Cakewalk. We have some very green support reps who jumped in at the busiest time possible and are trying to soak up as much as humanly possible. We're extremely dedicated to helping to make SONAR better and better and we haven't even revealed our full hand yet. We are a small team though, so from time to time we definitely do make mistakes. Best way to fix them, in my experience at least, is to just shake hands... Move past the mistakes... And work towards the solutions together. That to me is where this community and Cakewalk shines. I'd like to do that with this issue if anyone is with me. (Sent from my phone in a bumpy train ride... Excuse typos :)
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lfm
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/07 00:23:45
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Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
Please don't sit here and insult our IQs and suggest we're thinking our users are idiots. This doesn't help us dig into issues together. It's extremely hard to help someone when they're insulting your IQ instead of just providing a clear set of steps of what they're doing. I noticed you didn't insult the other forum members here? Why treat Cakewalk staff any differently? Why not just reply to person you were working with and let him know you think he's mistaken versus coming here and trying to humiliate him publicly without their knowledge?
Perhaps it's just me, but I'm actually having a hard time understanding the steps you specifically are taking and what your expectations are. I'm not saying there's not an issue here, it's just this entire thread feels a bit ambiguous to me. What synth are you using? What exact steps are you taking? What is your routing set up like? I'd like to know the exact context to put it in for the sake of being able to understand more accurately, not to be a pain.
I think perhaps what we should do is start over and redefine exactly what you're doing and exactly what isn't working. Also we should stop paraphrasing what support has or hasn't said. It's a bit misleading. If there's a bug, let's bug it up.
Edit for typos.
Well, I did bug it up - and it was rejected in hours(CWBRN number above). With sample project and everything you need - with Dimension Pro VST x64 loaded as you would all have. This was reply from support agent: "Hello Lasse, I've confirmed on our end that this text is specific to Direct X Plugins only in SONAR. We need to update our documentation to specify that. I'm guessing this what written when Direct X was the only plugin format that we supported in SONAR. I am sorry for the inconvenience. Best regards," This was my reply to your support agent: "Thank you. But how do you do this then for VST instruments? That would be interesting to know - I don't know why you left this out. I mean - the real topic is that I want to do this kind routing from one midi clip to multiple synths to play unison? And since it did not work as documented, I reported. Do I have to put a separate support request to get this information? Best regards Lars" Anything diminishing to your staff in there? I don't think so. My post here was a buildup of steam - since you don't get that. You Cakewalk always go defensive - instead addressing the issues.That's why issues remain over time.
post edited by lfm - 2013/11/07 00:31:19
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/07 01:02:15
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The comments against staff I was referring to were in this thread not to them directly. No need to quote them each, it's besides the point. I defend my staff in support because despite your assumption, they're actually a MAJOR part in getting issues fixed. The CWBRNs, Fault Reporter, internal bug submissions, and just overall feedback all come from support. It's pretty important and has resulted in a lot of fixes for customers. I was sort of hoping that X3a, X3b, and X3c were a clear testament to how this type of interaction between customers and those of us on the front lines is so insanely important. The push for more maintenance releases didn't come from upper management...
Anyhow, I'll check out the CWBRN. Contact Tech Support never means "rejected". I spoke about that concept to the point of exhaustion very recently actually, it just means, "let's talk". I might actually just change the words to that to be honest (yay/nay ?).
I'm not trying to argue with you here. I'm trying to start over and get specifics. I'll dig into the CWBRN tomorrow and let you know if I need any clarification on anything.
I'm sorry things got the point were you were really frustrated with us.
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lfm
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/07 01:23:31
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Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
I'm not trying to argue with you here. I'm trying to start over and get specifics. I'll dig into the CWBRN tomorrow and let you know if I need any clarification on anything.
I'm sorry things got the point were you were really frustrated with us.
Thank you for being professional about it. You have my attention - or anybody here that maybe state the issue more clear. I'm no wonder-tutor pedagogue. I just followed the help topic "Recording a softsynth's midi output". And the subtopics "To hear a soft synth's midi output through another track" "To record a soft synth's midi output through another track" Some connection internally in Sonar seems to be there - I made the following test. a) the second midi track input has selected output from a midi out-synth b) I go to synth rack - and disable midi out on this particular sending synth c) input selection change to - none. which means there is some routing recoqnized by Sonar. But no actuall midi is handled. Since routing is limited in Sonar it's very handy if this feature works. Tiny feature request embedded: Having sends also treat midi equally like Reaper would be swell. Just adding sends(with midi) to other synth'si would easily play multiple in unison. In Reaper you just drag-n-drop the I/O button to another track, and it's there. But even doing this through buses in Sonar would be enough. Thanks.
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Anderton
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Re: Softsynth midi output - how do you use it?
2013/11/07 01:39:03
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Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk
We have some very green support reps who jumped in at the busiest time possible and are trying to soak up as much as humanly possible. We're extremely dedicated to helping to make SONAR better and better and we haven't even revealed our full hand yet. We are a small team though, so from time to time we definitely do make mistakes.
You're not allowed to make mistakes. Ever. No one else here does Seriously, seems to me the major success of X3 has pros and cons. The con is that now a zillion people are beating it up and encountering issues, although I must say after looking through these threads that a lot of the issues are pilot error and/or unfamiliarity with a particular feature and have been solved. The pro is also that a zillion people are beating it up and encountering issues, so they can find things that might take a team of beta testers months to find, if ever. I really think the rapid pace of updates indicates the extent to which you take reports seriously, but there's no way your team is going to be able to fix everyone's favorite bug and/or feature enhancement in parallel. This kind of thing is a bit of a serial interface. And I know you haven't revealed your full hand yet
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