Helpful ReplySo...if Sonar lives....

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mixmkr
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2018/02/24 04:39:07 (permalink)

So...if Sonar lives....

How many are going to come back and flood feature requests that their "new love" could do, but Sonar hadn't implemented yet?  In other words...  Bend Sonar into its' competition.
Boy.... a thick channel would be nice and an interface that perfectly integrated with the software....even used the same native plugs on their hardware, where you could transfer settings from computer to hardware.
Maybe colors that look like "cotton candy" at first, but the gaudy-ness of it, starts to grow on you...
ha!

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#1
mumpcake
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 05:48:32 (permalink)
I never liked the way they implemented FX Chains.  I never really wanted a container.   Maybe they could implement chains so that dragging them onto the FX bin gives you the container, Shift-Dragging just drops the effects.
 
I also really like how Studio One and Bitwig have Instrument presets which allow you to drag an instrument and effect chain onto a track to replace what is already there.  So if I had one preset of a Dimension Bass into Guitar Rig on a track, I could easily replace that with a preset of a Kontakt bass going into Amplitube, or similar.
 
 
#2
Kamikaze
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 05:59:32 (permalink)
So like track templates, but instrument templates?

 
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sharke
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 07:24:20 (permalink)
Well for one, I've been doing some intensive automation envelope drawing in Reaper over the last few days and I can't believe I ever coped with it in Sonar. When you're drawing dozens of envelopes for synth and effect parameters in Reaper, it's so much easier to manage everything. You open a big window which lists all of your effect plugins in a well organized array of collapsible lists, and you simply tick checkboxes for all of the parameters that you want and it creates lanes for them. No more creating them lane by lane and scrolling endlessly through those horrible parameter menus in Sonar to find the one parameter out of 200 you need to automate a synth. And you can choose which ones to show/hide from the same window. You can also resize all of the lanes independently, as big as you like. 
 
Another thing I like in Reaper which it's about time Sonar had is the integrated wet/dry for every effect in your chain. That's so handy. Bitwig takes that a step further and lets you do stuff like split your signal into bands on the same track and branch off separate FX chains for each band, or do the same for mid/side etc. It's so much easier than having to do stuff like this with aux tracks and sends. You get to do it all on the one track, and your projects are so much easier to manage as a result. With Bitwig you can even have recursive fx chains within fx chains, as many times as your computer can handle. You can do stuff like embed an fx chain into a synth, and then save the synth with its fx chain as a preset to use again. Really great stuff. 
 
I'd love to see Sonar take some cues from other DAW's in integrating modern production techniques and making them easier. It has a lot of great stuff to learn from the likes of Ableton, Bitwig, Reaper and Studio One. You don't even have to be into EDM or pop to appreciate this stuff. Times have changed tremendously and people are looking for much more than just a "fancy multitrack recorder" in a DAW. 
 
Oh and fix the long standing bugs which made Sonar such a frustrating experience for many and drove huge numbers of users away! The program does not perform well under pressure, nowhere near as well as other DAW's. I've been working with the same sized project side by side in Reaper and Sonar and honestly Sonar feels like a geriatric with arthritis in comparison. Big eye opener for me, that. I suspect there a large amount of legacy bloat that barely anyone uses any more in Sonar, and it would be great to see it come back as a lean, mean fighting machine. 

James
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#4
Kamikaze
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 07:55:33 (permalink)
Finding out that the bakers sought out the expertise of Overture developer and made a plan but returned when Gibson weren't happy, so went back and made another plan, that Gibson rejected was totally frustrating. It swung my feelings on Gibson, and I regained a lot of faith in Cakewalk instantly. I really hope they get the opportunity this time round to draw on his expertise.
 
Not so much from another DAW, though some do it, but more from the experience of looking into replacements on realizing they could all be gone. The Adaptive limiter should be available to buy, the LP Multiband and Eq too. If they were competitive they'd show the quailty of Cakewalks errr BandLabs plugs and raise the profile of Sonar. Concrete Limiter should be in VST form, and Join the CA2A as pucharcable, Quad EQ too. You could get away from the levels and have a bass Product you can add functions and plugs to.
 
Someone posted that Reaper was really difficult, but a response was that there are stacks of training videos, and that made it easy. Third parties should make videos for a constantly changing product. These show people investigating a new DAWs the ease and possibilities, so are advertising as well as training. Having cool function for your DAW appear in youtube feed will prod away are other DAW users to check them out.
 
 
 
 
 

 
#5
exitthelemming
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 09:25:56 (permalink)
Cautiously optimistic about the developments with Bandlab. Now that I've tried other DAWS e.g. Studio One, Samplitude and Reaper it strikes me that for SONAR to have any sustainable longevity for the future the following features are entry level for any Pro DAW in 2018:
 
The ability to have separate buffer sizes set for recording and mixing (like Studio One)
Support for per note controller automation (like Reaper, Cubase and Bitwig)
As noted by the aptly named sharke previously, a complete re-write of the automation writing process
Revamped and reorganized MIDI editing tools with some of the more useful CAL routines available from the editor
The ability to preview an FX chain by hovering over the target track
 
#6
mettelus
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 09:41:19 (permalink)
Given what we know so far I am pessimistic about seeing feature requests at any appreciable rate. I expect SONAR to get a makeover to conform to the new status quo first, and only two people have been named who know the code already. Some FRs have already been languishing for years as it is, and I expect them to continue to for some time. I used to read through the FR forum just to keep myself focused on reality, and then it was moved to make it even harder to track. I expect that to remain relatively unchanged.

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#7
exitthelemming
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 10:32:44 (permalink)
mettelus
Given what we know so far I am pessimistic about seeing feature requests at any appreciable rate. I expect SONAR to get a makeover to conform to the new status quo first, and only two people have been named who know the code already. Some FRs have already been languishing for years as it is, and I expect them to continue to for some time. I used to read through the FR forum just to keep myself focused on reality, and then it was moved to make it even harder to track. I expect that to remain relatively unchanged.


Which is really just another way of saying it's irrelevant who owns Cakewalk as feature requests will never be implemented by anyone, ever and the installation servers will perish in the heat death of the universe anyways....
I think much will depend on the type of target user at which Bandlab is aiming to pitch a relaunched/re-branded Sonar i.e. the niche pro DAW user demographic (unlikely) or the casual dabbler whose looking for a set of more sophisticated tools to get their music onto the cloud via a web based DAW (more likely) However, Bandlab must themselves be in something of a quandary as they know they have a potentially large and loyal Sonar customer base with which they could earn considerable income over the coming years depending on how they weigh up the anticipated income streams from both demographics.
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Kamikaze
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 10:43:39 (permalink)
I'm hoping the plan is to use the technology from Sonar to beef up the potential and quality of the the tools they currently make, and whilst developing Sonar into a high performance option. In the same way family car manufacturers have racing teams

 
#9
marled
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 10:45:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby DannyDee 2018/02/24 21:18:49
I agree with mettelus that it is not the day for feature requests now!

Reading all the new threads and about BandLab I am worried that Sonar could become a consumer karaoke studio, with monthly paying rates and all cloud based storage and features, i.e. this could be the death of the professional studio software!
And we really don't know whether we will be able to use the current version of Sonar any longer if we do not like the new versions!

... many years before ...
#10
mudgel
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 10:46:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jude77 2018/02/24 16:12:04
Band lab will have the do something with Sonar that no one’s been able to do for many a year.

Make a profit. That will mean significant changes. In what way, I have no clue, but clearly changes will be made.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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anydmusic
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 11:17:21 (permalink)
mudgel
Band lab will have the do something with Sonar that no one’s been able to do for many a year.

Make a profit. That will mean significant changes. In what way, I have no clue, but clearly changes will be made.


I think that this will indeed be the key to winning back those who have already moved and retaining those that have stayed so far waiting to see what will happen.

I'm looking forward to seeing what emerges in the next 3 months.

Graham
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#12
chuckebaby
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 12:06:01 (permalink)
I think Bandlab only make some minor changes... not some major overhaul.
Look at the main Bandlab thread views and comments 10,000 views in the past 24 hours.
 
Cakewalk has a fairly dedicated following of users. They are the last generation of the analog/digital engineers.
Bandlab can put 2 - 4 guys on this project and still make money, where as Gibson was in dire straits and needed to show major turn around profits quickly.
 
Its all about where you stand:
Gibson is losing money + Bandlab is making money= Sonar being developed in a better environment = reaches more customers = sells more software.
 
In the words of Charles E. Baby
"Why change the formula? Doesn't anyone remember when Coke tried that"
 

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#13
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 14:00:59 (permalink)
mumpcake
I never liked the way they implemented FX Chains.  I never really wanted a container.   Maybe they could implement chains so that dragging them onto the FX bin gives you the container, Shift-Dragging just drops the effects.

 
ahem it it already does this :) Shift dragging an fx chain unpacks the individual effects. Most people prefer keeping them intact as a single object however since its much easier to manage and move the chain as a single entity in the fx rack. Unpacking them prevents you from doing this or using the global controls for a chain.
 
 
>>I also really like how Studio One and Bitwig have Instrument presets which allow you to drag an instrument and effect chain onto a track to replace what is already there. 
Again this is already available. We have had replace instrument available for years.
Its not done via drag and drop in this case. Just right click a synth track and choose replace synth or access it from the dropdown in the synth rack. If you have a default preset set up it will choose that.
 
>>So if I had one preset of a Dimension Bass into Guitar Rig on a track, I could easily replace that with a preset of a Kontakt bass going into Amplitube, or similar.
 
Yes it would be nice to have a separate preset browser that allowed drag and drop as well. We had that in the backlog at some point.
 
 

Noel Borthwick
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My Blog, Twitter, BandLab Profile
#14
Kamikaze
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 14:08:12 (permalink)
I read the drag and synth and FX as meaning one unit. so if you have a synth and a set ff FX set up with that synth, they act as one unit. I believe you mean replace just the synth. I can only think this can be done by track template, then moving the midi and assignments.
 
You can do replace instrument
You can't do replace FX
You can't do replace instrument and FX combined
You can combine instrument and FX in a track template.
 
Do I have that right?

 
#15
royarn
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 15:18:02 (permalink)
Never left, Just bought an alternative should the worst happen, so I'll use the one I fancy on the day. But so pleased Sonar didnt die.
Roy
 

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#16
chuckebaby
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 16:38:03 (permalink)
can someone please restore my post
 
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
 
>>I also really like how Studio One and Bitwig have Instrument presets which allow you to drag an instrument and effect chain onto a track to replace what is already there. 
Again this is already available. We have had replace instrument available for years.

 
What about replace track ?
 
As in Right click on a track and choose: Replace with Track template.
Instead we have to insert the track template then drag the data over from the old track to the newly created track template.
 
99% of us don't use the same monitoring levels and settings when we record as when we do when we mix.
It would be nice to find a way to save that and apply an already established template to a working project.
 
Its ironic because we can do the same thing with views correct ? We can have a view for recording, a view for mixing, a view for mastering.
But we can have settings applied to an already established track or project.
The only work around I have found is Pro channel template settings. These have been a life saver in time saving ability's.
A Pro channel template setting CAN be applied to an already established track.

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#17
chuckebaby
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 16:39:16 (permalink)
never mind, I guess placing the words "can someone please restore my post"
before my actual comment tricked the spam filter into believing im not a spammer.
go figure.

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#18
Cactus Music
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 17:27:08 (permalink)
Myself I think this endless pursuit  of feature requests was why Sonar became so unstable for many. 
There is a huge difference in stability between using Home Studio and Splat for me,, on the same 2 computers and set up parameters. Sonar ( SPLAT) randomly has crashed for me. Mostly during midi editing and sometimes after saving and export. 
 
So I started working in Home Studio as it has all the same features I need for midi and after more than a year HS has never once crashed. So you can go ahead a dream of adding even more junk and making it more un stable, but my wish for what ever these people produce is the same stability Home Studio ( yes and Cubase)  has. I often wondered if Artist was also more stable? 
 
And last night a midi track for no reason decided to add a overlapping few measures of wonderfully out of tune piano chords at the end of the song.. It also extended the drum track by 10 measures???? These weird bugs are what we get used to, but they don't ever happen in HS,, why? Because it is simplified and what it does have, works solid. From there you can start adding code and the more code you add, the more stuff is going to go weird. 

Johnny V  
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#19
Kamikaze
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 17:32:23 (permalink)
What! Cakewalk hardly implemented any feature requests.
 
Name five?
 
All the added feature were pretty much their own ideas

 
#20
scook
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 17:39:38 (permalink)
Easy -
  1. MIDI chase
  2. Synth audio recording
  3. Bus pane aim assist
  4. Ripple Edit
  5. Free mp3 encoding
 
 
#21
Kamikaze
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 17:46:59 (permalink)
5. happened because the licensed expired.
 
So easy, then name 20. Even then would it be the reason that Sonar was unstable. Are you supporting Cactus's claim that this is the reason that Sonar is unstable? 

 
#22
scook
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 18:01:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Soundwise 2018/02/24 19:15:24
They did not have to do it and free mp3 export was a frequent request. Moreover, they gave it to every Cakewalk DAW customer past and present.
 
Don't change the subject the challenge was name 5 user requested changes. There are many more but why should anyone bother since you fail to appreciate the improvements whatever the source. Out of synth audio recording came patch points and aux tracks. From a suggestion came plug-in upsampling. Also mix recall, more PC FX, improved plug-in layouts, more user control over the UI, cloning instrument tracks.... Feel free to refresh your memory here, the associated knowledge base articles, supporting e-zines and Tech+Music publications. IIRC Tech+Music was user requested too.
 
 
#23
SandlinJohn
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 18:03:14 (permalink)
mixmkr
How many are going to come back and flood feature requests that their "new love" could do, but Sonar hadn't implemented yet?  In other words...  Bend Sonar into its' competition.
Boy.... a thick channel would be nice and an interface that perfectly integrated with the software....even used the same native plugs on their hardware, where you could transfer settings from computer to hardware.
Maybe colors that look like "cotton candy" at first, but the gaudy-ness of it, starts to grow on you...
ha!



I never left.
 
Feature requests? Fix the bugs first. But I don't expect the new owners to "reissue" SONAR as it currently is. I expect they want to blend their existing products with the crazy advanced IP that is SONAR. I'll wait to see what comes of that before coming up with feature requests.

The one obvious request someone might have: A proper "Sheet Music/Score Editor" - I got MuseScore (free) and "Forte" (Not so free), so I'm OK on that front. They don't directly integrate with SONAR, but they work for what I need.

Beyond that, I want to see what BandLab comes up with before charging in with the Demands... I mean requests.

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Kamikaze
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 18:08:14 (permalink)
scook
They did not have to do it and free mp3 export was a frequent request. Moreover, they gave it to every Cakewalk customer past and present.
 
Don't change the subject the challenge was name 5 user requested changes. There are many more but why should anyone bother since you fail to appreciate the improvements whatever the source. Out of synth audio recording came patch points and aux tracks. From a suggestion came plug-in upsampling. Also mix recall, more PC FX, improved plug-in layouts, more user control over the UI, cloning instrument tracks.... Feel free to refresh your memory here, the associated knowledge base articles, supporting e-zines and Tech+Music publications. IIRC Tech+Music was user requested too.
 
 


The challenge wasn't to you Mr walking Sonar Encyclopedia. If it was I wouldn't have said 5.
 
And the subject was 'endless pursuit of feature requests was why Sonar became so unstable for many.'
 
So no subject has been changed.
 
 
Patch points would have been one I named.
 
And your link is to loads of feature implemented, that's not the same as Feature Requests. I stated these came from Cakewalk not Feature requests.
 

 
#25
scook
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 18:15:53 (permalink)
Kamikaze
And the subject was 'endless pursuit of feature requests was why Sonar became so unstable for many.'

Not from what you posted. Your often repeated comment that Cakewalk did not implement user requests is simply not true. A simple check of the link I provided invalidated the comment. Cakewalk was continually on the bug hunt too. Look at the link provided for that info if you so desire. Better still why not look to the future rather than complain about the past.
#26
Kamikaze
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 18:23:48 (permalink)
You say abut changing the topic, but now you are drawing from past threads.
 
We call that moving the goal posts in England.
 
This is a dishonest conversation based on a different agenda than the post I made above. Probably because you weren't happy about my posts this morning.
 
 
 

 
#27
michael diemer
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 18:26:41 (permalink)
Cactus Music
Myself I think this endless pursuit  of feature requests was why Sonar became so unstable for many. 
There is a huge difference in stability between using Home Studio and Splat for me,, on the same 2 computers and set up parameters. Sonar ( SPLAT) randomly has crashed for me. Mostly during midi editing and sometimes after saving and export. 
 
So I started working in Home Studio as it has all the same features I need for midi and after more than a year HS has never once crashed. So you can go ahead a dream of adding even more junk and making it more un stable, but my wish for what ever these people produce is the same stability Home Studio ( yes and Cubase)  has. I often wondered if Artist was also more stable? 
 
And last night a midi track for no reason decided to add a overlapping few measures of wonderfully out of tune piano chords at the end of the song.. It also extended the drum track by 10 measures???? These weird bugs are what we get used to, but they don't ever happen in HS,, why? Because it is simplified and what it does have, works solid. From there you can start adding code and the more code you add, the more stuff is going to go weird. 


Johnny, I can tell you that my install of 8.5 Studio is far more stable than my 8.5 Producer ever was, which is why that is what I am now using. Although I plan to upgrade as soon as that becomes possible. I have been regretting that I did not do so before "the announcement."  So Artist could be more stable than Sonar Platinum. Anyone know?

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#28
scook
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 18:27:22 (permalink)
Kamikaze
This is a dishonest conversation based on a different agenda than the post I made above. Probably because you weren't happy about my posts this morning.

Nope, just trying to dispel the myth that Cakewalk did not implement user requests. Done that...moving on.
#29
stratman70
Max Output Level: -45 dBFS
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Re: So...if Sonar lives.... 2018/02/24 18:33:36 (permalink)
Wow Lots of speculation, which is to be expected.
 
All I care about, ATM is don't forget to give me my algo so I can reinstall the product I paid for.
The rest we really have no control over..............
 
Just keep the promise made way back when..........

 
 
#30
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