Solutions for Using Take Lanes as Layers

[Hidden agenda alert: I think the topic of using Take Lanes as Layers would make a great article for my Sonar column in Sound on Sound magazine, as there seems to be confusion/controversy around the subject. So, the purpose of this thread is not to start a flame war about Take Lanes; we have enough of those. The purpose is to offer solutions to those who want Take Lanes to work as much like Layers as possible. I believe that with a few exceptions this is possible, and without complicated workarounds. 
 
HOWEVER, before writing this up, I want to make sure my thinking is correct. I am hoping that people who want to use Take Lanes as Layers will read this and 1) verify that what I'm suggesting works, 2) if possible, propose additional solutions or workarounds I haven't addressed that make Take Lanes seem more like Layers. I'm just trying to be helpful here...as well as gather material for another column.]
 
While the new features in Take Lanes were designed for comping applications involving a particular workflow, as far as I can tell they can do pretty much everything you could do with Layers. I say "as far as I can tell" because I didn't use Layers all that much, but I think I've found the key to using Take Lanes as Layers:
 
After recording your Lanes/Layers, DON'T USE THE COMPING TOOLS FOR EDITING unless you actually want to comp using the workflow for which Take Lanes were intended.
 
If you want to start splitting clips, right-click on the Edit Tool button and select the Split tool. In the case of parts that aren't played to a click, you can split wherever you want; if you select multiple clips and split, they'll all split in the same place.
 
If you want to edit clips, right-click on the Edit Tool and select Edit. DON'T use the crossfade tool that's optimized for comping. You can do all of the following edits (and probably more) to individual clips:
 

• All fade-in and fade-out options
• All slip edit functions
• All slip edit functions involving fade-in/fade-out
• Time-stretching (e.g., slip-edit while holding down Ctrl)
• Slide clips in the Lane's time line
• Use a Lane's Edit Filter to do clip automation Gain or Pan
• Play back multiple clips simultaneously by unmuting muted clips (the "I'm layering sounds and want all the takes to play back through the same FX bin and/or go to the same send" scenario)
• Insert clip FX
• Delete all muted clips
• Delete all empty Lanes
• Flatten everything into its own Lane, which you can then drag into a track if you want to do track-type treatments

Note: The Smart Tool will also do many things the Edit Tool does, but I haven't investigated all the possibilities yet. For example, I know you can alt-click to split with the Smart Tool, but the tool has to be positioned in the correct part of the waveform or it won't seem to work.
 
Caution #1: Be careful about what clips are selected. For example if three clips are selected and you apply a fade-out to one of them, all three will have the same fade-out applied.
 
Caution #2: In some editing scenarios you may need to go back and forth between the Select and Edit (and possible the Mute) tools. The function keys speed up this process.
 
Here are some things you CAN'T do with Take Lanes (at least I haven't figured out how):
 

• Do automatic crossfades within a Lane, because clips within the same lane can't overlap. Workaround: Create a new Take Lane, move the clip you want to crossfade into it, and do a manual fade in/fade out for the overlapping clips. [Edit: Actually you can do crossfades on the Comp clip in the parent track if the Take Lanes aren't showing - see Brundlefly's post #4 below]
• Create a clip Region FX and apply Melodyne. Workaround: Drag the clip into a standard track, apply Melodyne, then drag back into the Layer.
• Add Automation envelopes (other than clip automation) within Lanes.

 
Without using the Comping tools, edits are done manually and Take Lanes behave more like Layers. With the Comping tools, a lot of the comping process is automated (taking the place of the Isolate function in Layers, which was the best option at the time for comping). Perhaps it's the default to the automated comping processes that's keeping people from using Take Lanes like Layers.
 
Caveat: As I said, I didn't use Layers that much so there may be some Layer-specific features important to people that I'm missing. If so, there may be ways around any limitations that would make the article even more useful.

Excellent idea, Craig. As you've pointed out, and I've also mentioned several times, staying away from the Comping tool is one key. I think there are also key differences between the way pre-takelane versions re-used layers when recording to different (i.e. non-overlapping) parts of a project (with or without looping), which seems to be a significant part of the discomfort with take lanes, and can only be worked around by dragging clips to the desired lane(s) between takes.
 
Scratch that last thought; I just checked in X1, and the behavior is the same - the most recently recorded lane/layer gets re-used when you record to another section of the project, and new lanes are added from there as needed when loop-recording. so either way, you'd have to drag clips (down in X3, up in X1 where lane order is reversed) to consolidate lanes/layers.
 
EDIT: Hmmm... strikethrough font not as obvious after posting as it is while editing.

brundlefly
Excellent idea, Craig. As you've pointed out, and I've also mentioned several times, staying away from the Comping tool is one key. I think there are also key differences between the way pre-takelane versions re-used layers when recording to different (i.e. non-overlapping) parts of a project (with or without looping), which seems to be a significant part of the discomfort with take lanes, and can only be worked around by dragging clips to the desired lane(s) between takes.
 
Scratch that last thought; I just checked in X1, and the behavior is the same - the most recently recorded lane/layer gets re-used when you record to another section of the project, and new lanes are added from there as needed when loop-recording. so either way, you'd have to drag clips (down in X3, up in X1 where lane order is reversed) to consolidate lanes/layers.

Agreed, in this case Take Lanes work the same way as Layers. Here's how I deal with the issue.
 
Suppose I recorded several Layers in one track at the beginning of the song and wanted to record more Layers of the same instrument toward the end of the song:
 
1. Clone the first track, but without Events. Do the loop recording for the next section in the clone track.
2. Comp the first part using the data in the first track and the second part using the data in the second track.
3. Select both tracks, then bounce to the first track (or to a new track, it doesn't matter; but if the first track is set up with effects, sends, etc., it makes more sense to bounce to the first track).
 
All the parts now end up bounced in the first track's highest Take Lane.
 
The reason this works for me is I don't go back and forth among sections when comping, I comp one then do another. So it doesn't matter that they're on separate tracks.

Can you import audio files into take lanes? I usually track outside the box and import the audio files into Sonar for mixing. Thanks.
 
Rocky

Great idea, but if I may suggest a slightly different approach. Instead of "Using lanes as layers" how about stepping back a bit and having an article on "Editing using lanes in Sonar X3".  This opens it up to interest from others who may not have ever used a layer but who are new to DAWs or coming from other DAWs and interested in how efficient editing is in Sonar.  
 
I am trying very hard to learn new methods to make X3 work for me, and appreciate the ideas posted above.  However I still find some very basic things hard.  For example, in layers if I wanted to replace a flubbed snare hit, I could easily copy and paste one from another section into a new layer, line it up with the one I wanted to replace (zooming in and out and moving the new one as necessary until the timing was right) and then trim out the old hit in the first layer.  I can't for the life of me figure out how to do this with lanes.  I can copy and paste fine, and put the new hit into a new lane so I can use the old one as a reference.  But pasting immediately hides the overlapping section of the first lane so I can't use it as a reference.  If I drag the edge of that clip to see the old hit, it disappears again as soon as I move the copied one.  Perhaps there is a way around this, but it is just one example where I still struggle with basic editing in lanes.   

 
This is a great thread for someone like me that never learned layers and has been waiting for the dust to settle before learning lanes.  I hope it will also help people reach a common understanding of what the different tools are or should be in a general purpose toolbox.  There is surely a lot of common ground between everyone's personal way of doing things.
 
 

Paul P
 
This is a great thread for someone like me that never learned layers and has been waiting for the dust to settle before learning lanes.  I hope it will also help people reach a common understanding of what the different tools are or should be in a general purpose toolbox.  There is surely a lot of common ground between everyone's personal way of doing things.

Yes, and I started this thread so I could learn too! I have a feeling I'm using Take Lanes (and their alter ego Layers) to about 50% of their potential...maybe not even that much. I'm finding out Take Lanes are a pretty deep new feature, not just Layers in new clothes...although the more I get into this, the more it seems you can take the clothes off and find Layers underneath

Keni
I believe that with an extra modifier added to the alt-click (such as Ctrl-alt-click) to allow splitting of individual clips instead of all lanes... I would like to see that come...

Hey Keni, I didn't catch all the responses in the other thread about this, but we need to get to the bottom of why your Alt-click with the Smart-tool isn't splitting takes individually. I think you're the exception on this.

Anderton

brundlefly

neirbod
I can copy and paste fine, and put the new hit into a new lane so I can use the old one as a reference.  But pasting immediately hides the overlapping section of the first lane so I can't use it as a reference.  If I drag the edge of that clip to see the old hit, it disappears again as soon as I move the copied one.

 
I'm not understanding the problem exactly. If the copied hit is in a parallel lane, you should be able to line it up in advance and then just Shift+drag it to the other lane (Shift preserves timing). Since SONAR doesn't allow same-lane overlaps, it will automatically slip-edit the original flubbed hit out of the way. Done.

That's what I would suggest as well. Neirbod, are you using the crossfade tool that's part of the comping toolset? This hides and moves things in unwanted ways if you're just doing editing and not Sonar's specific comping workflow.

Thanks for your thoughts. I found a workaround that helps.  To be more clear about the issue, say you have already comped and have just a single take, and now want to copy and paste a note from one section to another.  Paste the copied note, drag it to a new lane, and then move the edges of the original take (which now has a hole where the pasted note was) so you can see the flubbed note and use it as a timing reference.    So far so good.  The issue I had was I would then drag the clip for the new note to adjust the timing, which immediately resulted in recreating the hole in the original take.  The solution - use the "move data within a clip" feature of slip edit instead of moving the clip itself.  This leave the original take visible.  Once lined up, you can collapse the lanes and use crossfading on the track to make the edit seamless.
 
Three thoughts that may be useful in developing this article, and more generally for those trying figure out how to edit using them:
 
1) I found that "move data within a clip" is essential for editing within take lanes. I rarely used this with layers, instead moving entire clips and then using layers' good tools for trimming edges of overlapping layers.  With lanes, using this approach I would get lots of tiny clip fragments and small gaps between.  Moving data within clips is much better for my workflow.
 
2) The tools associated with editing with takes expanded vs. collapsed are quite different which can result in confusion (at least for me!).  For example, some powerful crossfading tools within lanes are simply not available with lanes collapsed, and auto-crossfade works only with lanes collapsed.  That being said, each has strengths and you can toggle back and forth to use the best of each.  In the example I gave above, I found the best workflow is to copy/paste and adjust timing with lanes expanded, then create the crossfades with lanes collapsed to take advantage of "auto crossfade", and then make any fine adjustments to the crossfade with lanes expanded again due to the nice tools available (e.g., one can move the timing of the entire crossfade as a unit in lanes, but not in the parent track).  
 
3) In general, while comping and editing steps can be combined I find this can be quite confusing and result in clip fragments and gaps.  For me, I try to comp first (perhaps making a minor edit or two at this stage) and only begin editing once you have a single comped take to work with.  Of course not all mixing is this linear, so sometimes you may want access to a different take once you are deep into editing.  So, prior to comping I duplicate the entire track(s) with all reasonably good takes and archive it so I have everything available if needed even if I am deep into the editing phase.
 
Looking forward to the article, Craig.
 
Cheers,
 
David

Wow, all your suggestions are great!!! Much appreciated. Had to jump off and do other things, but will check into other Take Lane/Layer elements over the weekend.

stevec
That is an often forgot editing ability that could really come in handy just as you've outlined.   
 

 
Agreed.  I actually had long forgotten this tool existed.  I don't recall any tutorial/video about Sonar that demonstrates this tool, and it really wasn't that important with layers, which could explain why it could be easily forgotten.  I only thought about it after I saw a video on editing in Cubase where they used a similar tool effectively.  I actually came close to putting in a feature request for such a tool, until a small a small light bulb went off and I thought "perhaps I can already do this in Sonar?"  

neirbod

brundlefly

Keni
I believe that with an extra modifier added to the alt-click (such as Ctrl-alt-click) to allow splitting of individual clips instead of all lanes... I would like to see that come...

Hey Keni, I didn't catch all the responses in the other thread about this, but we need to get to the bottom of why your Alt-click with the Smart-tool isn't splitting takes individually. I think you're the exception on this.

ALT+click works for me as well, splitting just the actual take I click on.  
 
Are we all talking about the same thing here?  If I have grouped clips (e.g., Overhead and kick) with takes 1 and 2, ALT+click on take 1 will split *both* the OH and kick on take 1, but neither mic on take 2.  This makes the most sense for multi-miced instruments, at least the vast majority of the time.  Not sure if Keni means he wants the ability to split "OH take 1" without splitting "kick take 1."  To my knowledge this is possible only if you remove the clips in question from the groups.

Hi neirbod...

I'm a bit confused by your example, but it may be exactly what you're describing...

On a single track with multiple lanes..

If I select an individual lane/clip and execute an alt-click, it splits all of the lanes on the track instead of the single one I selected.

Maybe I was too confused and doing something wrong? I'm starting an album mix for a client today so I'm sure I'll be doing some comping and such a bit... I'll report more ASAP...

BTW... I do not currently use groups at all...

Thanks...
Keni

brundlefly

Anderton
 
Here are some things you CAN'T do with Take Lanes (at least I haven't figured out how):
 

• Do automatic crossfades within a Lane, because clips within the same lane can't overlap. Workaround: Create a new Take Lane, move the clip you want to crossfade into it, and do a manual fade in/fade out for the overlapping clips.

This one's a little weird, because you can do it if lanes are not showing when you create the overlap, and the Ref. Guide says the same will happen with lanes showing. I've reported this to the Bakers. Should be possible in Blend editing mode.
 
From the X3 Ref. Guide on page 384 under "Using Take Lanes":
 
"Note 2: If the Track view Options > Auto Crossfade option is enabled, SONAR adds acrossfade between any newly overlapped clips that are on the same Take lane."

You're right! Not showing the Take Lanes while doing the overlap was the solution. Thanks! I've gone back and edited the original post to reflect this.

stevec

neirbod

...The solution - use the "move data within a clip" feature of slip edit instead of moving the clip itself.  This leave the original take visible.  Once lined up, you can collapse the lanes and use crossfading on the track to make the edit seamless.
 
...1) I found that "move data within a clip" is essential for editing within take lanes. I rarely used this with layers, instead moving entire clips and then using layers' good tools for trimming edges of overlapping layers.  With lanes, using this approach I would get lots of tiny clip fragments and small gaps between.  Moving data within clips is much better for my workflow.
 

That is an often forgot editing ability that could really come in handy just as you've outlined.   And it's definitely something that I can see Craig including in his article since it completely eliminates editing clip boundaries. 
  

That is indeed a great tip. For those who don't remember the keyboard shortcut, it's Alt+Shift and click/drag in the clip's top half.

I stumbled into layer-like editing once in the last week, but wasn't paying enough attention to know how I did it (or even if it was really all that hard to get into that 'mode'). I haven't done it since, but only because the need hasn't come up again yet.
 
I can, however, say that it worked. I was able to rearrange clips using two take lanes as if they were layers and then bounced the end product to a new track... which I did rather quickly while crossing my fingers and hoping nothing went south before the bounce was finished.