Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime?

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CJaysMusic
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 02, 09 3:28 PM (permalink)
One more question Noel, how do you record a bus in real time....
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...wicked
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 02, 09 3:39 PM (permalink)
And not to split hairs, but The Wizard of OZ was more than just a "television show". The first true color movie, the dawn of Judy Garland's career, and a classic for both gay and straight people everywheres.

But sheesh man, how DO you record a bus in real-time?

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Mixotonic
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 02, 09 4:08 PM (permalink)
I was gonna split that hair too since that film predates television. With nothing more to add I'll just say

"The bus come by, I got on, thats when it all began"

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dreamkeeper
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 02, 09 5:39 PM (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

Right. You can however do this via a control surface with ACT during a realtime bounce.

Errr... didn't Bob Damiano somewhere say that ACT translates the controller messages into host automation? So, parameters that the plug-in doesn't expose to the host, can't be accessed through ACT, or can they? Which is why I wrote: "Some synths have parameters that cannot be automated..."

So, that still leaves me with the only (ok, not quite true: there's also Tape-It - but that's a clunky workaround) option: route through the soundcard mixer (24bit). Which forces me to take care of the levels - which can be tricky when tweaking synths in realtime. It's all too easy to clip heavily - after all, the aspect of unpredictability is the whole point of doing such stuff in the first place. Hope you get the point.

werner
post edited by dreamkeeper - February 02, 09 5:46 PM

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Lanceindastudio
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 02, 09 5:58 PM (permalink)
We dont need "busses". Just make tracks capable of buss duties and make them all able to be sent to each other with full flexibility.

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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 02, 09 6:44 PM (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Lanceindastudio

We dont need "busses". Just make tracks capable of buss duties and make them all able to be sent to each other with full flexibility.


BINGO!
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dontletmedrown
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 02, 09 6:46 PM (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

You can print the output of multiple buses to a single track in SONAR very easily. Just solo the buses you want and do a bounce to track with the default options. No realtime bounce is required.

ORIGINAL: dontletmedrown


Thank you. That definitely helps. I would like to see bus recording implemented the way tomflair speaks of. This is how it's done in Pro Tools and it's very helpful because it allows you to record from several different busses at the same time very quickly.

I appreciate your input Noel. I'd find it very helpful if you could also reply to the following thread:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1617645




Darn it Noel, I can't believe you quoted me and still didn't comment or post inside the THREAD mentioned in the quote. Can you please check that out? There are a few of us that are really in need of ASIO DM.

Here is the thread again: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1617645
post edited by dontletmedrown - February 02, 09 6:52 PM
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 02, 09 7:04 PM (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

You can print the output of multiple buses to a single track in SONAR very easily. Just solo the buses you want and do a bounce to track with the default options. No realtime bounce is required.

ORIGINAL: dontletmedrown


Thank you. That definitely helps. I would like to see bus recording implemented the way tomflair speaks of. This is how it's done in Pro Tools and it's very helpful because it allows you to record from several different busses at the same time very quickly.

I appreciate your input Noel. I'd find it very helpful if you could also reply to the following thread:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1617645




Ok, Noel. I'm trying hard to be polite here, but it seems like you don't understand what REALTIME BOUNCE means. It means: Record the bus just like an incoming audio track where I see the waveform and everything. It apparently is NOT already a feature.

Ok, let me give you a quick example of how Autotune "graphical mode" is used in a typical Pro Tools studio.

-Audio Track 1: Autotune in FX bin, Send to BUS 1
-Audio Track 2: Set to record FROM BUS 1
-Highlight first vocal phrase and hit "Track Pitch"
-Make adjustments, then record the single phrase onto track two: TUNED VOCAL IS NOW PRINTED WITH ORIGINAL LEFT UN-ALTERED
-move on to the 2nd voc phrase and go back to step one

Can you imagine how tedious this is for someone coming into Sonar from Pro Tools and having to a jump through hoops? Autotune is the perfect example since it's processing is not so extreme when it is only managing one phrase at a time instead of trying to track the pitch of the entire track. When we can record buses in REALTIME, the routing possibilities are endless. I would imagine that people migrating from Pro Tools would be your #1 target audience. I have to wonder why it would be so hard to implement this?

One more question: Noel, have you EVER used Pro Tools in a real life recording situation? I kinda think if you have, my suggestions would not seem so strange.
post edited by dontletmedrown - February 02, 09 7:09 PM
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 02, 09 7:17 PM (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Lanceindastudio
We dont need "busses". Just make tracks capable of buss duties and make them all able to be sent to each other with full flexibility.


I have to admit, and not to once again echo the ghost of brand "R", but having the ability to route any track/bus to any other track bus, as well as MULTIPLE track/bus combos, is really where the action is at. Of course it also implies the inputs of plugs as well, as then you can cross-modulate in ways that sidechaining can only barely accomplish.


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#39
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 9:05 AM (permalink)
Dave, I'm not inclined to get into an argument splitting hairs about your definition of "realtime bounce".

Have you tried what I suggested earlier? My point is that based on what you are trying to do it is easy to achieve the same end result in SONAR (even more efficiently than the method you quoted). Its not clear why you would want to wait for a realtime operation when the same operation can be performed instantly in a few moments using fast bounce.

I would argue that bounce is far more flexible in SONAR as compared to protools once you understand SONAR's workflow.
I see that you use the terminology "record from a bus". Protools is a hardware solution - unlike SONAR a bus is hardware therefore it is more natural in ProTools to capture the output of a bus using the same mechanics that they use for recording, i.e. in realtime. In SONAR buses are software objects that use host CPU to mix not hardware DSP so we have no good reason to capture the output of a bus using recording or in realtime for that matter. The ONLY reason we implemented realtime bounce was to capture LIVE inputs - i.e. inputs from hardware sources such as hardware synths (like our VS-700) or audio inputs. All other operations can be performed using the much quicker fast bounce mechanism that can capture the output of any tracks or buses in SONAR.

In your example here are the my proposed operations to do the same in SONAR. There may be other ways of doing it too.

-Audio Track 1: Autotune in FX bin, Send to BUS 1
-Audio Track 2: This is an empty track
- Tweak autotune until you hear what you want
- When ready, select the clip for the phrase you want to print - (make sure that this is the only object selected).
- Edit Bounce to Tracks
- Select track 2 as the target
- Set source category to buses.
- Select ONLY the effects bus
- bounce

This will bounce the effects bus to track 2 FASTER than realtime, giving you exactly what you got in Protools with the "record from Bus".

Noel

PS: Regarding your other link - I don't have any further information to add at this time besides what I was already quoted saying.

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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 9:18 AM (permalink)
Fast bounce doesn't work when you're trying to capture the audio output of a live performance on a softsynth, or when you're trying to record an audio input post-FX, etc. This is actually pretty annoying; I ran into it trying to record my guitar input after Guitar Rig so I could work with it the way I'd work with any actual recorded guitar; as it stands, I have to bounce to clips, which means that making comps sucks, because I have to bounce to clip and mute tracks BEFORE doing each new take or when I do the final bounce, all the clips just get summed together and then fed to the FX, and when you're using a gain-depended FX box that's horrible.

Also, fast bounce is pretty crappy and I have to disable it almost constantly and use realtime bounce for freezing and bouncing down from CPU heavy softsynths or Sonar will be plagued with dropouts. Even plugins that don't use any kind of DFD, like NI's Massive, will often lose their first note if I do a non-realtime bounce, so I always do it. I know you think it's a superfluous feature unless you're using hardware but I don't trust a nonrealtime bounce for anything that I really would need to bounce for...
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 10:00 AM (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]


In your example here are the my proposed operations to do the same in SONAR. There may be other ways of doing it too.

-Audio Track 1: Autotune in FX bin, Send to BUS 1
-Audio Track 2: This is an empty track
- Tweak autotune until you hear what you want
- When ready, select the clip for the phrase you want to print - (make sure that this is the only object selected).
- Edit Bounce to Tracks
- Select track 2 as the target
- Set source category to buses.
- Select ONLY the effects bus
- bounce

This will bounce the effects bus to track 2 FASTER than realtime, giving you exactly what you got in Protools with the "record from Bus".

Noel

PS: Regarding your other link - I don't have any further information to add at this time besides what I was already quoted saying.


Thank you for answering both of my questions. The only problem I can see with your Autotune workaround is that the resulting file will always be a stereo file, correct? Of course, I always record vocals as mono files. I'll try it when I get home. If I can use "Bounce to Tracks" and get a mono file that should work for me. I'll post again after I can try it out.

Thanks again,
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 12:46 AM (permalink)
True, it will be a stereo file by default unless you set the target channel format in the bounce to mono. That will give you a mono out.
Actually now that I understand what you are doing better I think you don't even need to capture the output of Bus1. Instead I think you could just do an even simpler bounce with source category set to "tracks" and target channel format set to mono. This will capture the output of your track without going through bus 1's effects at all, which is what you want I think.
Yet another alternative to this is to use clip effects if you really want to affect just one clip - however from your description and workflow it seems like you really want autotune to affect the entire track rather than be a per clip effect.

BTW just to clarify this isn't a workaround. Its a much more efficient and faster way of capturing the processed output of a track or clip than the bus recording method used in pro-tools. At some point I need to draw up a signal flow diagram to show the underlying routing in SONAR for all the permutations of the bounce command. Perhaps that might make the advantages to our method more clear.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - February 03, 09 12:57 AM

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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 1:09 PM (permalink)
Yeah, I guess a better way to explain my Autotune process (well, at least, the way I was taught in PT) is that I want to tune and print one phase at a time, but still have the original vocal comp left untuned. Thanks for trying to help me get this ironed out.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 1:24 PM (permalink)
Right thats why I said this "The ONLY reason we implemented realtime bounce was to capture LIVE inputs"
I'm not sure I understand your workflow. If you are using GR externally I think the preferred way to work with it might be to treat it as an external insert. Then you could freeze the track after you are done to print the effects but also keep the dry source.

Don't understand what you mean by fast bounce causing dropouts. There is no way fast bounce can cause dropouts since it does't operate in realtime. If anything realtime bounce can dropout since it relies on the transport being able to keep up.
Most problems with fast bounce are caused by bugs in plugins. Regarding the first note being lost do you see this with all plugins or just one. i.e. if you substitute the problem plugin with another one of ours does it still lose the first note? If so send us a problem report.

ORIGINAL: Toxikator

Fast bounce doesn't work when you're trying to capture the audio output of a live performance on a softsynth, or when you're trying to record an audio input post-FX, etc. This is actually pretty annoying; I ran into it trying to record my guitar input after Guitar Rig so I could work with it the way I'd work with any actual recorded guitar; as it stands, I have to bounce to clips, which means that making comps sucks, because I have to bounce to clip and mute tracks BEFORE doing each new take or when I do the final bounce, all the clips just get summed together and then fed to the FX, and when you're using a gain-depended FX box that's horrible.

Also, fast bounce is pretty crappy and I have to disable it almost constantly and use realtime bounce for freezing and bouncing down from CPU heavy softsynths or Sonar will be plagued with dropouts. Even plugins that don't use any kind of DFD, like NI's Massive, will often lose their first note if I do a non-realtime bounce, so I always do it. I know you think it's a superfluous feature unless you're using hardware but I don't trust a nonrealtime bounce for anything that I really would need to bounce for...


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#45
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 1:31 PM (permalink)
Got it. Another possible workflow in SONAR would be to use per clip effects (as long as you have enough memory to patch muliple instances of autotune. Split each phrase into a clip and patch autotune onto each clip.
This way you can tune each phrase independently. When you are done simply freeze the entire track. This will print it to the same track AND retain both the original track data as well as the autotune settings on each clip. All the autotune instances will be released from memory after the freeze.
The advantage here is that at any time you can quick unfreeze the track and get back all your original autotune settings and data.

ORIGINAL: dontletmedrown

Yeah, I guess a better way to explain my Autotune process (well, at least, the way I was taught in PT) is that I want to tune and print one phase at a time, but still have the original vocal comp left untuned. Thanks for trying to help me get this ironed out.


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UnderTow
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 1:38 PM (permalink)
Noel,

You seem to have missed the posts about plugins that do not properly reveal their internal parameters to the host. (Or just have bad automation). Also there are a few plugins with which I can create sounds by moving the mouse (X/Y pads) that can NOT be reproduced using automation. And they probably can not be achieved with ACT. (X/Y pads remember). I've tried mapping the X/Y pad on my Z1 but it just doesn't react the same way.

Here is an example of automation not fully reproducing what you hear when tweaking in real-time. The first wave is a sound going through DFX Buffer Override while click dragging the mouse over the X/Y pad and recording the output in real-time with TapeIt. The second wave is what results when bouncing that section to track and exporting the clip. (I clicked the Write enable button on the plugin before recorded the first file so my mouse "tweaks" were recorded to automation... kind of).



As you can see the bounced version does not even resemble the real-time recording. I trust you will believe me when I say it doesn't sound the same.

Please please add the ability to route a bus to the input of a track (and record it). People have been asking this for years and for very good reasons. Please stop assuming that it comes from a lack of understanding of Sonar. Please assume this is a more than legitimate request from users that know exactly what they are doing. Please do not assume that your way of doing things always is the best. Sometimes what might look like a convoluted approach IS better for a particular user. Maybe because of the way it fits into the creative process (which isn't always logical). Maybe because there are things you are missing (like the automation issues). Maybe because the user just wants to do it that way. We are the customers. We are right.

Thanks.

UnderTow

post edited by UnderTow - February 03, 09 1:45 PM
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 2:10 PM (permalink)
I'm aware of the issue where some plugins dont expose every param as automation. I wasn't suggesting using ACT as the ultimate solution for this. Ideally you would want to use the plugin GUI while doing a live bounce - we don't allow that yet.

Regarding routing a bus to the input of a track - I've seen requests for this but we've yet to see one concrete reason to do this that shows a viable and common use case that cannot be achieved with normal bussing.
Of course its possible to implement but please understand that we have to weigh requests like this alongside hundreds of other requests for potentially more pressing features. I can guarantee you that routing tracks to other tracks is not something 90% oif our users want to do.

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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 2:23 PM (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

Regarding routing a bus to the input of a track - I've seen requests for this but we've yet to see one concrete reason to do this that shows a viable and common use case that cannot be achieved with normal bussing.


I just gave you one concrete reason that can not be achieved with normal bussing. Others have too. Even in this thread...

Also many soft synths will sound slightly different when you record automation and then bounce/freeze. Especially when you use extreme settings on filters and things like that. I've seen it happen with Rapture so you can't blame it on cheap free plugins downloaded from the net or anything like that. Bouncing/freezing really isn't the panacea that you make it out to be.

If we could route the output of a bus to the input of a track, we could do all the things requested in this thread.

UnderTow
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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 4:05 PM (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]

I'm aware of the issue where some plugins dont expose every param as automation. I wasn't suggesting using ACT as the ultimate solution for this.

With respect, Noel - seems to me that you did exactly that in your reply to my post. Although I was specifically talking about such synths, you told me I could do this "via a control surface with ACT". Maybe you just didn't read what I wrote then? And just to add: among those synths is Absynth, which exposes only its macro controls. And even Omnisphere, with its over 14,000(!) automatable parameters, omits a few. Sure, that's not Sonar's fault - though with the addition of a simple straightforward feature, that's been asked for many times, you could make a lot of your users very happy.


ORIGINAL: UnderTow

If we could route the output of a bus to the input of a track, we could do all the things requested in this thread.

Exactly!

werner

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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 03, 09 10:55 PM (permalink)
Hey Noel - your inbox is full. (but thanks for the PM anyway)

I don't feel like typing it all again, but as for another use case: Is there any way to loop-record a synth with realtime-bounce?

werner

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RE: Sonar 8: How to record from a Bus in realtime? February 04, 09 1:52 PM (permalink)



hello noel!

are there any plans to implement a direct routing of a vsti as input for an audiochannel? being able to just record it with all its fx and automation without having to use the bounce dialogue?
actually with all the respect i think that the way that "realtime" recording of vstis is done now in sp8 is very quirky..

thanks




I do this with the freeze command and then i drag the frozen audio to a new audio track, seems easier in my workflow....

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