Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better!

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Anderton
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/05 20:01:54 (permalink)
sharke
Surely a pan law would not affect the relative balance of elements within a stereo track that's at 100% width i.e. both channels hard panned? For instance if your pan law is set to -3dB center then panning both left and right to center is going to attenuate both sides (and hence the whole mix). But if both sides are hard panned and you switch the pan law from -3dB center to 0dB center then nothing is going to happen because neither channel is panned to the center. There will be, of course, sounds in the stereo mix that are coming from the center, but they're centered by virtue of them existing at the same level in both channels, not because they're being "panned" by any mechanism within Sonar.



That makes total sense, but my head is exploding so I'm going to have to run some tests to make sure. I keep thinking about the graphics in the article I referenced that shows how something panned to center ended up at different levels even when fed with the same input signal, depending on different pan laws. Granted they were stereo tracks with mono input signals, and with stereo tracks we're sdealing with balance rather than true panning, but I want to look into this further. In theory, people shouldn't hear differences among DAWs but they swear they do.

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tenfoot
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/05 21:23:36 (permalink)
 
This is almost certainly a case of perceived rather than actual difference - a combination of a couple of cognitive biases such as confirmation bias combined with the contrast effect. It is worth reading up on how our brains work when we think we are making critical judgements. The shortcuts we take are called heuristics and they are truly fascinating. Heres a list if you are keen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
 
A blind study is really the only way to know for sure. The vast majority of credible blind studies done in the field of audio are revealing as to how prone to errors of judgement we are. Good examples are the  comparison of cheap vs expensive speaker cables (which not that surprisingly  found that no one could hear any difference greater than chance) and MP3 vs uncompressed audio, which more surprisingly also found that at higher bit rates there is no perceivable difference. The results of a study at Mcgill University

 
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~hockman/documents/Pras_presentation2009.pdf
 
Brando is right - it is something far more subjective. In short, we love Sonar so it sounds better:)

Bruce.
 
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#32
bapu
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/05 22:29:34 (permalink)
So.... John's assertion may be wrong?
 
Who'd a thunk it?
 
Well, me for one. I know for a fact that I can listen to any of my mixes and on one day I think it's on the brink of brilliance and on the next it stinks of silliness. The exact same mix.
#33
sharke
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/05 23:07:33 (permalink)
bapu
So.... John's assertion may be wrong?
 
Who'd a thunk it?
 
Well, me for one. I know for a fact that I can listen to any of my mixes and on one day I think it's on the brink of brilliance and on the next it stinks of silliness. The exact same mix.


Tell me about it. I've basked in the glory of my own artistic brilliance listening to a mix in the evening only to find myself, the next morning, jiggling the speaker cables in the vain hope that some loose connection is making it sound so bad.

James
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#34
Anderton
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 00:13:49 (permalink)
I knew Abner Spector, who produced "Sally Go Round the Roses" by the Jaynetts. He was obsessive sometimes and cut something like 70 masters of that song. There was one he was sure was "the one." Then he had to go away for a few days. When he came back, he couldn't tell the difference among any of them.
 
The ear is adaptive, which is why it's so important to listen to mixes with fresh ears, several times, before signing off on them.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#35
promidi
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 00:37:48 (permalink)
Makes me glad that when I was presented with Samplitude Pro X and Sonar x3 Producer qt the same time, both for exactly the same price, that I chose to go with Sonar X3 Producer...
#36
jih64
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 02:17:12 (permalink)
The way I would actually compare, is compare the clip/song recorded in Sonar, with the 'same' clip/song recorded in Samplitude, exact same recording method, exact same instruments, guitars whatever, exact same effects etc etc, then play each one off against each other. I do this every now and then with Sonar and REAPER, my ears tell me REAPER wins every time, even just listening to the same BFD drum track in each, REAPER just sounds instantly better to me for whatever reason. But I still carry on with Sonar %99 of the time, I think if REAPER was nicer visually I would probably switch back, there are a lot of things I like better in REAPER, and it's much 'lighter' and 'faster', not as much over head and beg a footprint, things load quicker, there is a lot of good stuff there, and maybe version 5 will lure me back. I lost a bit of confidence in Cake with the Rapture Pro release, and almost returned recently, but Sonars 'look' and 'feel' have spoil me a little I think :)
 
I know there is not supposed to be a/much of a difference, and that one day one thing might sound good and the next day meh, but there you go.
post edited by jih64 - 2015/06/06 02:25:24
#37
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 02:40:12 (permalink)
John
sharke
None of these "DAW X sounds different to DAW Y" claims are ever backed up with science.

They shouldn't. I agree.  But I did hear a noticeable difference in favor of Sonar. Please don't  ask me why.




Sonar has the best emulation of Monster cables and it's build into its entire internal routing ... they just can't advertise this because of patents, trademarks and this kinda things ...

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#38
GIM Productions
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 03:00:42 (permalink)
sharke
None of these "DAW X sounds different to DAW Y" claims are ever backed up with science.

Hi all,ok science......dawx and dawy sounds the same 15 years ago.It was another world.
Today with many daws and different alghoritms at the last of the chains (pro channel for sonar and many analog sat for other)the daw habe their sound.
i agree with you that the same daw must sound identical but with the same configuration different daw sounds different.
If not why develop different algho......one is enough.
Best

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#39
Vastman
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 03:11:29 (permalink)
There is a HUGE amount of confirmation and expectation bias operating within each human brain... 
There is also a lot of unique aspects to each daw, like Sonar's PC...
Isolating all the values/normalizing them/double blind study is all that is valid.
The rest of the comments are rubbish

Dana
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#40
OldTimerNewComer
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 04:00:56 (permalink)
John
I use WDM when ever possible.

Hi John. OT... would you mind, perhaps in another thread,
expanding on why you prefer WDM?
I know that all the empirical info points to asio
being best, and I use it, but is there a reason beyond the ability
to use multiple interfaces that you like it?
Sometimes,(maybe another placebo) I swear
WDM runs a little smoother(less glitchy?) on my system.
Thanks,
Mel

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#41
Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 05:12:17 (permalink)
Vastman
There is a HUGE amount of confirmation and expectation bias operating within each human brain... 
There is also a lot of unique aspects to each daw, like Sonar's PC...
Isolating all the values/normalizing them/double blind study is all that is valid.
The rest of the comments are rubbish

This.
#42
GIM Productions
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 06:41:37 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
Vastman
There is a HUGE amount of confirmation and expectation bias operating within each human brain... 
There is also a lot of unique aspects to each daw, like Sonar's PC...
Isolating all the values/normalizing them/double blind study is all that is valid.
The rest of the comments are rubbish

This.

Sorry but when i finish a job with Sonar i have in front of me a client or label's A/R not a scientist😆
best

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Producer....more stuff in SStudio, Rome ,Italy.
#43
John
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 07:17:35 (permalink)
tenfoot
 
This is almost certainly a case of perceived rather than actual difference - a combination of a couple of cognitive biases such as confirmation bias combined with the contrast effect. It is worth reading up on how our brains work when we think we are making critical judgements. The shortcuts we take are called heuristics and they are truly fascinating. Heres a list if you are keen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
 
A blind study is really the only way to know for sure. The vast majority of credible blind studies done in the field of audio are revealing as to how prone to errors of judgement we are. Good examples are the  comparison of cheap vs expensive speaker cables (which not that surprisingly  found that no one could hear any difference greater than chance) and MP3 vs uncompressed audio, which more surprisingly also found that at higher bit rates there is no perceivable difference. The results of a study at Mcgill University
 
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~hockman/documents/Pras_presentation2009.pdf
 
Brando is right - it is something far more subjective. In short, we love Sonar so it sounds better:)


Normally I would totally agree with this. except in this case I was not trying to hear a difference at all. It was the fact that I did that was why I opened it up in Sonar to see if it was the mix that sounded bad. I have stated without qualification this was not a scientific test in fact there was no test at all.
 
I have been doing this for nearly thirty years or so. I know how easy it is to be mistaken when one expects a difference. Before I was doing recording I was into high quality audio.
 
If you haven't read the whole thread you wont know all of what I have said in it.
 
One can doubt what I am saying. That would be a fair and safe thing to do. In this case it would also be wrong. I have no explanation for this.      

Best
John
#44
John
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 07:22:47 (permalink)
OldTimerNewComer
John
I use WDM when ever possible.

Hi John. OT... would you mind, perhaps in another thread,
expanding on why you prefer WDM?
I know that all the empirical info points to asio
being best, and I use it, but is there a reason beyond the ability
to use multiple interfaces that you like it?
Sometimes,(maybe another placebo) I swear
WDM runs a little smoother(less glitchy?) on my system.
Thanks,
Mel


Its really simple.  In my setup ASIO and WDM sound and perform the same. I choose WDM for convenience.   

Best
John
#45
John
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/06 07:47:10 (permalink)
In Samplitude there appears to be different audio engines.
 
Below is from the Samplitude X2 Pro manual.
 
Hybrid Engine and Economy Tracks
Very small audio buffers ("Low latency" mode) increase the CPU strain of the
playback engine. For optimal use of the PC resources, we recommend using the mixer
tracks in "Low latency" mode only. This includes:
• Monitor tracks
• Tracks with VSTis
Tracks that play hard disk content (MIDI or audio files) may be taken out of "Low
latency" mode in the Hybrid Engine by assigning the "Economy" property to them.
These tracks will then use the play engine's buffer (VIP buffer size).


I have tried to figure out what all this actually means but I'm still looking.

Best
John
#46
OldTimerNewComer
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/07 08:02:52 (permalink)
John
OldTimerNewComer
John
I use WDM when ever possible.

Hi John. OT... would you mind, perhaps in another thread,
expanding on why you prefer WDM?
I know that all the empirical info points to asio
being best, and I use it, but is there a reason beyond the ability
to use multiple interfaces that you like it?
Sometimes,(maybe another placebo) I swear
WDM runs a little smoother(less glitchy?) on my system.
Thanks,
Mel


Its really simple.  In my setup ASIO and WDM sound and perform the same. I choose WDM for convenience.   


ok, thank you.
Me too.
 
Mel

Asus Sabertooth Z77. OCZ "Stealth" PSU 700w. 
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AMD Radeon HD6450 CE 2GB DDR3 video.
Corsair DDR3 1600Mhz (32 Gig). 
Kingston 512 GB SSD(OS/Software).
WD 500 GB SATA(data) + 1 TB external.
Focusrite Saffire Pro 40(FW)-v3.4.
Windows 10 Pro
Sonar Platinum Jamaica Plains Update
________________________________________
 
Ultimately YOU will be the hardest to convince that the Cake is done... Finish it.
 
My Stuff:
https://www.reverbnation.com/skeletonkrew9
 
#47
Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/07 08:31:59 (permalink)
I'll be interested to hear how this plays out. I would normally first doubt your perception but since you say you are aware of this effect and it was very clear beyond this, my guess goes towards some unintended setting. I have a really really hard time believing that DAWs would have a different sound from regular stereo WAV playback. Even the voodoo differences people normally talk about (DAW X sounds better than Y) tend to focus on things like summing.
#48
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/07 11:12:48 (permalink)
ASIO bypasses MS code layers allowing the driver manufacturer to write their own stack instead to access the HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) or even bypass it. It's a way different beast to WDM.
If your WDM driver performs better you are most likely comparing to a badly written ASIO driver.
If you check the Windows 10 thread, MS confirms ASIO will still be the best experience for DAW's, even though it originally came from Steinberg and not them! 
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/06/07 11:25:27

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#49
John
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/07 11:35:12 (permalink)
Doktor Avalanche
ASIO bypasses MS code layers allowing the driver manufacturer to write their own stack instead to access the HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) or even bypass it. It's a way different beast to WDM.
If your WDM driver performs better you are most likely comparing to a badly written ASIO driver.
If you check the Windows 10 thread, MS confirms ASIO will still be the best experience for DAW's, even though it originally came from Steinberg and not them! 


No, I'm saying they perform the same to me. I run Windows 8.1. 

Best
John
#50
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/07 11:42:21 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
I'll be interested to hear how this plays out. I would normally first doubt your perception but since you say you are aware of this effect and it was very clear beyond this, my guess goes towards some unintended setting. I have a really really hard time believing that DAWs would have a different sound from regular stereo WAV playback. Even the voodoo differences people normally talk about (DAW X sounds better than Y) tend to focus on things like summing.

We are on the same page. I have posted often that the sound of a DAW should be the same as any other DAW except the few that have DSP going on all the time; Mixbus for example.
 
 

Best
John
#51
Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/07 12:42:01 (permalink)
Did you compare you mixdown WAV in Samplitude to your running project in Sonar or did you load the WAV into empty projects in both DAWs?

EDIT: sorry, just read your OP again - same file. Curiouser and curiouser.

However, it seems to me that if the DAW imparts a sound that should hold through mixdown. So perhaps you could bounce the Samplitude file and upload it together with the Sonar-created original. Perhaps one of us can find a clue what caused it, or at least admit hearing a difference.
post edited by Sanderxpander - 2015/06/07 12:59:46
#52
bitflipper
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/07 13:06:37 (permalink)
My first instinct upon reading the opening post was that this might just be the result of your unfamiliarity with Samplitude. That would my assumption if it was me - that I was committing some noob mistake.
 
As you're well aware, loading a stereo wave and playing it back in its original file format without any processing (not even volume adjustments) should yield exactly the same results regardless of which DAW you're listening to. Pan laws do not come into play.
 
You could export the wave file from each DAW and perform a null test. If they null out perfectly (as they should) then you'll know with certainty that it's expectation bias at work. If they don't null, then there's been some kind of inadvertent processing applied, e.g. wordlength reduction or accidental application of dither. 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#53
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/07 13:24:23 (permalink)
bitflipper
My first instinct upon reading the opening post was that this might just be the result of your unfamiliarity with Samplitude. That would my assumption if it was me - that I was committing some noob mistake.
 
As you're well aware, loading a stereo wave and playing it back in its original file format without any processing (not even volume adjustments) should yield exactly the same results regardless of which DAW you're listening to. Pan laws do not come into play.
 
You could export the wave file from each DAW and perform a null test. If they null out perfectly (as they should) then you'll know with certainty that it's expectation bias at work. If they don't null, then there's been some kind of inadvertent processing applied, e.g. wordlength reduction or accidental application of dither. 


Dave I thought of that too. I wouldn't expect them not to null. No processing is going on therefor no change to the file. 
 
I was mistaken on one issue. Samplitude Pro X2 has its own ASIO driver and that was engaged when I listened. In Sonar Platinum I use WDM/KS. I had forgotten I had changed this in Sam for various reasons.
 
One thing to be aware of here.  I am no noob. I know Sam well enough. Also, even if I didn't playing back a wav file with nothing else going is not rocket science. 

Best
John
#54
Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/07 18:11:53 (permalink)
Sooo... Don't leave us hanging - does it sound the same when they're both using the same WDM driver?
#55
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/07 18:35:29 (permalink)
Yes they sound very very close. This is using the same driver (WDM) in both.
 
Keep in mind I thought they were the same. But now I recall switching to Magix's  ASIO low latency driver because certain things within Samplitude uses it and are unavailable with WDM. I wont make that mistake again. 
 
I wouldn't have noticed this if I was just doing a recording or creating a song with Sam. It was only because I knew how this song was supposed to sound that I got curious. Nor did it occur to me that a third party driver could impact the sound so much in such a bad way. 
 
The mystery has been solved. 

Best
John
#56
Sanderxpander
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Re: Sonar Platinum Sounds 20 to 40% better! 2015/06/07 21:07:34 (permalink)
I wouldn't have expected that either. Thanks for the heads up.
#57
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