Sonar X2a, Multiple Instances of Microtonic, Memory & Cold-Quits (SOLVED)

Stay positive, 2:43AM...stay positive...
 
I really try, but sometimes it's hard. However, instead of stewing in my own juices, I reach out for help. Well, the walls of my pit are quite muddy and slick, but perhaps I will eventually be able to climb out.
 
Latest problem: Running multiple instances of Microtonic (v3.1, 64-bit) causes MAJOR crashes. It does not matter if I load the VST into the FX Bin, or load it as an "Instrument," either Simple or Multi-Out. After playing anywhere between 10-40 seconds, Sonar X2a crashes and crashes hard. Crashes range from Memory Errors (see below), WSOD's, Unexpected Stops, or complete-quits (i.e. clean crashes to desktop, no report, nothing in Event Viewer). Any crash seems random.
 

 
I reached out to Sonic Charge, and the original developer was extremely kind and helpful. He demonstrated in a video that he quickly put together that running up to four copies of Microtonic proved to be successful with no errors/crashes. I mimicked his techniques, but I still experienced the crashes.
 
So I decided to do a little troubleshooting of my own.  Here are my tests and results (test project files have nothing in them except for what is required for the test--audio tracks and Microtonic; no other plugins):
 
1. Increase ASIO buffer latency in MixControl from 128 to 512, thereby increasing round-trip from 7.9ms to 23.6ms!
RESULT: Crash - WSOD.
2. Restart computer; start fresh.
RESULT: Crash - WSOD; unexpected Stop. Event Viewer reports crash of sonarprd.exe.
3. Disable the 64-Bit Precision thing in Preferences.
RESULT: Crash to desktop.
4. Noticed Mr. Lidström had 44.1/16 displayed in the Sonar transport module screen. This gave me the idea to jump out of ASIO and run WDM/KS mode as I am locked into 48kHz and 24-bit due to the Alesis Ai3 (ADAT). So disabled MixControl ASIO driver and re-enabled my onboard soundcard drivers (Realtek). Restart. Ran Sonar. Ran Wave Profiler. Verified 44.1 with drop down to 16-bit.
RESULT: Crash to desktops and memory crashes.
5. Made bootable USB to run MemTest in BIOS. Performed physical memory check for 1.5 hours.
RESULT: No errors. Assume good memory.
6. Back again after restart and tested Sonar and Microtonic again.
RESULT: Unexpected stop. Event Viewer reports crash of ntdll.dll.
 
So I think I may have exhausted all I can do for testing purposes. I am out of ideas, except for one little, tiny clue. Whether or not it's relevant is beyond me...
 
Despite the Sonar Preference indicating that bit depth is 16-bit, the Transport Module still shows (44.1) 24.  For some reason, Sonar is not bumping the "reported" bit depth down to 16. What's interesting to note is that even if I try to set the pref to 24, and then hit apply, I receive an error dialog box saying that 24-bit is not supported, and the setting has been reset to 44100 Hz (16 bit), as suggested by the driver. Result? Still shows 24 in the Transport Module. Is this a valid clue? Perhaps Sonar is getting confused in bit ranges? If so, then why is it still crashing when I am in ASIO mode?
 
I'm an effort to clean up ASIO mode, I've ordered a SIIG PCIe Firewire card. I hope it helps, but I have my doubts.
 
Can anyone help me please? Does anyone have Microtonic that can also perform the tests, running multiple instances of the VST at once? Anything else I should try? Is the installation of Sonar corrupt? Do I honestly need to reinstall yet again? (sigh).

I forgot to add that for my above post to go back to ASIO mode.
 
Bob Bone
 
 

He indicated he had run a memory test for an hour and a half - that was sort of buried in the middle of the post.
 
Bob Bone
 
 
 

Whoa. Thanks for the responses so far guys. I appreciate it. I will try to answer your questions...
 
From Robert_e_bone:
What do you have the ASIO Buffer Size set to for the interface?
ASIO Buffer is normally set to 128 in Focusrite's MixControl v3.2
Also, what Sample Rate is set in Sonar?  (48k?)
48000
To set the record bit-depth, you change that in Preferences>File>Audio Data Record Bit Depth (24).
Audio Driver Bit Depth is 24 (and grayed out, i.e. not adjustable) with 64-bit Double Precision Engine checked. Record bit depth is 24, Render depth is 32 and Import is "Original."
How does the interface connect to the computer?
Firewire port on the mobo.
Lastly, are you able to playback any audio, such as a plain old MP3/WMA song file?  Or, is it any specific project(s) that are causing these crashes?
Generally, I am crash free. I can use Sonar relatively pain-free except for the occasional crash. I can get audio to playback just fine as well as record. The computer is pretty solid overall. And Sonar is relatively solid.  One Microtonic can run all day long. However, multiple Microtonics break its back!
 
From daveny:
I'd run a full memory test. Could be a bad chip.
Yes. I ran a memory test.  The program ran for 1-1/2 hours in BIOS and reported no errors.
 
From lawp:
Is microtonic sending midi out?
Not that I know of. I can receive MIDI but not send it out.

Brando
I have Microtonic. Never tried to run multiple instances honestly. I love it and it is really solid here. But I'll be happy to give this a try this weekend. When you say "multiple" - do you always get a crash when you have 2 instances, or 3 instances, etc.?

Brando...much appreciated for the tests when you get a chance. If two or more instances of Microtonic are playing at the same time, then Sonar just completely calls it quits on life of its existence in ones and zeros!
 
One thing to mention is that I am attempting to run 2+ copies of the 64-bit edition, version 3.1.

robert_e_bone
I did some poking around - here is a thread that has a reported issue on crashes on a 2nd instance of Microtonic:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Sonar-producer-x2crashes-when-opening-projectswhen-closing-projectsmany-other-problems-m2824295.aspx
 
Does your computer sleep?  That was discussed in the above thread.

I remember that thread. Funny how I forgot I posted that. Well, it seems like my problem still continues! I still sleep my computer on a nightly basis, but if I plan on working on some music, then I do a full restart before opening Sonar for that session. That's my new policy, and so far, it has help with other issues. And for all of the tests that I have done in my long-winded first post, I made sure the computer was restarted each time.

2:43AM
Brando, have you had a chance to test?

Hey Tony - 
Sorry - I completely forgot about this post. I finally picked up your PM today and figured I would give this a try. I am also using the 64 bit version of Microtonic, also version 3.1.0. SONAR X2a (64 bit) in Windows 8.
I started out with just a single instance of Microtonic, synced to a project with Jamstix (16 tracks) and one instance of Lounge Lizard with an instance of Strum Electric. There were a couple of effects on both of the synths (Overloud VKFX etc) and Input Echo was 'on' on both of the AAS synths. I also had an instance of Permut8 in the Fx bin of the instance of Microtonic receiving MIDI from a MIDI track.
Everything was good, Microtonic synced right up with Jamstix, no glitches, no gaps, etc.
I added a second instance of Microtonic, selected a different preset, and repeated - same thing.
I added another instance - and then another. In a nutshell, I was able to load up 6 instances of Microtonic and had no problem - no glitches, no crackles. The CPU climbed only slightly with each instance. I didn't stretch it to the breaking point since you said you had a crash with two instances of Microtonic. 
(In fact - while I was drafting this I went back to my DAW and tried another couple of instances - I did get X2 to crash while I was playing around with a 7th instance of Microtonic.)
The cpu didn't get objectionably high - so I don't know if this is symptomatic of a problem with Microtonic or with SONAR. 
If there is something else you want me to try out - let me know -  
 
 
 
 

Curiouser and curiouser - 
I started a project with nothing but Microtonic. First a single instance - and let it play away at 120 BPM - I stopped the transport at 5 minutes.
I added a second instance of Microtonic - so nothing in the project but 2 instances of Microtonic.
I can play either instance from its own GUI Play button independently, but when I clicked the main transport Play button, I got an instant crash and SONAR poofed out of existence.
I am going to try to repeat the situation with Jamstix and Microtonic - 
Hmmm.....

Brando, you are the man!  There is something VERY STRANGE going on here!  Thank you very much for testing and posting your results.  This is a weird issue, indeed.  Early on, I pointed the developer of Microtonic to this thread. I hope he is reading it and staying up on the results. If so, I bet he's as puzzled as we are!
 
Well, I just tried a new, blank project and added one instance of Tremor.  I then proceeded to add three Microtonics before Sonar crashed and Windows asked to close the program.
 
Up to 2, it seemed stable.  I will try again and see how long it goes.
 
Brando, when you're adding each instance of Microtonic, are you putting the Microtonics into the same FX bin of one audio track, or creating a new audio track and then adding each new instance to its FX bin? I am doing the latter.  Just want to confirm your process.
 
I know you have things to do, and crashes do indeed suck, but if you don't mind...please take a peek at the Windows Event Viewer to see what appears in the Application Log at time of crash.  I get repeated Sonarpdr.exe and ntdll.dll faults.

Incidentally I almost exclusively use simple instrument tracks for my soft synths here despite some concerns about them on these forums. So that's what I used here but with input echo disabled on each instance.

Well - if you go back to Lawp's question of 2 weeks ago, it turns out I think he had the answer.
It turns out, at least in my installation, Microtonic is set up by default to send MIDI out.
I turned off MIDI out in each instance of Microtonic, and have been running 5 instances of Microtonic for the past 8+ minutes without a hiccup. Microtonic is the only thing in this project, which would have definitely resulted in a crash previously.
(To turn it off, go to MIDI Config from the Main Menu in Microtonic, then deselect "Pattern Engine Sends MIDI Notes")
I only ever use Microtonic for its own on-board sounds, so doubt that the need to use it to trigger something else would ever be something I would use. I guess if you needed this, you would need to limit yourself to a single instance.
I know that in the past SONAR users have been critical of MIDI crosstalk errors - not sure this is a remnant of some of those issues, or a quirk in Microtonic.
2:43AM - please give this a try and let me know how/whether it works for you.
 
 
 

glad you found it; i didn't know microtonic put midi out which is why i asked; the bug is true for multiple VST that send MIDI out - if they happen to send midi at the same time sonar goes bye-bye; you can test this with 2 instances of jamstix, catayana, kirnu cream, etc - any that send midi out; cake know about it, for a while now

Brando
Well done lawp- good call. 2:43AM - glad you got the problem sorted. I also hope Magnus fixes this to allow you to disable this option as as a default. Even more, Cake needs to fix the MIDI cross-talk bug- it's been going on for far too long.

Ah, it can indeed be saved for default.  In the MIDI config menu, there is a button to the right called Make Default. Disable "Pattern engine sends MIDI notes" and click this button. Subsequent loads of Microtonic will have the feature properly disabled... at least proper for Sonar!

Brando
Well that's good to know- thanks 2:43AM - Magnus is a great developer. How are you liking Permut8 so far? I also have Bitspeek which is fun but haven't bitten on Synplant yet. Eventually. Their 'Patternarium' for Microtonic is genius.
Thanks for finding this-

Yes, Patternarium is pretty sweet. However, I find that most patterns and beats created are too complex for overall usability. It is, however, a great source for inspiration and offers a drum-sound buffet, which allows you to pick and choose from the various examples to build your own "kit."
 
I am demoing Permut8 now. I like what it can do, but programming is a bit (no pun intended) of a pain. For $60, I may pick it up anyway. I bought Synplant as a combo deal with Microtonic. Synplant is very lightweight, and it has a cool interface, offering a unique approach at patch generation. However, i find creating a good sound is pretty random, maybe a little too random. You can tweak seed DNA, but who the hell wants to do that?!?
 
It can create some cool, new sounds, however.