Helpful ReplySonar X3 Bus Question

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TremoJem
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 09:27:57 (permalink)
O.K. I got it but...
 
I use a drum buss and understand the efficiency of using busses.
 
Here is my understanding, please correct any error I might have.
 
If you send five guitar tracks to an "FX Buss", and then you put a reverb on that buss, won't each track get the same reverb, which may be desirable, but, not if you want three different types of reverb for three of the five guitars...right?
 
In other words, as long as the tracks on an FX Buss don't mind sharing the exact same eq curve, delay settings, reverb settings, etc. then go for it.
 
If you want specific FX on a track, then add it to that track...right?

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#31
ston
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 09:52:03 (permalink)
You usually wait for bloody ages then three come along all at once
 
...what's that?  The wrong kind of bus you say?
 
Ah, OK then...a bus is typically a stereo channel to which you can route other channels or sends for the purpose of applying the same processing or control over the sounds routed (grouped) there.
 
> If you send five guitar tracks to an "FX Buss", and then you put a reverb on that buss, won't each track get the same reverb, which may be desirable, but, not if you want three different types of reverb for three of the five guitars...right?
 
Yup.  (Note - same reverb, but not necessarily the same amount of reverb, depending on the individual channels' send levels).
 
> In other words, as long as the tracks on an FX Buss don't mind sharing the exact same eq curve, delay settings, reverb settings, etc. then go for it.
 
> If you want specific FX on a track, then add it to that track...right?
 
Yeah.  Buses aren't just used for effects, for example they're handy for controlling the volume level of a grouped set of sounds (perhaps backing vocals, or rhythm guitars).  Also, they're used to produce stems for mixing/mastering purposes.
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TremoJem
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 10:22:26 (permalink)
Thanks Ston, but I must be missing something..."send level" for each track.
 
On my Sonar 7PE, I have "trim", "volume", but no "send".
 
I know you are thinking to yourself.."this guy has had this since 2008 and he doesn't know about this".
 
I just started using it. Many reasons why, but no excuses...LOL.
 
Busy with a two year plus home improvement project, new job, grandchildren, band broke up, etc. etc.
 
Anyway, where is the "send" and how do I use it?
 
Thanks.

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#33
js516
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 10:36:04 (permalink)
The send level is located on the track header of the channel that is sending audio to a bus. If you don't see it, the area may be hidden. There are several ways to get it to unhide, the fastest is to change the drop down that is set to "Mix" by default, to "All" (I hijacked the image from the Docs page. the drown is below the highlighted menus):
 

 
In the console view, you can unhide them by selecting "Options->Sends" and selecting one of the options.
 
http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=SONAR%20X2&Lang=EN&Req=Views.33.html
 
In either case, you will get four controls: Send Level, Send Pan, a switch to select if the send is "Post" fader or not, and a switch to turn the send on or off.

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#34
AT
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 10:41:54 (permalink)
I used to use buss, like John, to differentiate it from the mass form of transportation.  However, I've given up kicking against the pricks, and just use one "s" these days.
 
As to usage (of the thing, not the term) of buses, it helps to go back to the early days of recording to get a sense of how buses developed.  Originally, there was a single bus on mixing boards, and when I say single I mean mono.  You combined several inputs to a mono output.  Then stereo, using a switch for channels and then pan pots.  If you listen to early/mid sixties mixes they really didn't know what to do w/ the stereo space.  Listen to an origianl mix of Cream's "Sunshine of your love" and you'll find Ginger's drums to one side.  Or Beatles stuff when it got mixed for stereo.  Vocals on one side, drums on the other, etc, etc.
 
Then things got better and more complex.  Submixing got built into mixing desks, both sends and buses.  Sends are a way to tap off the input signal and send it somewhere else than where the track itself is sent.  Common uses are for monitoring (headphones or stage monitoring) and reverb, since in the analog outboard days you weren't likely to have many tape/spring units available.  Lack of hardware is also part of the reason buses developed.  Early on compressors and limiters (which were developed for mastering to vinyl) got put on drums etc. to keep their volume under control.  However, if you only have a couple of these units, it was better use to send all the drums to the unit, rather than strap it across the kick channel only.  And once you had a bus, more helped even if you didn't have a bunch of fairchild's laying around.  Because all the drums, all the guitars, all the backing vocals could go on a bus w/ a fader and you could control the relative volume of the same using that one fader rather than mucking around w/ a larger number of faders and trying to keep their relative volume the same.
 
This lead to the common mixing board convention of tracks, sends for common effects (like reverb), and buses for grouping control (of volume, eq and compression, etc).  And all these electrical connections, wiring and harnesses, and electronics made for old mixing desks larger than subcompact cars and more expensive than houses.  For digtial, however, it is a bit of 1s and 0s.  Cakewalk a few years ago made much of the fact that in SONAR buses and sends were the same, but still kept the naming convention.  The convention sticks because 1. it works, and 2. most engineers are comfortable w/ it.  Why re-invent the wheel? 
 
IF you've ever used some of the german (or in my case dutch) digital mixers like in TC or RME, it is a mare's nest to understand.  It is like the man in white in Catch 22, where the nurses religiously switch out his pee jar w/ his IV jar.  Stick to the conventions and don't worry about the spelling of bus. 
 
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#35
TremoJem
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 11:19:23 (permalink)
I am using Sonar 7PE for now, as I have not taken possession of my new Studio Cat DAW from Jim Roseberry yet, it will ship today.
 
So, if I look at the bottom of my screen, there are tabs to select from. I always select "All", but still no "sends".
 
At the bottom left is a drop down menu that allows me to select "sends" and by default "2" was selected.
 
I better dig into this, thanks.

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#36
js516
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 12:00:35 (permalink)
Oops. :)
 
If you selected "all", and you don't have any sends defined yet, you wont see them.
 
The easiest way to add a send is to use send assistant, which is outlined here:
 
http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=SONAR%20X2&Lang=EN&Req=Mixing.13.html
 

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 12:04:53 (permalink)
Yes, you need to INSERT a send from all of the tracks that you want to have the same Effect on your Fx bus applied to (in varying amounts usually, but there's no law about having the same amount of effect being sent from multiple tracks)

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TremoJem
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 12:05:29 (permalink)
I discovered that if I right click in the track and select "insert send", it will display the send level, send pan, and send pre/post information. Thanks.
 
Yikes...what do I benefit from when selecting pre/post fader?
 
I think I get it, but really don't, thanks.

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#39
scook
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 12:10:50 (permalink)
Pre-fader sends are useful when the downstream effects work from a threshold value.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 12:27:16 (permalink)
It also depends on what you want to hear as you fade in/out your track.
 
If you want the Effect to fade proportionally at the same rate as the master fader then you'll want this to always be set to Post.
 
Pre does have uses as outlined by scook

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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 13:25:19 (permalink)
I'm always fascinated by how much knowledge is ultimately disseminated in these threads given the relatively simple questions that initiate them.  I learn something new/valuable every time I visit here.
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TremoJem
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Re: Sonar X3 Bus Question 2014/01/02 13:30:28 (permalink)
Thanks guys.

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