Helpful ReplySonar X3 files suddenly get too large

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NeckHumbucker
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2015/12/28 18:21:01 (permalink)

Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large

Hi all,
 
I use Sonar X3e, and I noticed after working on a project for a while it takes way too long to save the file, this is paired with big jump in file size. When I look at the versions ( I save manually), file size, for example, goes to 47Mb from 3Mb. Saving the file takes way too long, and sometimes It kind of gets stuck, and cannot finish saving, at that point I have to rebuild my project from scratch. This is very painful, as I am in the middle of a production. I use auto-save and versioning is enabled, if that is relevant.
Please help, any insights appreciated as to why this happens, how to avoid it. 
#1
jpetersen
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/28 19:08:03 (permalink)
Do you mean the entire project folder, or only the {myproject}.cwp file?
#2
NeckHumbucker
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/28 19:12:05 (permalink)
CWP file only.
 
I made a new copy of my recent project today, it was 47Mb, now 632Mb! I store wav files outside cwp file in an audio folder.
post edited by NeckHumbucker - 2015/12/28 19:26:04
#3
mettelus
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/28 19:13:06 (permalink)
Melodyne edits are actually saved in the cwp file if left unrendered. It is best practice to use small region FX for Melodyne and render them rather than leave them "active."

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NeckHumbucker
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/28 19:16:46 (permalink)
I didn't use melodyne for this project. 
In the past I thought it was because of some bad VSTs, but now I only use quality trusted plugins, and mostly Sonar's built-in eq etc. 
#5
NeckHumbucker
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/28 20:05:38 (permalink)
Currently saving a cwp takes about 3-4 minutes. It was almost instantaneous this morning when file size was 3Mb. I haven't recorded anything today, just straightforward editing, chopping.
While saving the project, I see a TMP file in project folder, that grows from 0Mb to 632Mb (current size of cwp), that's when saving is done.  There is plenty of space on my harddrive. Harddrive's in good healthy state.
What's happening?
#6
scook
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/28 20:40:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby NeckHumbucker 2015/12/30 20:46:23
#7
Anderton
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/28 20:52:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby konradh 2015/12/29 08:56:41
It's often large amounts of AudioSnap info. Saving as a bundle file strips it out - save as bundle, open, re-save using standard procedures.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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NeckHumbucker
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/28 21:33:58 (permalink)
AudioSnap could be it. I use AudioSnap to chop up drum tracks. But I understand in X3 Audiosnap is neber turned off, but it is a different view, so quite possibly Sonar keeps those zillion info and at some point file gets corrupt. 
 
Anderton
It's often large amounts of AudioSnap info. Saving as a bundle file strips it out - save as bundle, open, re-save using standard procedures.



I just tried to save as a bundle, however "save" button in save as dialog is grayed out. Any ideas why that is happening? Thanks a lot. 
#9
NeckHumbucker
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/29 00:56:17 (permalink)
Recovered! Thanks a lot. "Save" buttin was grayed out in Save as Bundle dialog because there were still audiosnap and slipstretched audio in the project. Edit-Select-All Audiosnap/Slipstretched command came handy. 
Thanks a lot for your help. 
 
BUT this is HUGE bug. This is my 4th or 5th incident. And I lost a whole day of work today. Sonar should address this immediately. Even by looking at how audiosnap transient markers are displayed and rendered when scrolling, one can tell it is not a solid implementation.
 
Sonar is getting away from me, getting unnecessarily complex even when I don't want it. Moving from v6-8 to X series was like moving to completely new platform. At the next big release, I'll consider other DAWs as a destination for moving, if it is going to be a complete new experience.
 
Sonar, please learn something from Adobe, their workflow, menus, every major feature are still the same way after so many releases, they maintained operability while staying current.
 
 
#10
mudgel
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/29 03:57:23 (permalink)
A bundle file will always be much larger as it contains all the projects audio files.

A Cakewalk project cwp.file doesn't contain any audio. Everything else but the audio.

You could try opening the project and saving it with a new name and see if that reduces the file size.
post edited by mudgel - 2015/12/29 04:10:53

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/29 05:15:59 (permalink)
Whenever I work with Audiosnap, Transient markers or Melodyne, I always bounce to clip when I've done.

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Anderton
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/29 12:00:15 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
Whenever I work with Audiosnap, Transient markers or Melodyne, I always bounce to clip when I've done.



^^This. These are editing functions, not playback functions. If you think you'll change your mind later about wanting to re-edit a track, clone it, archive it (so it doesn't use CPU), and hide it (to avoid visual clutter).

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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brundlefly
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/29 14:26:44 (permalink)
NeckHumbucker
BUT this is HUGE bug. 



It's not a problem if you know the cause. If you want to get rid of transient markers and slip-edits after using AS to split at transients just uncheck the Enable box in the Audiosnap section of the Clip properties with all the clips still selected immediately after splitting, and then right-click the selection and Apply Trimming. This gets rid of all the AS markers and slip-edit boundary tracking.
 
Having hundred or thousands of clips referencing small segments of each audio file will still make the the file larger, but not as gargantuan as having slip-edited clips with AS enabled on every clip.
 
A feature that allows doing this automatically as an option for Split Beats to Clips would be good to have.

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#14
NeckHumbucker
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/30 20:33:39 (permalink)
brundlefly
NeckHumbucker
BUT this is HUGE bug. 



It's not a problem if you know the cause. If you want to get rid of transient markers and slip-edits after using AS to split at transients just uncheck the Enable box in the Audiosnap section of the Clip properties with all the clips still selected immediately after splitting, and then right-click the selection and Apply Trimming. This gets rid of all the AS markers and slip-edit boundary tracking.
 
Having hundred or thousands of clips referencing small segments of each audio file will still make the the file larger, but not as gargantuan as having slip-edited clips with AS enabled on every clip.
 
A feature that allows doing this automatically as an option for Split Beats to Clips would be good to have.




It is a problem because it is a bug, it is not a feature that I just discovered how to use. 
I do exactly how you described: Use AS to split audio, disable AS, trim and bounce. 
BUT that doesn't get rid of the AS info. That is the problem, because it is a bug.
 
Whenever you select Audio Transients in edit filter, audio gets analyzed for AS automatically, and even after you turn off AS at clip level, and change edit filter back to Clip, that AS info stays in the file, and then gets corrupt. 
 
and This was not a problem in earlier releases, only in X3, so that again makes it a problem that needs be fixed.
Any serious software company would take a data corruption problem very seriously, but that doesn't seem to be the case with Sonar. Look-and-feel is more important apparently.
 
#15
Anderton
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/30 21:12:03 (permalink)
NeckHumbucker
Any serious software company would take a data corruption problem very seriously, but that doesn't seem to be the case with Sonar. Look-and-feel is more important apparently.

 
There have been hundreds of fixes and optimizations in the transition from X3 to SONAR 2015 and during the past year, which gives a clear indication of Cakewalk's priorities post-X3/post-acquisition. If you truly believe that AudioSnap corrupted your data, then send the project to Cakewalk for analysis. If you don't clean up editing functions after editing has occurred, the expected result is that eventually the data will become too large to handle. Similarly, every time you bounce a track, a new file is created and that swells your audio folder. However, you could not do deep undos or have an edit history without that data. 
 
If what you're saying is there's no way to strip AudioSnap data after doing AudioSnap operations, I have not found that to be the case but then again, I'm using Platinum so things might have been different in X3.
 
Whenever you select Audio Transients in edit filter, audio gets analyzed for AS automatically, and even after you turn off AS at clip level, and change edit filter back to Clip, that AS info stays in the file, and then gets corrupt.

 
I believe that changing Edit Filter back to clip does not delete the AudioSnap data by design. To remove AudioSnap, Acidization transient markers, Melodyne metadata, and the like, you need to bounce the clip to itself. If bouncing a clip to itself does not eliminate the metadata, that would indeed be a bug and Cakewalk should investigate it.
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#16
Anderton
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2015/12/30 22:14:21 (permalink)
Hmmm...I just tried an experiment with Platinum. Opened a song, changed all clips to Transients, then opened up AudioSnap for the various tracks and re-quantized them so AudioSnap would have to do some "work." Then, I re-saved as a new .cwp file and the file size was the same. Not sure why. I do know there were changes to AudioSnap between X3 and SONAR 2015. I think someone from Cakewalk, or a user who knows more about this than I do, will need to weigh in.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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celestialharp
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Re: Sonar X3 files suddenly get too large 2016/06/02 15:36:25 (permalink)
I have a similar problem ...i do some edits, and then later i delete several tracks making the song smaller, but the newly saved file is much larger than the original and sonar starts working very slowly and sometimes hangs for five or more minutes. How do you remove the edit history? because I think this would allow the file size to get smaller?
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