chris.r
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Sonar alternatives more in-depth
Hi guys... to people who already jumped on different DAW, here's feature set of Sonar that makes my workflow. My question is, if you care enough to dig into details, what other DAWs support those features? Please answer only if you're sure you know your new DAW and their feature equivalents good enough. Also you can specify any alternatives if it makes sense, because I understand that it's not possible to carry exactly same feature set 1 by 1 from one DAW to another :) So, here we go:
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unlimited I/O, audio/MIDI tracks, busses and VSTs
opening 32bit VST in 64bit Sonar - essential feature for me
resonably good VST handling - I have read that even Steinberg's (who invented VST right?) Cubase is having issues with many VSTs (and no 32bit VST in 64bit host at all AFAIK) whereas Sonar seem to work fine with most I've tried so far
ability to switch off automatic VST scan during starup - very useful
plugin load balancing - that one is Sonar specific I believe... and it's awesome
Skylight interface - great docking/floating options, on/off switching and expand/collapse of different views with press of one key
dynamic control bar - efficiency vs economy
smart tool - ease of use... excellent feature
track templates, screensets
track folders
convenient interleave (mono/stereo), phase switch and input echo on/off switch on every track
quick group and smart swipe - editing across multiple tracks with one click... maybe not essential but very proficient
combined midi/audio tracks (make instrument track)
expandable fx & sends (in Inspector/Console view) - again not essential, but... ;)
patch points, aux tracks
mix recall - sooo useful
dim/exclusive solo - workflow! nearly essential
Snap To/Snap By switch - essential for me... does any other DAW have something like that?
copy entire clips as linked clips (siblings) - you can edit just one MIDI clip and the rest gets the same edits automatically
MIDI events chase on play
X-Ray feature
video handling
non-destructive audio & MIDI editing
Ripple editing
take lanes & speed comping - both highly essential
clips auto-crossfade
bounce to clip(s) - essential
audiosnap - transient-based audio editing... essential for me
Melodyne - ARA support, got it bundled with Sonar - great! How about other DAWs...?
drumreplacer - a great feature, and got it bundled with my DAW, no need to buy anything 3rd party! essential I think
vocalsync - bundled... again! essential (not going to pay for VocAlign alone same price as I paid for SPlat with lifetime upgrade)
clip FX rack (clip based fx) - nearly essential for me
clip/track: apply effects (process in-place) - very useful if not essential
freeze/unfreeze track - essential!
groove-clip looping functionality - essential I think
matrix view, step sequencer
sfz/rxp file handling
radius algo for pitch/strech audio - I find it of excellent quality!
export selection to audio - select clips/tracks and time region and export (bounce) to audio file
MIDI view/editing directly in Clip pane
step recording (MIDI)
quantize + swing ability - a must
groove quantize - awesome feature, especially when combined with audiosnap transient pool
Length/velocity scale - a must (in Sonar you have a command in menu but also you can drag clips/selected events with mouse)
find/change (interpolate), select by filter - both are very essential features for me
event list, markers and tempo editing
MIDI effects (mfx)
save as MIDI format 0 and 1
SysEx
CAL - I find it lifesaving sometimes! I know there's no alternative for that in the world... or is it?
ProChannel - Sonar exclusive, I know, but are there any good alternatives?
QuadCurve EQ - love this one not only for it's sound... in other DAW bundled EQ must have the spectrum analyzer
Tape Emulator
Tupe Saturation - it's great! and I got it bundled... ha!
FX Chains
Sonitus suite
Blue Tubes suite
L-Phase plugins/Adaptive limiter
AD2/Session Drummer 3 - a quality drum engine bundled with DAW
Cakewalk TTS-1 - quick lightweight GM module
Lounge Lizard - valuable rhodes piano bundled
Truepianos - valuable piano
Breverb Sonar - algo reverb of excellent quality bundled
Rematrix Solo - valuable convolution reverb (love this one)
z3ta+/Dimension Pro/Rapture - some (very) good synths
Tone2 Bifilter - a vintage filter!
=====================================
I'm pretty sure I still forgot about something, and I don't even try to mention every single feature here. There are many more like touch enable, lenses, surround mixing, theme editor, style dials or TH3, that other people may find necessary. The above are just those most important, lack of any of them, especially the essential ones, could break the workflow for me.
So thanks for your support and any reply highly appreciated. Cheers!
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djwayne
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 03:07:31
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☄ Helpfulby anydmusic 2017/12/28 10:34:29
too much baggage...just get Studio One and a Faderport 8.
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SimpleManZ
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 04:16:31
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☄ Helpfulby anydmusic 2017/12/28 10:34:48
Gosh, I am trying Samplitude because of the $149 deal. It does many of the important stuff a DAW user needs.
To me what is most important, is not what Sonar does but what it cannot do.
And cannot do is the future.
If product development and coding adjustment is ceased altogether, then as time moves on Sonar will become a hassle to produce with. Say for instance Native Instruments releases new stuff. You find out it crashes in Sonar but nobody is there to fix it.
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Keni
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 05:11:38
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Thanks for the nice list.
A reminder of why I continue to use Sonar and have not just moped ship.
I will if/when the time ever comes, and hope that at least one of the others finally covers all bases for me.
Funny, but that is what first brought me to Cakewalk to begin with.
I was using Roger Powell's Texture program and enjoying it, but two things happened. Texture never completed a windows version (DOS only) and work I was doing at the time required me to move to windows... and then Texture closed down... so I got a then new copy of Cakewalk for Windows.
I've been here ever since!
Though for many this change is easier than for others. I've been a recording engineer from well before digital or even computer based midi sequencing. The tape years. I've watched numerous companies come and go. It happens. Not always because of bad products or company operation. Sometimes things fall the wrong way.
I'm very sad at this happening, but I know for the forseeable future, Sonar does everything I need to create music for myself and my clients. I'm frozen on a machine with windows 8.1 that cannot upgrade to 10...
For me, this is a better solution.
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 05:28:06
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I have purchased Studio One. Downloaded the demo to start with, but have since bought it. First half hour I thought it was going to be a disaster - really couldn't figure out what I as doing and how to do things, but once I opened my mind a bit more from the "but Sonar does it this way" view, I'm loving it. Everything works well, I find a view features really useful, and it seems easier to navigate. All the cakewalk plugins and instruments except TruePianos have come across no problem (TruePianos shows up, but says it is Cakewalk locked. Fortunately you can just hide it in the list). It's cheap with a special crossgrade for Sonar users at the moment until the end of the month. It includes Melodyne Essential, 32 and 64 bit VSTs work, including VST2s. Not one crash so far with any plugins or anything I am doing. I was even able to map four identical midi drumsticks and have them all work at once which Sonar couldn't handle because it got confused by the four names being the same. Sad to see Sonar go, been with it since it was midi only cakewalk, then through HomeStudio 2002, and then onto various versions of Sonar, but to be honest, I am really enjoying Studio One and very happy. Looking at your list, I'm not going to reply to every item, and I can't vouch for everything perhaps, but there isn't much in it that I think StudioOne can't handle (except floating windows perhaps, but I prefer their approach now anyway). No, the smart selection tool isn't as good as Sonar. And I haven't figured out the autofade yet, but you can select a clip that overlaps another and simply select create crossfades to get yourself going quickly...
Of course, you may not find things the same as I did, but, give it a go, and promise to spend a couple of hours with an open mind, testing things you need like midi fx, groove quantizing, bouncing, crossfades, comping etc, and you may be surprised...
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chris.r
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 07:37:42
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When working on MIDI recorded performance, say it's a quick job for a client, sometimes what I need is to find (select) all CC#25 with values 0-127 on the track and change them to CC#50 with values 10-80. In sonar I can do it in just 2 steps using the interpolate (find/change) proces... 60sec and job done! Can I do something like this in Studio One? What other DAW would allow me to make such edit?
I'm trying to find another DAW that supports the most of my essential needs. Please bear with me ;)
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 08:41:05
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Can be done in Studio One as well. CC data appears in the automation lanes. Each CC data will have its own lane. What you do is select the transform tool and then you do operations on that CC data. Like compressing down to values or ranges. Moving it all up or down etc. Making it all one value etc.. Its more of a visual thing in Studio One. There is a scale to the left and the lane can be expanded to various heights as well for more detail. In fact the transform tool is seriously powerful and can do all manner of things that Sonar can not even approach by just entering values. Because of the visual nature of what you are doing. Hard to explain until you see it in action. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNrgME9POY It applies to all data. Note information and all CC values too. You can view any number of CC lanes at once or individually. People's perception of Studio One's lesser midi capabilities is often misguided.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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aum_yapak
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 08:43:24
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cubase have everything for deep for midi and Score Studio one good for audio edit and mixing I think Studio one just like Cubase but midi can't compare Cubase
yes I use and have both I like Sonar some feature I have Sonar Platinum Steam version but now I learn Samplitud Pro X for midi edit it good for me sorry my english.
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sonarman1
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 09:32:17
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cubase have everything for deep for midi and Score Studio one good for audio edit and mixing I think Studio one just like Cubase but midi can't compare Cubase
Could you please explain. I see a hell lot of people say this but what exactly is S1 lacking in midi. Other than few extra features like chord track, chord assistant, note expression(which most daws dont have and can be easily lived without) Also S1 doesn't have event editor and cubase seems to handle external midi instruments better. Other than these i find everything in s1 perfectly crafted, as far as all midi editing and core midi functions I find the workflow of S1 better than Cubase. If there is more midi features in cubase I am not aware of please enlighten me.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 09:49:21
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I have got a pretty powerful external instrument setup. Apart from instrument definitions, Studio One handles all the external hardware beautifully. I am not into instrument definitions anyway so I don't miss them. Studio One can send program changes and bank changes etc anyway. I tend to be changing the memories of my hardware instruments all the time. (as one really should) I don't just send a program change to a synth and expect the sound. I either create the patch or edit or dump user sounds in there. Or find a factory sound (maybe tweak it) and just leave it there and sequence it from Studio One. All my synths will even remember the sound and the edit after turning off and back on again. I transfer to audio when the midi parts are complete anyway.
There is a third party app that can be added into Studio One that I think features an event list as well. (not endorsed outright by Presonus but it works and is totally stable) To be honest I have survived without it. People seem to think that you cannot unless it is there but in realty I would much rather be shifting things around visually than entering numbers. (takes me back to Dr T's!!)
Cubase and Logic are still deeper midi wise for sure but Studio One is still quite deep midi wise. Check out the video I linked above. (Transform Tool) Can Sonar do that stuff. Somehow I doubt it.
If there were major problems with external hardware believe me I would know about it.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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anydmusic
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 10:33:54
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chris.r
Hi guys... to people who already jumped on different DAW, here's feature set of Sonar that makes my workflow. My question is, if you care enough to dig into details, what other DAWs support those features? Please answer only if you're sure you know your new DAW and their feature equivalents good enough. Also you can specify any alternatives if it makes sense, because I understand that it's not possible to carry exactly same feature set 1 by 1 from one DAW to another :) So, here we go:
...
So thanks for your support and any reply highly appreciated. Cheers!
Reads like a feature set for Sonar, if that's what you need then maybe you need to stick with Sonar :-) Anyone who has compared software will know that when you list features most products look unique so comparing tasks is the way to go. ARA support is a good example, the task is "fixing vocals" so you don't need ARA although if you prefer Melodyne it does help with the workflow. If your looking for an alternative which has the same functions as Sonar with the same names for easy comparison I don't think that you'll find what you are looking for. If you want something that will allow you to continue recording and perform the tasks that matter to you then there is a good chance that one of the products being discussed will be a reasonable fit.
Graham Windows 10 64 bit - Intel i7-4790, 16GB, 2 x 256GB SSD Cubase 9.5 Sonar Platinum (Rapture Pro, Z3TA 2, CA2A, plus some other bits) Delta 24/96, UAD 1, UA25 EX, 2 x MidiSport, IKMultiMedia - (SampleTank 3, Miroslav 2, Syntronik, TRacks 5, Modo Bass), Band In A Box, Sound Quest, VS Pro, Kinetic, Acid, Sound Forge, Jammer Waves MaxxVolume, IR 1, Aphex Enhancer, Abbey Plates Korg Legacy, VStation, Bass Station
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whitealbum
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 10:57:27
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Chris.r!
So, i made a big list with all answers to all your questions for Sonar/Cubase 9.5 Pro.
But, it is not possible to save this here (don't know why!)
If you are interested, please send me PM with your email adress.
Cubase Pro 9.5 64 Bit | CBB | Samplitude ProX3 | Win7 64 | Gigabyte X99 UD7 WiFi | I7 5820K | RME ADI-2 via spdif RME Fireface UC | 32 GB RAM
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anydmusic
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 11:24:09
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whitealbum
Chris.r!
So, i made a big list with all answers to all your questions for Sonar/Cubase 9.5 Pro.
But, it is not possible to save this here (don't know why!)
If you are interested, please send me PM with your email adress.
That's a shame as I'm sure many would find it useful.
Graham Windows 10 64 bit - Intel i7-4790, 16GB, 2 x 256GB SSD Cubase 9.5 Sonar Platinum (Rapture Pro, Z3TA 2, CA2A, plus some other bits) Delta 24/96, UAD 1, UA25 EX, 2 x MidiSport, IKMultiMedia - (SampleTank 3, Miroslav 2, Syntronik, TRacks 5, Modo Bass), Band In A Box, Sound Quest, VS Pro, Kinetic, Acid, Sound Forge, Jammer Waves MaxxVolume, IR 1, Aphex Enhancer, Abbey Plates Korg Legacy, VStation, Bass Station
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tenfoot
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 11:28:45
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Jeff Evans
Can be done in Studio One as well. CC data appears in the automation lanes. Each CC data will have its own lane. What you do is select the transform tool and then you do operations on that CC data. Like compressing down to values or ranges. Moving it all up or down etc. Making it all one value etc.. Its more of a visual thing in Studio One.
People's perception of Studio One's lesser midi capabilities is often misguided.
Whilst it is true that this is possible, it is extraordinarily convoluted compared to Sonar or Cubase (which has an excellent logical editor for midi). Although I have found a way to do most basic midi changes I need in S1, the 'visual adjustment' of all midi cc's is terribly fiddly. I am a fan of Studio One, however the idea that the midi is not as advanced as Sonar is far from misguided. It really is pretty basic. I am hoping this is an area Presonus choose to improve soon as it certainly is the achilles heel of Studio One. If midi is your main thing and you do lots of complex single edits, Studio one, despite its many strengths, is probably not the best choice for you. On the other hand, if you dont do much other than straightforward midi recording and basic editing, it does the job just fine.
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 12:12:07
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tenfoot
if you don't do much other than straightforward midi recording and basic editing, it does the job just fine. How long have you been working with Studio One and how much midi editing have you actually done. The above statement sounds like it may not be that long or you don't really know the full extent its midi capabilities yet. The midi editing is not super advanced but it is far from basic as well. Also working with something like the Transform Tool is not convoluted either. Entering a whole lot of numbers and not actually seeing what it may look like is convoluted. Different point of view. I do a lot of work in both audio and midi and have got along rather fine in both areas. Not found any major areas lacking. Agreed it needs some more midi stuff for sure. It's only 6 years old remember. It's an actually pretty decent overall DAW for such a young age. The next major update (V4) might change a few minds. There are few things that people don't know as well. With external hardware in Studio One midi timing is totally independent of the audio side of the program and how hard the audio side is working. Sonar was poor in this regard. Midi timing gets worse as the audio is working harder in Sonar. It always felt to me that the midi timing clock was related to the audio clock. In this regard S1 is way ahead. If you are really great player and can play really nicely in time to the click (or not, still without quantising that is e.g. very subtle timing) that playing is very well captured and played back. It's actually exceptional in this regard. There are a few big names that use it for this reason alone. Not everything is quantised. Also you can still jump tracks (e.g. different hardware synths on each track that is) while looping and recording without a hitch e.g. total gapless performance. New material just gets added in on the track you land on. Sonar cannot do this. This works with virtual instruments too if you have got the power to run several of them at once at super low latencies. (16 sample buffer settings now available) These are actually major midi considerations compared to perhaps minor editing features that may be lacking or often not needed. For me this is the real stuff that is super important. With a thunderbolt interface (on Mac) running latencies to well under 2mS, the same level of performance timing is also apparent in virtual instruments too. The actual timing resolution of midi data is super high in Studio One. Once again, important stuff.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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djwayne
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 12:29:09
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azslow3
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 12:50:20
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☄ Helpfulby tenfoot 2017/12/28 14:40:52
I am not an expert, but there is a list and so I will go throw it. For REAPER. I put my comments directly into quotas, for readability. I start from the features which have better implementation in REAPER, compare to Sonar:
track folders
combined midi/audio tracks (make instrument track)
patch points, aux tracks
In Reaper, a track is everything: audio, midi, video, aux, bus, folder, VCA. By default, folder is also a bus, but that can be decoupled. Folders support sub-folders (any depth). Tracks can be but into multiple groups, as master/slave/VCA for arbitrary set of parameters. MIDI/Audio routing is homogeneous (unlike in Sonar, MIDI also can be routed as "Send"). Routing Matrix gives one picture overview of the whole routing, with "swipe" gestures. There is "IN-FX" bin, so plug-ins (MIDI and Audio) can be applied before recording (especially useful for MIDI manipulations). Sub-project is an item which can be used as usual media file (automatically kept in sync).
MIDI effects (mfx)
CAL
EEL2/Lua/Python/C++. For MIDI, audio and the DAW behavior. Build-in editor for scripts. Scripts can work as "one time processor" (CAL direction) or as FX processors (MFX direction). Big set of (M)FX scripts is bundled. Huge set is in SWS extension (almost standard to have in Reaper). And most users publish there own... That is the list of features with similar implementation
unlimited I/O, audio/MIDI tracks, busses and VSTs
opening 32bit VST in 64bit
resonably good VST handling
ability to switch off automatic VST scan during starup - It seems like there is some VST scanning at startup, but it is quick. I mean when Sonar does something longer when its auto-scanning is on.
plugin load balancing - Not tweaked CPU handling in Reaper is efficient. May be under condition when Sonar plug-in load balancing as such make sense (note that is very specific case, as mentioned in Sonar docs) Reaper can saturate some core, but I have no such conditions. So for me (and some other users) ASIO buffer size can be kept low longer then in Sonar.
dynamic control bar - multiple arbitrary configurable tool bars
track templates, screensets
convenient interleave (mono/stereo), phase switch and input echo on/off switch on every track - Reaper has a bit different approach for echo on/off, for some use cases it is better for other worse.
quick group and smart swipe - multiple independent persistent groups and quick group for tracks and items
expandable fx & sends (in Inspector/Console view) - no build-in inspector... but Console view can show as many fxes and sends as the screen allows.
dim/exclusive solo - called "Solo in front"
copy entire clips as linked clips (siblings) - called "MIDI pooling"
MIDI events chase on play
video handling - I have not tried, but it is there
non-destructive audio & MIDI editing
Ripple editing
take lanes & speed comping
clips auto-crossfade
bounce to clip(s) - called "Glue"
audiosnap - transient-based audio editing. A bit different, but there.
clip FX rack (clip based fx)
clip/track: apply effects (process in-place)
freeze/unfreeze track
groove-clip looping functionality
rxp file handling - convert or slice, no build-in direct handling (in Sonar there is only convert).
export selection to audio - select clips/tracks and time region and export (bounce) to audio file
MIDI view/editing directly in Clip pane
step recording (MIDI)
quantize + swing ability
Length/velocity scale
event list, markers and tempo editing
Not yet, but almost there
Melodyne - ARA support. Reaper is waiting for ARA2 which is coming soon (short video of it in Reaper already exists)
Different (better or worse is subjective)
Skylight interface - Many newcomers do not like Reper interface. But there are many themes and they can include much more tweaks then in Sonar themes, I mean not only images and colors can be changed but also the structure.
smart tool - Reaper has configurable mouse behavior, but not all Sonar smart tool gestures can be done
mix recall - there is SWS Snapshot extension. I have not sufficiently used mix recall / this extension to compare.
Snap To/Snap By switch - I have not found snap by. But setting snap offset is a bit easier then in Sonar, so I compensate with it (and I have found that less error prone).
radius algo for pitch/strech audio - as many other DAWs, Reaper use elastique. You can find many comparisons, some say izotope is better.
step sequencer - no buil-in. There are some bundled plug-ins (MIDI sequencer), seems like can do some sequencing.
find/change (interpolate), select by filter - find change can be done by plug-ins(scripts), so not destructive. "Select" is a part of Filter in the MIDI editor.
FX Chains - FX chains can be saved, but they are "flattened" when inserted into the bin.
I do not know / not found yet
X-Ray feature
groove quantize
save as MIDI format 0 and 1 - Reaper can definitively save MIDI files, but I have not tested how
SysEx
Not there
matrix view - there is PlayTime. Not free, looks a big ugly and behave quite ugly, but support usual for matrixes controllers.
Not and will not be there (and not in any other DAW)
drumreplacer
vocalsync
ProChannel
QuadCurve EQ - (Reaper has bundled EQ with spectrum analyzer)
Tape Emulator
Tupe Saturation
Blue Tubes suite (CW version works in Sonar only)
Adaptive limiter (locked to Sonar)
Truepianos (CW version works in Sonar only)
The following works in any DAW. Till DX in DAWs without native support, but there is DX->VST plug-in. Reaper support DX plug-ins natively.
sfz file handling - that is for synth, not DAWs. Corresponding CW synthes are not locked.
Sonitus suite - Compressor and Gate without side chaining
L-Phase plugins
AD2/Session Drummer 3
Cakewalk TTS-1 - DX
Lounge Lizard - AAS offer unlock codes
z3ta+/Dimension Pro/Rapture
Tone2 Bifilter
Breverb Sonar, Rematrix Solo and TH3 Sonar - Overloud offer unlock codes
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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whitealbum
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 13:12:53
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Just tried it again, its not possible to save my anwers regarding Cubase 9.5 Pro for chris :(
Cubase Pro 9.5 64 Bit | CBB | Samplitude ProX3 | Win7 64 | Gigabyte X99 UD7 WiFi | I7 5820K | RME ADI-2 via spdif RME Fireface UC | 32 GB RAM
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fitzj
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 13:36:02
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You don't need all these features to make music. You end up spending more time learning how to use than making music.
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cool
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 14:00:54
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vocalsync in Reaper - Lua: Align takes script
step sequencer in Reaper - js plugin Megababy
English is not my native language. Apologize for any mistakes in the text.
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azslow3
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 14:07:42
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☄ Helpfulby tenfoot 2017/12/28 14:40:12
fitzj
You don't need all these features to make music. You end up spending more time learning how to use than making music.
Computer and software are not essential to PLAY music. But to MAKE music in a DAW, some features are essential 
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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tenfoot
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 14:23:32
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Jeff Evans
tenfoot
if you don't do much other than straightforward midi recording and basic editing, it does the job just fine.
How long have you been working with Studio One and how much midi editing have you actually done. The above statement sounds like it may not be that long or you don't really know the full extent its midi capabilities yet. The midi editing is not super advanced but it is far from basic as well. Also working with something like the Transform Tool is not convoluted either. Entering a whole lot of numbers and not actually seeing what it may look like is convoluted. Different point of view.
I do a lot of work in both audio and midi and have got along rather fine in both areas. Not found any major areas lacking. Agreed it needs some more midi stuff for sure. It's only 6 years old remember. It's an actually pretty decent overall DAW for such a young age.
The next major update (V4) might change a few minds.
There are few things that people don't know as well. With external hardware in Studio One midi timing is totally independent of the audio side of the program and how hard the audio side is working. Sonar was poor in this regard. Midi timing gets worse as the audio is working harder in Sonar. It always felt to me that the midi timing clock was related to the audio clock. In this regard S1 is way ahead. If you are really great player and can play really nicely in time to the click (or not, still without quantising that is e.g. very subtle timing) that playing is very well captured and played back. It's actually exceptional in this regard. There are a few big names that use it for this reason alone. Not everything is quantised.
Also you can still jump tracks (e.g. different hardware synths on each track that is) while looping and recording without a hitch e.g. total gapless performance. New material just gets added in on the track you land on. Sonar cannot do this. This works with virtual instruments too if you have got the power to run several of them at once at super low latencies. (16 sample buffer settings now available)
These are actually major midi considerations compared to perhaps minor editing features that may be lacking or often not needed. For me this is the real stuff that is super important.
With a thunderbolt interface (on Mac) running latencies to well under 2mS, the same level of performance timing is also apparent in virtual instruments too. The actual timing resolution of midi data is super high in Studio One. Once again, important stuff.
I have been working with midi professionally since 1986 Jeff, so I've done the odd hour or two and pretty much have my head around it:) It may be worth considering that others may have more complex midi requirements than you do before declaring their lack of knowledge because S1 isn't quite delivering what they need. Are you a teacher by any chance? Perhaps there is hidden functionality in Studio One that I am yet to find, but I have worked my way through the entire manual, so unless it is undocumented (which of course is entirely possible in this day and age!) I dont hold much hope of that. No argument at all as to the quality of Studio One given its youth, though I believe development started in 2006, so it is a little older than 6. It's impressive youth/feature set balance is the reason I moved to it following the demise of Sonar. If you have a complex external midi setup as you say, you will already be familiar with its limitations as far as instrument definitions/custom patch and controller names etc. I use midi to control multiple digital mixers and DMX controllers, which becomes a bit of a nightmare in S13. It is also not possible to set up complex routing to virtual midi outputs in order to create universal setups that will recognise correct midi assignments irrespective of hardware further down the line. Not something your average user requires, but a huge time saver for many professionls who run multiple systems. In Studio one, it seems midi assisgments work on the system they were made on and no other, irrespective of identical virtual device setups under external device options on all systems. If you have a workaround for this, I would certainly love to hear it! Its major shortfall in my opinion for custom midi editing is the absence of a midi event list (and it's filters), and something like either the logical editor in Cubase or the underated and somewhat neglected CAL functionality in Sonar. Fingers crossed this may be on the v4 radar. No argument with the solidity of midi timing and audio engine in general. Pretty much the best I've seen (though Ableton Live is also pretty impressive in this regard, and midi timing was never better than using a midiquest paralell port interface under DOS way back in Cakelive! Unfortunately, that is all it did, then the changes to midi timing drivers in win 3.1 broke even that). Cubase, well, not so much:) So we are in agreement that S13 is indeed excellent. It is just our definitions of complex and simple midi functionality that vary. As much as I am enjoying it, I couldnt really give as full throated endorsement to Studio Ones current midi editing options as you do, though I am sure it will continue to improve as you say. I truly hope you can say 'I told you so' when V4 is released, and I will happily eat my humble pie then:)
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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tenfoot
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 14:39:36
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djwayne
You don't need all that junk...here's what I did within 4 days of getting Studio One, I got the faderport yesterday.....
https://soundcloud.com/djwayne2000/everybody-loves-somebody-sometime
just get busy making music....
I suspect the OP uses all of those things to create their music, or they would not have asked. If someone wanted to write a symphony you wouldn't tell them to forget all that junk and hand them a Banjo. Horses for courses and all that:)
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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aum_yapak
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 15:57:09
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Hello, I'm sorry to irritate. I do not want to cause a war. Between the software
I just offered to follow the experience during use. Those software To guide
I did not intend to move over Studio One badly. I've been using Version 1 -3.5 and still use it.
But over the past 2 years I've been using Sonar Platinum more because I like to learn. I was shocked.
Sonar Platinum is out of development, so I hope it will be for those who want to switch to other software.
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chris.r
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 16:47:07
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Jeff Evans
Can be done in Studio One as well. CC data appears in the automation lanes. Each CC data will have its own lane. What you do is select the transform tool and then you do operations on that CC data. Like compressing down to values or ranges. Moving it all up or down etc. Making it all one value etc.. Its more of a visual thing in Studio One.
There is a scale to the left and the lane can be expanded to various heights as well for more detail. In fact the transform tool is seriously powerful and can do all manner of things that Sonar can not even approach by just entering values. Because of the visual nature of what you are doing. Hard to explain until you see it in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNrgME9POY
It applies to all data. Note information and all CC values too. You can view any number of CC lanes at once or individually. People's perception of Studio One's lesser midi capabilities is often misguided.
Thanks Jeff. You know we have it already in Sonar? Besides it wouldn't allow me to swap one CC# series to another... or would it? anydmusic
whitealbum
Chris.r!
So, i made a big list with all answers to all your questions for Sonar/Cubase 9.5 Pro.
But, it is not possible to save this here (don't know why!)
If you are interested, please send me PM with your email adress.
That's a shame as I'm sure many would find it useful.
Hi whitealbum, I'll drop you PM with my email and try to put it here for the public if it's ok. djwayne
You don't need all that junk...here's what I did within 4 days of getting Studio One, I got the faderport yesterday.....
https://soundcloud.com/djwayne2000/everybody-loves-somebody-sometime
just get busy making music....
Thanks for your help djwayne. I agree with you regarding making some music. The reason I created this thread is not about it though, it's about accomplish a task, possibly in a quickest way, when I get an order from my client ;)
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chris.r
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 17:25:40
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azslow3
I am not an expert, but there is a list and so I will go throw it. For REAPER.
I put my comments directly into quotas, for readability.
I start from the features which have better implementation in REAPER(...)
MIDI effects (mfx)
CAL
EEL2/Lua/Python/C++. For MIDI, audio and the DAW behavior. Build-in editor for scripts.
Scripts can work as "one time processor" (CAL direction) or as FX processors (MFX direction).
Big set of (M)FX scripts is bundled. Huge set is in SWS extension (almost standard to have in Reaper). And most users publish there own...
Different (better or worse is subjective)
Snap To/Snap By switch - I have not found snap by. But setting snap offset is a bit easier then in Sonar, so I compensate with it (and I have found that less error prone).
Thanks azslow3! This is a kind of amazing response I'd like to see here more also for other DAWs. Keep'em coming! Looks like (M)FX and CAL involves some script programming knowledge in Reaper. I don't know any script language, when I need to use CAL, I simply use scripts already made by others and tweat them eventually. Using mfx plugins is even more simple, does Reaper use mfx plugins? And could you elaborate a little more on Snap offset in Reaper? Appreciated.
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azslow3
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 18:13:54
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chris.r
Looks like (M)FX and CAL involves some script programming knowledge in Reaper. I don't know any script language, when I need to use CAL, I simply use scripts already made by others and tweat them eventually. Using mfx plugins is even more simple, does Reaper use mfx plugins?
CAL is the language of scripting supported in Sonar. There is no CAL in Reaper. But there are scripts in other languages (EEL2, Lua and Python). There is no dedicated MFX in Reaper, unlike Sonar, it support accepted since long time by most DAWs MIDI processing within VST and using scripts written in mentioned languages. Reaper has active knowledgeable script writers, so you do not have to write your own script in case you do not want / do not know how to do this.
And could you elaborate a little more on Snap offset in Reaper?
Sonar (for audio clips) and Reaper (for any item) have "Snap offset". When set, moving clips in "Snap to" mode will snap not the beginning of the clip, but specified point in the clip. So once you have defined such points, it is possible to use "Snap to" keeping the offset. In Sonar, you can set the offset by positioning "Now time" and selecting "Set Snap offset to Now time" in the clip context menu. In Reaper, you can drag left lower corner of the item. If snap is on, it swill snap during that movement.
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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Jeff Evans
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 19:35:21
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Thanks tenfoot for your response. Yes instrument definitions come up quite often. For me personally I don't use them or care for them. I personally find using the same sounds in the same locations as boring and not very smart. (the great Edgar Froese from Tangerine Dream also said the same.) In all my hardware synths I rarely use the same sounds anyway. I have got many thousands of sounds for synths like the Roland JD800, not just the standard 64 that are in there. So its best to audition them in my opinion and find the sounds one is after. Or edit them, or better still make new sounds for every project that you do. Even just finding a factory preset, maybe doing an edit on it and just using it as is. Most synths in fact will retain the sound and edit even after switch off and back on again the next day. Instrument definitions cannot cope with that.
Studio One can still send bank and program changes if you want to do sound switching in the middle of the music. Or though these days it is not so required. One should also be converting midi to audio anyway at some point too.
I also have a Yamaha digital mixer and there is a mode where it transmits midi data as the surface controls are moved. Studio One does still records this data and it can be edited etc and it plays it back too into the mixer again hence it follows that data. I don't do it that often actually but I did test it and it all works. So from that point of view that can be done too.
Please don't believe the manual! The manual is poorly written and many features are not documented at all. The manual is not a good indicator of what Studio One can do. They don't seem to be too worried about keeping it fully up to date either. A much better option are the training videos that either third party people like Groove 3 or Presonus themselves do and also Studio One Expert offer. That is another thing too. Not many DAW's have such a detailed and in depth 3rd party site such as Studio One Expert. The Groove 3 video on Recording and Editing Midi will really open your eyes.
I agree there are some things that need to be improved such as SYSEX handling too. The event list is handy but somehow I have lived without it for a long time. I just prefer editing visually in the PRV view much more. Maybe that is the reason they have left it out. There is a third party app that someone has developed that not only includes the event list but adds a ton of extra midi features. It is easily installed. I believe it is very stable and reliable too.
Ableton has got a great midi engine I agree too. Jean Michelle Jarre uses Ableton and he must do it for a reason and I suspect it has something to do with the timing solidity. Hardware sequencers from the past are hard to beat in areas like that. The basic engine of StudioOne is as you say very very good.
I run a Steinberg Midex 8 midi interface with 8 ports. Each synth is on its own port for me. I also run the USB connection to that form a separate PCI card in my computer as well. It is totally on its own there. That might explain why midi timing is so fast and solid for me.
You may be able to convert one CC data lane to another. It might be possible to create a new lane with a new CC value and cut and paste the data from one CC lane to another. Have not tried that one yet.
Tha Macro abilities of Studio One are also way better than the CAL scripts in Sonar. They are way too hard in my opinion. Creating macros in Studio One is a breeze. That is a really powerful feature of Studio One. There are tons of them already done as well you can freely download from the Presonus exchange. Another thing that is rather unique to Studio One.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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batsbrew
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 21:05:36
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☄ Helpfulby mkerl 2017/12/29 04:28:08
these threads........
LOL
i read more about the stuff a daw can do, that the user cannot figure out how to do (despite a million sources)....
than what they really cannot do.
maybe i'm out of the loop here....
i use a daw............. any daw.....
as a glorified tape machine.
the only thing i currently 'trigger' with midi data, is superior drummer, and my keys.
and usually, i can find really good sounding keyboard sounds using standard plugins...
so, i don't know,
sounds like a lot of folks have made it so hard on themselves to simply record 'music', that they've gone round the bend.
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azslow3
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Re: Sonar alternatives more in-depth
2017/12/28 21:16:58
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Jeff Evans
Tha Macro abilities of Studio One are also way better than the CAL scripts in Sonar. They are way too hard in my opinion. Creating macros in Studio One is a breeze. That is a really powerful feature of Studio One. There are tons of them already done as well you can freely download from the Presonus exchange. Another thing that is rather unique to Studio One.
Can you add any reference to that? From what I can google, Macros in Studio One have 2 meanings, one is surface like control panel and another is a sequence of commands to execute. I mean both have almost nothing to do with CAL (CAL is a scripting language with partial access to DAW internals, f.e. MIDI events, so not a sequence of Sonar commands).
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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