Rain

gothic.angel
 
things like "OSX is actually significantly better at handling audio and midi" are old wearisome LEGENDS...
 

Incorrect.
 
One exemple - I actually get better performance and latency from my audio interface using Apple's own default Core Audio drivers than with the manufacturer's drivers. Tested and verified time and time again, with my old M-Audio and my current Focusrite interface.
 
Heck, my old Fast Track can no longer be used with recent version of OSX - unless I wipe AVID/M-Audio's drivers and let OSX take care of handling it... 
 
Another exemple: Apple have allowed for low-latency audio on their phones and tablets for years. Alternatives are just catching up - see IK Multimedia's recent announcement.
 
The fact is that Apple has always placed a very strong focus on audio and video - and it's a fact, regardless of whether one likes Apple or not. They're selling systems with audio applications on them such as Garage Band which have to work out of the box. And they do.
 
They have their own DAW, Logic, which is a top notch audio application, with an all-star line of synths and processors. They have MainStage, which is one of the most widely used host application on stages around the world. And they've just acquired Camel Audio. Clearly, Apple loves multimedia, and they're selling you an experience.
 
That's where the difference lies - you buy a computer from them, and you're ready to go*. No need to download drivers and install tons of 3rd party tools - everything is integrated. Now, you don't have to like that, and some people prefer custom, and that's alright. But you can't disregard facts.
 
Last Mac I bought, it took me something like 2 or 3 hours, from the moment I walked in the store to the time I was home, launching my DAW with all its 40GB of content installed. Never had to worry about such things as optimization - unless running Pro Tools which is not the greatest in terms of performance.
 
* On the other hand, as Mr. Anderton pointed out, the latest incarnations of OSX certainly have lost their simplicity for us audio and video guys. It used to be that you'd pick up a Mac off the shelf, install your DAW software and be good to go. 
 
With Yosemite, and to a lesser extent most OSX revisions since Lion, that's no longer true. If I could buy a few dozen pre-Yosemite computers for the future, I'd do so. 
 
None of this, obviously, takes anything away from Sonar on a PC. It's a different mean to an end, period.
 

Estoy totalmente deacuerdo con tu respuesta, si un equipo en mac esta configurado para funcionar bien, ya no te tienes que preocupar en configuraciones, en Windows si te montas un pc a tu decisión, y verificado por windows, esto en este escenario no se cumple en windows....
Lo unico que uno aficionado quiere es pasarlo bien, encender el sistema y crear musica de todos los colores, sin mas preocupaciones. 

Anderton
I ran Mac only from 1985 to 1995. Then I discovered that Windows could do more for less money. Since that time, I've run both Mac and Windows, both laptop and desktop. 
 
Honestly, I see very little difference between the two these days. I use Windows for the heavy lifting with audio and video, and the Mac for office work, writing, and publishing. There are still a few points of differentiation; if you're savvy, you can get more performance out of a Windows machine for less money, they're easier to repair/replace, and they're better at backwards compatibility. Macs are easier in terms of hooking up peripherals, have better audio handling, and are pretty much essential for publishing. But the reality is the Mac isn't as special as Mac people think it is; and with RISC gone on the Mac, Windows machines don't have the kind of performance edge they once did.
 
When you buy into Apple, you need to do it with eyes open. Apple makes money on the hardware, so they'll make sure you need to upgrade hardware periodically. Microsoft makes money on software, so they want to make sure it runs on anything...and as many SONAR users have found out, just because you can open Windows doesn't make it an ideal environment for running SONAR.
 
It's all good. Except, of course, for when either OS is having a hissy fit. Then it's all bad.

...couldn't agree more...
...these are THE points.........

I am on PC for many of those same reasons. That doesn't take away from the fact that OSX has done something really well with CoreAudio and audio handling on the OS level. Plus the unlimited midi devices thing. I ran into the Windows device limit almost weekly and have since resorted to religiously uninstalling any drivers I'm not actually using at that time, and removing midi ports with a special utility. If I explain this to any of my Mac using studio friends they just laugh and shake their heads.

gothic.angel
 
 
Rain,
 
nothing to do with what you  specifically said...
just pointing out that these days there's no real big difference between Win and Mac in dealing with Audio and MIDI... therefore my meaning of those "commonplaces" that don't really make sense ANY longer... that's my meaning and my view.... 
 
far as the "commercial studios" deal.... yes, Mac WAS the most natural choice in those times when the industry "standard" began, but again, NOWADAYS it has nothing to do with performances or quality. It's because Macs (and Pro Tools...) were there at the right time in the right place, and today it's still "rooted tradition"...
 
In the meantime, Windows PC have become capable of much more powerful configurations, and recent Apple's market "strategies" mainly focused on i-Things and their relative targets have led a certain amount of customers (and studios...) to open their eyes....
 
Then personal experience: I work with Windows, and I happen to work with Macs with some of my colleague's too...
Well, of course BOTH have issues, but when it comes to performances, Macs become poor thing...
Apple LOGIC (especially since v8..) is buggy as hell (so it's not brilliant exception among DAWs), Cubase, Ableton Live and Propellerhead Reason run MUCH more fluently and smoothly on Windows...!!!
Ableton Live, in particular, crashes  on Macs as I never see on Windows...
 
And let me add, just as a personal consideration, that Windows has a certain DAW called SAMPLITUDE/SEQUOIA...
..audio editing (in particular...) at its VERY BEST...!!!
Depeche Mode (their engineers), just for instance, recorded their last tour performances on it.....
quite "professional" I would say...
 
So it's true, in the end, there's actually room for both platforms.

I don't know how we have to word it, friend - there is a difference in the way OSX handle audio and MIDI - it is not a matter of opinion, and it hasn't changed w/ Yosemite.
 
OSX natively handles audio better than Windows. Keyword is natively.
 
Craig Anderton himself says so. You keep quoting his posts and mine and yet you seem to misinterpret them to fit "your meaning and opinion". But it's not about opinions - it's a FACT.
 
Now, what happens after you install drivers and audio applications on a PC is a different story. But we're talking about the OS itself, with its own default configuration, drivers and settings. 
 
As for industry standards, you rightly point one of the reasons. There are many others, the whole ecosystem/integration also being one of them, and not so unimportant as one could think. Another one is that most people in the industry don't want to configure and set up a computer, download 3rd party apps, and drivers, choose a back up application and so on.
 
Assumptions are a funny things. People tend to say that the industry uses Mac because it's a standard, because of this, because of that - as if it couldn't be a choice. Truth is, most of the folks I speak with simply prefer Mac. As simple as that. All the rest is assumptions.
 
You may have some knowledge of Macs working with friends - but unless one spends some serious time working with Macs and Logic, I don't think they're qualified to make a call on them. Logic 8 was quite a long time ago - 2007-2008. And yes, there were a few tough years. But that's no longer relevant, is it?
 
Then came 2009. Logic 9 was actually the most sable DAW I've worked with, and that is first hand experience, here. I'm talking about running it a minimum of 5 days a week, 8-12 hours a day. For years. The only crashes I have ever had were caused by a couple of poorly coded 3rd party plug-ins - Line 6 POD Farm and another one I forget. 
 
Logic X does run pretty smoothly - not quite as solid as 9, but that's because 9 was phenomenal. X is at least as good/better than anything else I've worked with. 
 
Pretty much everyone I know in the business runs Logic and Pro Tools, and I've never heard anyone of them complain about Logic's stability since 9. X does require a newer, more powerful computer.
 
As for Ableton Live, it runs on a Macbook onstage 2 shows a night, 5 days a week, in front of thousand people, and has done so for over 4 years w/o a hitch. My guess is that it's used in other productions here too...
 
Again, I'm not saying PCs aren't a viable option. I could do music as well on a PC running Sonar. But in terms of market, for one major league production you name, such as Depeche Mode (of whom I am a huge fan), I can probably name 1000 who use Mac.
 

Rain
And let me add, just as a personal consideration, that Windows has a certain DAW called SAMPLITUDE/SEQUOIA...
..audio editing (in particular...) at its VERY BEST...!!!
Depeche Mode (their engineers), just for instance, recorded their last tour performances on it.....
quite "professional" I would say...
 

Ah the nice boys (slightly pervy) of Mute.
Off to run out and buy an Atari ST, Emulator III and a Fairlight (don't have an iPhone to download the app) just to remember the old days

Violator was recorded at my old studio and a friend of mine did some of the programming... fond memories...

Splat

gothic.angel
And let me add, just as a personal consideration, that Windows has a certain DAW called SAMPLITUDE/SEQUOIA...
..audio editing (in particular...) at its VERY BEST...!!!
Depeche Mode (their engineers), just for instance, recorded their last tour performances on it.....
quite "professional" I would say...
 

Ah the nice boys (slightly pervy) of Mute.
Off to run out and buy an Atari ST, Emulator III and a Fairlight (don't have an iPhone to download the app) just to remember the old days

Violator was recorded at my old studio and a friend of mine did some of the programming... fond memories...

 
...wow... I can bet they ARE fond memories......... 

Considering DP has gone Windows after being Mac only for decades I don't see why this post is any different.
 
 
Point 1: 
 
If there is no relevance to Cakewalk making OS X compatible software than please explain why Z3TA, CA-2A, Dimension Pro, etc are available for OS X? 

Point 2:
 
Just as PC users can choose between any number of DAW platforms, be it Cubase, Sonar, Studio One, Nuendo, etc… and they all have their own individual shortcomings, how is an OS preference suddenly not a preference but somehow a "trendy" choice? 
 
Point 3:
 
Since the components are preselected and the drivers are native to the OS you do not have driver conflicts with OS X. If the point is to make music, than call me crazy if I'd rather spend my time on a new machine writing music right away instead of chasing down senseless compatibility issues. 
 
Point 4:
 
Like it or not OS X is substantially more secure than Windows. You don't need an AV program in OS X, which is a performance crippler. Anyone who says you do does not understand how security and permissions work in OS X. (Additionally OS X's drive encryption is incredibly secure and has virtually zero overhead on any recent Intel CPU.)
 
Some of us have to send files to clients and it's less of a bottleneck to export and send from one place. It's absolutely senseless to have to install a program just so you can safely use your computer online when an OS can natively provide sufficient security. In the 8 years I've been on OSX I've experienced zero malware and zero virus threats.  
 
Just as people have their preferences about DAWs, people have their preferences about OS's as well… 
 
And anyone who thinks Microsoft is any less corporate or controlling than Apple has been drinking from the same Kool Aid bowl as the Mac fanatics they complain about. It's a computer and that's that.
 
It would be nice to eventually see Sonar ported natively to OS X… As someone who used it years ago and enjoyed it, it would be a welcome addition...
 

Mike is right.
 
I certainly do not want the limited resources which Cakewalk employ to have to spend at least 50% of their precious time developing the software for a platform which I will never use.
 
Selfish? Probably.

gothic.angel
 
Then personal experience: I work with Windows, and I happen to work with Macs with some of my colleague's too...
Well, of course BOTH have issues, but when it comes to performances, Macs become poor thing...
Apple LOGIC (especially since v8..) is buggy as hell (so it's not brilliant exception among DAWs), Cubase, Ableton Live and Propellerhead Reason run MUCH more fluently and smoothly on Windows...!!!
Ableton Live, in particular, crashes  on Macs as I never see on Windows...
 
 

This is simply Not true. I've been on OS X with Live since 2008 and it's stable as a rock through each version. I also had virtually identical performance on a dual core Mac as my previous dual core PC with very similar specs. 

And the claims that Logic X is slower than 9 are totally false. Here's benchmark test for anyone curious.
EDIT: Apparently since I'm new I can't post links. Search for: "Logic Multicore Test - evans . se" if interested.
I get the same track count with 9 and X, and 8 is actually less efficient as it has poorer multicore support. 
 
The only way to definitively say one OS is more or less efficient than the other is to test machines with an identical hardware configuration. Saying a PC with different specs is better is comparing apples to oranges.





 
 

wow 10 year old thread! some kind of record?

jccros
Considering DP has gone Windows after being Mac only for decades I don't see why this post is any different.

 
I believe MOTU's move relates to Logic selling for $199, thus making it more difficult for others to continue competing on the Mac platform.
 

If there is no relevance to Cakewalk making OS X compatible software than please explain why Z3TA, CA-2A, Dimension Pro, etc are available for OS X?

 
Because their market is anyone who uses a DAW. The market for SONAR is anyone who hasn't committed to a DAW on the Mac, which is a much smaller number. 

Since the components are preselected and the drivers are native to the OS you do not have driver conflicts with OS X.

 
To me, that is the Mac's biggest strength with respect to audio. It's one that Microsoft has started to target with Windows 10, but I think it's going to be quite a while before there's parity with the two platforms, given the Mac's head start. Core Audio rocks.
 

Like it or not OS X is substantially more secure than Windows. You don't need an AV program in OS X, which is a performance crippler. Anyone who says you do does not understand how security and permissions work in OS X. (Additionally OS X's drive encryption is incredibly secure and has virtually zero overhead on any recent Intel CPU.)

 
There's a reason why Apple's marketing materials no longer claim that their computers are invulnerable. Java, email attachments, USB drives, etc. can all provide points of entry into a Mac. Furthermore, Macs are used by hackers to harbor Windows malware so the Mac can be used to infect Windows machines. Although Mac OS security is good, hackers are always one step ahead. The Flashback virus infection is behind us, but other vulnerabilities continue to be found...
 
http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/06/new-remote-exploit-leaves-most-macs-vulnerable-to-permanent-backdooring/
 
More references to Mac security in general and past hacks...
 
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2012/04/24/mac-malware-study/
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/can-macs-get-viruses/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/13/mac-virus-fix-apple-flashback-trojan_n_1423256.html
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/best-antivirus,review-2588-6.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/11/apple-flashback-virus_n_1417886.html
http://news.drweb.com/show/?i=2341&lng=en&c=14
 
Security breaches with Apple's sites are not encouraging, either. 
 
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/24/apples-security-breach-should-scare-you-more-than-targets-did/
 
This is the scariest research paper, and it's from only a couple months ago. Don't forget about iOS vulnerabilities, either.
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxxXk1d3yyuZOFlsdkNMSGswSGs/view
 
Then there's this rather gaping hole...
 
https://reverse.put.as/2015/05/29/the-empire-strikes-back-apple-how-your-mac-firmware-security-is-completely-broken/
 
I use a Mac as well as Windows, so this isn't a religious matter with me. Anecdotal evidence about not experiencing a virus is all well and good, but just because I haven't experienced a virus on my Windows machine doesn't mean Windows owners should not be vigilant...and Mac users can't afford to be complacent any more, particularly in the light of how previous security breaches were handled. The addition of Gatekeeper helped deal with the kind of Mac issues that affected hundreds of thousands of users in 2012, but it's not a complete answer unless it's able to anticipate what hackers will come up with in the future - like they have in some of the documents mentioned above. 
 
None of this is about bashing the Mac, it's just a recognition that the days of Mac invulnerability are long gone, and that includes iPhones and the Apple Store. Based on the kind of links above, unless all the writers people are clueless about computer security, Mac users need to be aware of this reality rather than be lulled into a false sense of security just because traditionally, Macs were less vulnerable.
 

It would be nice to eventually see Sonar ported natively to OS X… As someone who used it years ago and enjoyed it, it would be a welcome addition...

 
I truly believe Cakewalk would never recoup the costs of developing a Mac OS X version of SONAR, and the diversion of resources from the Windows version would diminish the company's core product. With Logic selling for $199, it's going to be difficult for established companies to keep market share - just ask Avid and MOTU - let alone provide space for new companies to enter the fray.
 
Meanwhile, I know lots of people who really like Apple's hardware, so they run SONAR under Boot Camp or Parallels with an Apple computer. That's probably as close as you're going to come to a solution.
 

OSX is based on BSD Unix.

1. BSD = Unix
2. Linux = Unix.

If there's no dev for OSX, then no dev for Linux.
There should be as much work to coding under OSX than Linux.
 

Since Apple ate Camel Audio and Alchemy, it is my fervent desire that Mac users never, ever, ever get to use SONAR.

Well, since I just had to read through all that in my hopeful and apparently hopeless search...

If Sonar were Mac'd, I'd also buy/own it.

Hating on the MS/W10 scenario, and do not need Windows for anything else in this life but to get my 50+ Cakewalk projects out of my defunct XP machine's disc and unfortunately, sadly, but determinedly port them over to Logic-town.

Not a big fan of Apple either, believe me, but I have to choose one platform that centralizes all my studio needs, and after being IBM/PC-centric the WHOLE time I've been computing (since '91), MS just lost me when they dropped XP, a beautiful, working OS, and resorted to HostageWare, and so the hell with 'em. They took my excellent usable familiar Home Studio 4 down with it, and I can not bring myself to buy another Windows machine solely to remain loyal to Cakewalk, which IS the only reason I have been considering it.

Too good a product not to throw it into Mac-land competition, IMO, and I have owned/been using it since, what, 95-6? But there you have it. Loyalty meets pragmatism. I dont know of one studio that uses CW/S (which simply means I dont know of any, but that kind of IS saying something), but that does not matter to me on the song-creation/capture level that I would use it for, just as I used GB when it was all that was handy, and now will use Logic, since I had to buy it to port my GB projects up and out so that ProTools goons can use my serviceable and preferable demo performances and I dont have to pay to re-record them. I will have to pay someone with CW/S to get my projects out. Sucks that does, I dont like having to do it.

Wish I could just click BUY and have it load on this machine, I'd sincerely be all "Logic who?". I dont need freaking Windows for anything else : /

As a very long time developer with experience on many, many OS's I find it difficult to understand the animosity toward Windows, and why one would prefer one enormously wealthy corporate behemoth over another. The guy who said choose your marketing was dead on.
 
That said, Windows is a highly capable system and Sonar leverages its services beautifully. Further, MS is busily reengineering the audio stack to provide even higher levels of flexibility and performance as we speak, and I look forward to someday soon running a fully featured Sonar on my Windows phone.
 
Well, gotta go, I lost the keys to my hovercar.