jkoseattle
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Staff view enhancements
Haven't used Staff View much over the years, trying to now though. Staff view doesn't seem to understand triplets. My piece is mostly in 6/8, rendering Staff view very difficult to use. EastWest uses keyswitches to change instrument articulations, which are notes played at the bottom end of the keyboard. Staff view renders these faithfully, with huge columns of ledger lines. I wish I could filter the range of an instrument so that those low midi events don't clutter up the screen. Any remedies for any of this?
post edited by jkoseattle - 2017/11/14 17:39:10
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michael diemer
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/14 17:41:50
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Staff view is meant as an editor, not notation. For true notation, you need to export to a real notation program. Musescore is free. Notion is very affordable, and there are many more at various price levels.
Staff view has been a bone of contention for years. The general consensus is that it's not going to improve. In fact, some say it's going backwards.
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jkoseattle
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/14 22:34:46
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I have used both Finale and Sibelius before, but this is more for seeing things in real time while working in SONAR, since PRV is proving too limiting and frustrating.
What there needs to be is a new view entirely, that uses the piano roll interface like the current PRV, but is laid out like a traditional score, where every track is its own row. I realize one can sort of do this with Track View, but working with traditional clips in Track View has its advantages too, so we really need both.
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/15 00:05:07
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Hi, look to me Sonar is a shell program, well depending on your skill set and what you use in your DAW almost all are. And by shell program, I mean the DAW is used for editing and mixing - I stick with Sonar mind you because it is a Windows specialist, and because it's 64bit mix engine with up-sampling is still by far the best in business IMO.
These days, because of my skill set...I use Notion 6 by Presonus for most of my sequencing, I then import either audio files or midi files into Sonar for mixing. Midi sequencing - whether you're using Sonar, Logic or some other program - using the old block system is a pretty poor cousin to music notation, and particularly when you can write in dynamic changes and the like so much easier in a program like Notion.
So if you want to use notation to sequence, then I would use a separate program such as Notion.
I think it's time Cakewalk put this bugbear to bed and just drop the 'notation' screen in Sonar. It does not work, and it is useless. Sorry Cake. But someone had to say it.
Ben
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trtzbass
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/15 01:09:39
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BenMMusTech
I think it's time Cakewalk put this bugbear to bed and just drop the 'notation' screen in Sonar. It does not work, and it is useless. Sorry Cake. But someone had to say it.
I am a fan of writing music the old fashioned way and have always hoped CW would update the notation editor. Having said that I agree 100% with what you wrote. The score editor as it is now is nearly unusable and it's the testament to a potentially awesome feature that has been left there to rot. Sorry to be saying that but after all the years of users asking for a bit of attention in that department and a response that's basically "Oh you are asking for us to update the notation page? Sure, here's a skin editor for you", I have lost all faith that anyone will ever do anything about it. It's understandable that the new generations don't care for a functional score editor, but still...
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abacab
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/15 02:41:38
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I haven't used any premium standalone notation editors, but the free open source community MuseScore appears to be quite capable as an editor. At least it is better than Cakewalk.  https://musescore.org/en
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Kamikaze
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/15 04:30:17
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It's still useful to me, so I would hate to see it ditched. I have given up hpe that cakewalk will ever d anything, and simply believe, no one understands it enough to delve in, which they don't want t admit. Simple things like returning the note length bar should be simple enough to do. Panup can do it.
Last weekend I was becoming familiar with the bass tab view. Having the staff above it was great. Now that we can convert audio to midi, it took little effort to import a bass guitar track, convert it to midi, and view it in tab form. Th staff view helped when making edits, and keeping track of the notes.
I'm glad I have lifetime membership, because paying for upgrades, when Cakewalk have failed to upgrade something for over a decade that they happily advertise as a great function, would leave a sour taste with every payment.
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Joe_A
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/15 21:05:32
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With all the options, anyone want to share more on Notation Composer? Or others, now I'm interested.
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vintagevibe
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/15 21:24:32
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☄ Helpfulby Ionian 2017/11/22 23:53:56
jkoseattle
Haven't used Staff View much over the years, trying to now though.
Staff view doesn't seem to understand triplets. My piece is mostly in 6/8, rendering Staff view very difficult to use.
EastWest uses keyswitches to change instrument articulations, which are notes played at the bottom end of the keyboard. Staff view renders these faithfully, with huge columns of ledger lines. I wish I could filter the range of an instrument so that those low midi events don't clutter up the screen.
Any remedies for any of this?
Two points: 1) This post might make you the target of extreme disrespect, insults and general rudeness for suggesting such an outrageous thing as to have useable notation in a DAW.2) Cakewalk will never ever make the staff view in Sonar useable or into a professional tool like Cubase, Protools, Performer, Reaper or Logic have.
Just some info for you to ponder.
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abacab
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/15 21:31:52
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Jimbo 88
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/15 23:07:06
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i've been saying this for years, that not making notation somewhat of priority is a big, long term mistake. Technology is going to change, but notation is not.
Every year there are hundreds of thousands of kids who start band/orchestra around the world. They all learn to read basic notation and that is their 1st experience producing music. When I was a kid recording music was on tape, but I read music. Now it's on a computer emulating analogue machines, and kids still learn how to read music on a staff.
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Kev999
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/15 23:14:25
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BenMMusTech
...I think it's time Cakewalk put this bugbear to bed and just drop the 'notation' screen in Sonar. It does not work, and it is useless...
I disagree. Although I don't use it much for editing, I do use it for displaying multiple softsynth instrument parts. It's good for showing an overview of the arrangement. If you have 2 or more screens, PRV and SV displayed side by side, with one zoomed in and the other zoomed out, can be very useful.
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abacab
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/16 00:11:23
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I agree that the Sonar notation view can be useful for displaying the arrangement. But also agree that using it for notation editing and composing is what most of the complaints are about.
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kitekrazy1
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/16 00:32:59
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Post #2 should have been crickets chirping, done.
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sharke
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/16 00:54:26
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I don't understand the argument "it's not meant as a notation program" when people complain about the triplet problem. The piano roll isn't meant as a notation program either, yet it understands triplets perfectly well. There is no credible argument to justify the staff view having problems with triplets or any other common rhythmic figure.
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abacab
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/16 01:17:20
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I really wish Cakewalk would just fix what's broke and leave it at that. Then we would probably see a lot less of these types of threads. I would probably even be willing to give up a few months of regular updates if they would just do it and be done with it!!! I don't use notation view that often, but this situation has dragged on to the point it is ridiculous now.
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michael diemer
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/16 03:47:02
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sharke
I don't understand the argument "it's not meant as a notation program" when people complain about the triplet problem. The piano roll isn't meant as a notation program either, yet it understands triplets perfectly well. There is no credible argument to justify the staff view having problems with triplets or any other common rhythmic figure.
All notation programs seem to have trouble with triplets (and then there's quadruplets, septuplets, nonuplets...I once did elevens, no idea what to even call that). Notation itself is apparently very challenging as software goes. I don't worry about how it looks in Sonar or other DAW, as long as it plays correctly. I fix it when I export to Notion, which is what I use for real notation. My main comcern is workflow. Can you scroll in either direction easily? Can you zoom easily? Can you quickly select a group of notes of any length, over any number of measures, so you can copy, paste etc? Soanr and Reaper allow you to do all this. That's what I mean by using it as an editing tool.
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noynekker
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/16 04:10:02
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Kev999
BenMMusTech
...I think it's time Cakewalk put this bugbear to bed and just drop the 'notation' screen in Sonar. It does not work, and it is useless...
I disagree. Although I don't use it much for editing, I do use it for displaying multiple softsynth instrument parts. It's good for showing an overview of the arrangement. If you have 2 or more screens, PRV and SV displayed side by side, with one zoomed in and the other zoomed out, can be very useful.
These days I find myself constantly morphing between Staff View and PRV (It's just a quick keyboard command between the two) The recent improvements to PRV have made things better, in my opinion, to switch constantly between Staff and PRV. If they would only consult with Panup and bring back the note length settings and the triplet functionality we have all been pleading for, there would be total peace in Cakeland this Christmas season.
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jkoseattle
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/16 14:32:09
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☄ Helpfulby jackson white 2017/11/16 15:06:11
I don't think it's a matter of whether notation view is viable or not. While I agree that traditional notation is not going away ever, the way computers work doesn't lend well to it, which is why it's not great for a DAW. Notation has always been an approximation of the sound, operating under the "well, you know what I mean" paradigm. Baroque composers would put a squiggle over a note which meant "do some sort of trill thing" and just what that was was open to interpretation, by design. Computers are terrible guessers, they are strict literalists, so that every last thing has to be spelled out for them. Traditional notation just doesn't work like that, which poses three unsolvable problems: 1) Traditional notation doesn't contain all the information a computer needs to play the music correctly, 2) There is a lot of information in the music that notation can't communicate, and 3) the exactness of computers eliminates the "you know what I mean" aspect to notation, leading to things like whole notes tied to trailing 16th notes.
BUT... what notation does provide elegantly that any DAW would be capable of reproducing is a clear picture of what's going on in every instrument at any given time. Track View comes closest to this, by having each instrument on its own row, but it falls short because of how clips get made and rendered. (i.e. you can have clips with no notes in them, or a clip with a bunch of legato repeated 16th notes looks identical to a clip with one long note in it, etc., etc., etc.). PRV usually fails in this, because instruments all occupy the same vertical space, so there's a lot of overlap.
Combining PRV and Track View into a new view designed to solve this problem is totally possible. Imagine PRV with separate rows for visible tracks, and a dynamic Fit Content option which fits visible content and adjusts all the time, so that most or all notes are visible on-screen no matter where you are in the piece. Add to this a gradient background, so that low notes are displayed on a darker background than high notes (instead of having to look at "C3"). And the view would always show all tracks that currently have notes in them and hide those that don't.
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sharke
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/16 16:39:19
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I've never used the staff view primarily because of the general consensus that it sucks and all of the problems people report put me off. But I think if I did use a staff view, it would be to get a solid "blueprint" of the music down, which I would then take off to the PRV for fine adjustment/ornamentation etc. That seems like a good workflow to me.
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WallyG
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/16 16:57:11
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sharke
I don't understand the argument "it's not meant as a notation program" when people complain about the triplet problem. The piano roll isn't meant as a notation program either, yet it understands triplets perfectly well. There is no credible argument to justify the staff view having problems with triplets or any other common rhythmic figure.
I agree! I collaborate with my son who lives in Japan. For his parts I need to send him sheet music. His parts usually have some triplets in them so I can't use Sonar Staff View. I instead have to save his part as MIDI, import it into Sibelius and print out from them. I don't need a Notation Program with edit capability just print out the parts correctly! Walt
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michael diemer
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/16 17:45:33
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jkoseattle
I don't think it's a matter of whether notation view is viable or not. While I agree that traditional notation is not going away ever, the way computers work doesn't lend well to it, which is why it's not great for a DAW. Notation has always been an approximation of the sound, operating under the "well, you know what I mean" paradigm. Baroque composers would put a squiggle over a note which meant "do some sort of trill thing" and just what that was was open to interpretation, by design. Computers are terrible guessers, they are strict literalists, so that every last thing has to be spelled out for them. Traditional notation just doesn't work like that, which poses three unsolvable problems: 1) Traditional notation doesn't contain all the information a computer needs to play the music correctly, 2) There is a lot of information in the music that notation can't communicate, and 3) the exactness of computers eliminates the "you know what I mean" aspect to notation, leading to things like whole notes tied to trailing 16th notes.
BUT... what notation does provide elegantly that any DAW would be capable of reproducing is a clear picture of what's going on in every instrument at any given time. Track View comes closest to this, by having each instrument on its own row, but it falls short because of how clips get made and rendered. (i.e. you can have clips with no notes in them, or a clip with a bunch of legato repeated 16th notes looks identical to a clip with one long note in it, etc., etc., etc.). PRV usually fails in this, because instruments all occupy the same vertical space, so there's a lot of overlap.
Combining PRV and Track View into a new view designed to solve this problem is totally possible. Imagine PRV with separate rows for visible tracks, and a dynamic Fit Content option which fits visible content and adjusts all the time, so that most or all notes are visible on-screen no matter where you are in the piece. Add to this a gradient background, so that low notes are displayed on a darker background than high notes (instead of having to look at "C3"). And the view would always show all tracks that currently have notes in them and hide those that don't.
Your suggestion for a new view combining staff and prv is very interesting. It makies me think of Cubase. Cubase's track view is interesting in that it has little notes in it, showing the vertical and horizontal relations in the musical content. But you can't select a subset out of the whole, or at least I don't know how to do that. Still, there is the consideration of ranges of instruments. The great usefulness of a stave is that you see exactly what the notes are. This allows you to instantly pick out mistakes, like having the violins playing an F on the bass clef, which is below their range (they only go down to G, unless you use scordatura, having the player retune the string, which is pretty unusual). If you're arranging a string section, you need to see all the five groups (two sections of violins, plus violas, cellos and basses). This lets you make sure you have ranges correct, but also how well the parts fit together. Of course, your ear is the final arbiter here, but the visual matrix of notation is indispensable for most composers. And yes, there are composers who prefer working in a DAW vs a notation program. Especially ametuers or hobbyists, who need the feedback of decent sound to assist with their orchestration. I think your idea has merit and I hope somebody picks up on it. A new synthesis, a new paradigm even, of how to display music in a way that all musicians could use, both notation types and prv types, would be a game changer.
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/16 23:32:27
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Joe_A
With all the options, anyone want to share more on Notation Composer? Or others, now I'm interested.
Hi Joe, I've been meaning to answer this question for you. I use Notion 6 by Presonus, I've used it since 2011. For the price, it is the bomb. It can be rewired into Sonar too. I just want to mention, to follow on from my comment earlier...when I said Cakewalk should drop the score page in Sonar. I wasn't attacking or complaining about it or indeed Cakewalk for not 'fixing' the score editor. After using Notion for almost 6 years now, I now understand how difficult and pointless it would be for Cakewalk to make the score page even halfway useful. Notion 6 and the orchestral instruments in Notion 6 all respond to theoretical notation makers like dynamics and slurs for examples. Notion 6 also allows you to write custom rules, so VSTis can also respond to musical notation. It would be very time consuming and I suspect expensive to get the score editor to at least the point where you could customize VSTis to respond to the written musical markings within the score editor. Sonar seems to be primarily designed for songwriting...not composition - there is a difference. And for the most part, the people who use Sonar are tradition songwriters...not classical composers - although I straddle both worlds these days. This doesn't mean Sonar can't be used by classical composers for mixing - something I would encourage classical type composers to experiment with, as I will trumpet this till the cows come home - Sonar is by far the best DAW for any type of digital audio work IMO. The tracking screen, and mix screen really are the most intuitive I've ever used, and I've used all the major DAWS. My point does stand though...just dump the silly score screen. It actually probably makes Sonar look at bit half baked particularly to new users. Ben
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riojazz
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/17 02:39:25
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Please do NOT request that Cakewalk delete the staff view function, no matter how it works.
I hope this doesn't become another 1000+ post thread of complaints and misunderstanding, but I'll just mention that some of us use staff view for editing MIDI within SONAR. This is a completely separate task from exporting to a dedicated music notation program.
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michael diemer
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/17 05:24:54
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If they dump staff view, there will be a number of users who will abandon Sonar. I don't know how large that number is, but why would they want to lose any users in such a competitive market? I would be shocked if they dumped it. Why close doors, as the saying goes?
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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sharke
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/17 15:07:19
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I'd still love to see Cakewalk partner with a notation software company to integrate a "lite" version within Sonar, kind of like how a lite version of Melodyne is integrated. It could just have enough of the basic functionality to be able to get a score into Sonar, without any of the bells and whistles related to producing professionally typeset scores and without the orchestral libraries that typically come with notation programs. They could charge a fee for an upgrade to a full version of course. It would be a win win situation for everyone - Sonar users would have good quality notation functionality, Cakewalk wouldn't have to be embarrassed at having such a bad notation editor, and the developers would get a ton of new business from the upgrades (as Celemony has from Sonar and Studio One's Melodyne integration).
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DrLumen
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/17 17:06:44
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sharke
I'd still love to see Cakewalk partner with a notation software company to integrate a "lite" version within Sonar, kind of like how a lite version of Melodyne is integrated. It could just have enough of the basic functionality to be able to get a score into Sonar, without any of the bells and whistles related to producing professionally typeset scores and without the orchestral libraries that typically come with notation programs. They could charge a fee for an upgrade to a full version of course. It would be a win win situation for everyone - Sonar users would have good quality notation functionality, Cakewalk wouldn't have to be embarrassed at having such a bad notation editor, and the developers would get a ton of new business from the upgrades (as Celemony has from Sonar and Studio One's Melodyne integration).
I was just thinking about the same thing. Perhaps the lite version would not support codas or have more than x tracks in a view at one time. I used the CW staff view years ago before finding the PRV. I honestly don't understand why it is so difficult for them to have a decent staff view. The rules for notation are out there. While I have no doubt some notation rules are just semantics (the staff is drawn up below this note or ...), it seems like the basics could be implemented rather easily. shrugs.
-When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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Joe_A
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/17 21:25:58
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Notion 6 looks pretty good, and affordable.
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michael diemer
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/17 22:29:46
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I use Notion, currently still on 5. For the money, you can't beat it. The sound library is so good I wish I could use it in Sonar (I'm pretty sure you can't).
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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jsg
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Re: Staff view enhancements
2017/11/18 07:30:57
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BenMMusTech
I think it's time Cakewalk put this bugbear to bed and just drop the 'notation' screen in Sonar. It does not work, and it is useless. Sorry Cake. But someone had to say it.
Ben
This is news to me. I just finished this piece using the notation editor, it works fine, other than the tied and dotted triplet issue: http://www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/Tenth%20Symphony%201st%20movement.mp3 Jerry
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