Staff view - how many users seriously use it?

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Susan G
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 18:06:44 (permalink)
Hi-
This is incorrect and very misleading. Sibelius has the ability to play back EXACTLY what was played in and still DISPLAY in "quantized" form.

When I said "to be readable" I meant readable (comfortably) by a human player, not software. I thought I made that clear, sorry if not.

-Susan

Edit: BTW, just to be clear:
ORIGINAL: Susan G

Some kind of "non-destructive" quantize. Keep the raw data, keeping your performance, display the quantized one.

Exactly. You can also (in version 6) "conduct" in real time via computer keyboard spacebar.

That wasn't my quote, but marce's (see Post #47)

Thanks-

-Susan
post edited by Susan G - 2009/05/21 18:19:57

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#61
cryophonik
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 18:54:07 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: daveny5

I use it for what I believe it was intended for: editing MIDI tracks. I prefer real notation to the Piano Roll View. I don't use it for printing manuscript.


When I first started using Sonar, that was my intention as well, but the Staff View's shortcomings drove me nuts and I ultimately adapted to using just the PRV and Event Editor for the vast majority of my MIDI work. But, if the Staff View was improved, I'd probably rely on it a lot more.

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#62
mrBun
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 19:38:11 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: uncleswede

Hi,
I've just been reading some threads on Sonar's Staff View and its obvious deficiencies. The threads had posts from a lot of passionate users who maintained that "we all are obviously unsatisfied" and that this is "the biggest problem with their software". Some were so disappointed with it that they were considering abandoning Sonar altogether.

The question occurred to me re: what percentage of Sonar users seriously use the Staff View (I don't...) and therefore how much of a deficiency is it overall. I didn't want to hijack the other threads so I thought I'd ask the question here.


I'm a composer working within the gaming industry.
I write most MIDI within Sonar's prv, but print a basic score out for our legal/compliance people as part of my workflow.
On the rare occasions I utilise the skills of other musicians, I like to work from a score... I started out in orchestration with pencil & paper...(computer notation can be a real time saver)
I also use SV to check my arrangements for "gotchas".

I would like to see improvements in the way Sonar handles notation.
thanks,
Geoff

http://www.geoffbarnes.com/
#63
vmw
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 20:45:30 (permalink)
I wish cake would buy in some expertise to make a sophisticated staff view; after all they use cake branded plugins & synths developed (in part/whole) from other companies. Perhaps now that Project5 has been dropped they can use that budget for an upgraded staff view.
#64
guitar0633
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/20 21:50:58 (permalink)
I use it because I can bring the fret board section up and input chords for my Digitech vocalist as well as input controllers telling it when to turn on and off. It's VERY VERY important to me.
#65
k4ro
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/21 09:40:14 (permalink)
The primary reason that I stopped upgrading SONAR after version 3 was due to the very poor staff notation capabilities of SONAR. After much frustration trying to use SONAR Staff View, I finally purchased Sibelius. I've learned to use Sibelius for all of my scoring needs.

I did finally upgrade SONAR after 5 years to version 8, only to learn that the Staff View really had not improved much, if at all. Since staff notation seems to be the forgotten stepchild of SONAR, I'll probably wait another five years to upgrade, assuming I don't eventually switch to a DAW with better staff editing capabilities.

SONAR is an otherwise fine product. It's a shame that one of the oldest and most fundamental tools for creating and sharing music (staff notation) is so woefully inadequate in SONAR.
#66
pzay
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/21 10:15:14 (permalink)
I use it. I would use it a lot more if it were any good.....it would really streamline my work flow.
Peter
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Jon Bryson
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/21 10:55:34 (permalink)
I sincerely hope they have a few Beta testers on tap that care about this if they are working on it. There are people in this thread that could give the kind of feedback needed.

Jon
post edited by Jon Bryson - 2009/05/21 11:05:23
#68
vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/21 12:11:58 (permalink)
I was just looking at Protools 8 and comparig it to Sonar 8. It's amazing how certain vital things are missing and yet even they have good notation. No auto delay compensation, 48 track limit etc... and yet their notaion is quite good. Sad, really that Sonar is so far behind PT8 in this area.
#69
gwmatt
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/21 12:47:25 (permalink)
Count me as another who doesn't use the staff view at all. I've had Sonar since v. 5 and have never once even tried it. I could care less whether Cakewalk improves it, ignores it, or removes it entirely.

Glenn Matteson's music (such as it is)
#70
dbh
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/21 13:04:46 (permalink)
+1 for staff improvement.

I'm a media composer. I use it as a key part of the composition and arranging process along with piano roll and all the other tools available - I choose what's best for the job at hand when I need it. Sometimes the stave is simply the best place to work out ideas for complex arrangements. I have been continually frustrated by it's shortcomings over the years (especially when compared to other DAWs) and I would really love to see it improved. Publishing is best done in other software but Sonar needs it for efficient midi editing and for the ability to do basic printing of lead sheets etc.

Now that even ProTools are prepared to make a decent go of it Cake must take it seriously if they want to keep up.

Cheers,
dbh
#71
davidthiel@hotmail.com
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/21 13:23:52 (permalink)
like many others I have adapted (mutated) and I read piano roll nearly as well as I used to read notation.
Still, I use notation and would like it to be easier to use. Notation is still a better tool for arranging voicings of brass sections and strings.

There are times when I enter material in with the keyboard from notation. I use Sonar notation to double check my accuracy as a starting point.
I have also used notation when collaborating with the band to communicate a bass line or guitar riff. I've screen captured a line from the notation window, cropped and pasted it into a lead sheet which otherwise is a text summary of the tune.

So, if it had better coverage over triplets and dotted figures and it wasn't so twitchy I would use it more.

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#72
pzay
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/21 13:33:45 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: gwmatt

Count me as another who doesn't use the staff view at all. I've had Sonar since v. 5 and have never once even tried it. I could care less whether Cakewalk improves it, ignores it, or removes it entirely.


I could say that about many features in Sonar, however, staff view is very important to many components of professional music production.
Peter
#73
vmw
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/25 21:17:59 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: gwmatt

Count me as another who doesn't use the staff view at all. I've had Sonar since v. 5 and have never once even tried it. I could care less whether Cakewalk improves it, ignores it, or removes it entirely.


So how do you write orchestration parts?
#74
Susan G
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/25 21:33:39 (permalink)
Hi vmw-
ORIGINAL: vmw
ORIGINAL: gwmatt

Count me as another who doesn't use the staff view at all. I've had Sonar since v. 5 and have never once even tried it. I could care less whether Cakewalk improves it, ignores it, or removes it entirely.


So how do you write orchestration parts?

Well, the poster doesn't, is the obvious answer. The OP's question was how many users seriously use SONAR's Staff View.

-Susan

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#75
vmw
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/26 04:16:56 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Susan G

Hi vmw-
ORIGINAL: vmw
ORIGINAL: gwmatt

Count me as another who doesn't use the staff view at all. I've had Sonar since v. 5 and have never once even tried it. I could care less whether Cakewalk improves it, ignores it, or removes it entirely.


So how do you write orchestration parts?

Well, the poster doesn't, is the obvious answer. The OP's question was how many users seriously use SONAR's Staff View.

-Susan


Well I don’t know about it being the obvious answer, possibly the most likely. Asking “how many users seriously use SONAR's Staff View” can’t be answered because it is not a “serious” interface/tool.
#76
MurderDethKill
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/26 06:11:38 (permalink)
I've used the Sonar staff view, and held out high hopes for it when Cakewalk picked up metro and Overture.

I gave up hope after they sold these assets, and I didn't see much improvement in the Score editing.

I now use Finale for score editing and final output printing - but it wasn't because I wanted to.

In any case, I still own and upgrade my Sonar regularly...

but the answer is, I no longer use it at all.

edit: I would've paid for a Sonar plug-in interface for editing, had they created one...
post edited by MurderDethKill - 2009/05/26 06:16:30

My site i guess;)
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#77
Alabaster
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/27 09:56:39 (permalink)
When composing concert music I use staff view extensively. It frustrates the heck out of me and I would desperately like to see some improvements.

I don't need to print from SONAR. I have notation software for that. But I'd like to be able to at least *work* in staff view in an intuitive, musical way. Right now it's like trying to write a novel in a word processor with auto-correct set permanently to "kidz txt msg 4evr" mode. It just doesn't display music in a mature way that reflects how musicians put music down on paper. (except perhaps for very simple scores).

For those of us who think/read/write in notation, it's really sub-par.

I'm not sure where all the hate is coming from. Cakewalk's roots are in MIDI sequencing. A lot of people use SONAR for scoring with soft-synths and sample libraries. Sure SONAR is a DAW but it's fundamentally a program for creating *music,* and it makes no sense to throw out or closet the language that musicians use to communicate.

I'm not a programmer, but I know that a few display/usability tweaks in staff view aren't exactly going to bloat SONAR. If they could approach staff view the same way they approached the PRV Tool a couple of versions ago that would be great--we're not messing with the audio engine here, just improving accessibility and workflow.

Nobody's looking to turn Cakewalk into Finale or Sibelius -- again, those of us who need to print scores already have one of these -- we just want to be able to work with dots on a staff in a way that resembles the way real musical language.

chris.
#78
g_randybrown
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/27 10:28:00 (permalink)
Right now it's like trying to write a novel in a word processor with auto-correct set permanently to "kidz txt msg 4evr" mode.....


Now that's funny

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#79
vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/27 10:38:11 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Alabaster
Right now it's like trying to write a novel in a word processor with auto-correct set permanently to "kidz txt msg 4evr" mode.



What a great way to put it!
#80
papa2004
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/27 11:16:24 (permalink)


ORIGINAL: vmw

So how do you write orchestration parts?


I still score the old-fashioned way...pencil & manuscript paper. When I need to print scores for "live" players I use Sibelius. While the notation feature of SONAR is, IMO, an added "bonus" for printing out relatively simple parts I would never consider its "shortcomings" as a "deal-breaker". I purchased SONAR for the audio & MIDI functions. Staff view wasn't a factor in my purchasing decision.

Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge those who want "better" SV implementation. The bottom line is that CW has never proclaimed that SONAR is a "notation" program. It has notation "features" (as limited as they may be) but it isn't a program designed specifically for notation purposes.

As to the comparisons to PT8...Guess what? AVID has a lot more money to throw around than CW does. The virtual "mints" they made when PT was the only accepted "industry standard" (which, BTW, played a part in the demise of many studios due to the exorbitant costs involved in "keeping up") affords them the luxury of buying out companies that they can now include in their "starter" programs.

I see no sense in continuing this discussion as it has been brought up dozens of times in the past. Sorry if I ticked anyone off...If notation was your primary interest (or, at the least, an important feature) you should have tried the demo version first or consulted someone who had used the product.

Regards,
Papa
#81
Benny Bear
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/27 11:48:40 (permalink)
Long time user of staff view - obviously would like improvements. If it was removed I would have to change DAW and I don't want to do that as I like too many other bits!

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#82
vintagevibe
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/27 17:28:48 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: papa2004



ORIGINAL: vmw

So how do you write orchestration parts?


I still score the old-fashioned way...pencil & manuscript paper. When I need to print scores for "live" players I use Sibelius. While the notation feature of SONAR is, IMO, an added "bonus" for printing out relatively simple parts I would never consider its "shortcomings" as a "deal-breaker". I purchased SONAR for the audio & MIDI functions. Staff view wasn't a factor in my purchasing decision.

Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge those who want "better" SV implementation. The bottom line is that CW has never proclaimed that SONAR is a "notation" program. It has notation "features" (as limited as they may be) but it isn't a program designed specifically for notation purposes.

As to the comparisons to PT8...Guess what? AVID has a lot more money to throw around than CW does. The virtual "mints" they made when PT was the only accepted "industry standard" (which, BTW, played a part in the demise of many studios due to the exorbitant costs involved in "keeping up") affords them the luxury of buying out companies that they can now include in their "starter" programs.

I see no sense in continuing this discussion as it has been brought up dozens of times in the past. Sorry if I ticked anyone off...If notation was your primary interest (or, at the least, an important feature) you should have tried the demo version first or consulted someone who had used the product.


If your point is that "CW has never proclaimed that SONAR is a "notation" program" then you have no clue what this thread is about. You should read a little before posting. Of course you "see no sense in continuing this discussion" because you personally don't want it therefore no one else should have it either. I use Sibelius and Sonar still needs usable notation. It's not the same thing. Let me re-state: you have no clue what this thread is about.

My favorite quote from you is: "you should have tried the demo version first or consulted someone who had used the product." Are you saying that Sonar should only have features that are in the current demo and that development should stop? I really don't think you know what you are trying to say. Since you "still score the old-fashioned way...pencil & manuscript paper" perhaps you should by a Tascam Cassette Porta Studio since you don't understand the use or purpose of modern DAW's.



#83
RJN
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/27 18:58:09 (permalink)
I use Staff View during composition to layout chord changes for MIDI tracks and to view step-entered sequences. Also, it's still the most efficient way to enter pedal events into piano tracks.
As a long-time user of SONAR, I have accommodated my workflow to the portions of the program that have proven to be most efficient. But, I can still remember my early attempts to get the SV to do things that I thought were intuitive, and my disappointment when it failed.

Rob
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#84
fcarosone
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 03:22:59 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Susan G

CW conducted a SV User survey a while back.
I don't use it as much as I did early on because a) I know its limitations better b) I have Finale now. For me, the fact that I needed to purchase additional software to notate my music accurately (the triplet issue, for example, has been documented to death) means that SONAR is deficient in that area.
So to answer your question, I almost never use SONAR's Staff View now, but that doesn't mean notation isn't important to me -- just the opposite, in fact.
-Susan


I totally agree. I remember the survey. Notation is mainly needed when you are or you deal with real classic musicians. The intersection of this category with the set of Sonar users is apparently little, since we saw no improvement after that survey. I also do not use staff view, and Finale (the cheapest printmusic) was the choice for me, showing that the need is there.
f

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#85
millzy
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 05:05:18 (permalink)
Wow, i'm blown away by the number of people who use it! By no means a deal breaker for me, i've probably only opened that view a few times ever, but to see everyone chiming in here with SV issues is interesting to say the least!

Millzy

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#86
Marah
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 05:33:02 (permalink)
Instead of endlessly kicking the dead horse that is SV in the current incarnation of Sonar, it might be useful to hear the experiences of others with some of the standalone notation packages. Especially the free and / or low cost ones. Like how well they import and export MIDI, how well they rewire, and stuff like that.

It seems to be a fairly complex type of software. I've barely been able to crack the surface of any of them on a first try. I discovered yet another one yesterday that seemed nice... called MagicScore... http://www.musicaleditor.com/ It seemed fairly intuitive without lacking depth.

Honestly though, if Sonar's SV would only wrap at the window's edge, I'd consider it a HUGE improvement..... but my needs are pretty simple... usually just transcribing MIDI.

(If PRV were to optionally show note names with each note event, it would make it easier to read, as notation, especially for things like single voices and simple harmonies.)
post edited by Marah - 2009/05/30 05:43:33
#87
A1MixMan
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 07:56:15 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Marah

Count me among those who don't "seriously use" Staff View because I don't consider it seriously usable. And I wouldn't even be a heavy user. But every so often there's something I'd like to see in notation, like a part that I just jammed out and don't really know what I did, or to be able to see a vocal line or a counter line that goes against it.

I remember my disappointment the first time I opened SV in Sonar 2. It's like it was barely even there.

It's *too* faithful -- literal minded -- to performance subtleties and so gives you a clutter of note values that for staff purposes should be resolved to basic quarters and eighths and so on... it should have some kind of automatic "quantization" tolerance, or whatever. So I end up creating a special quantized clone just for staff view. But even then, even for just a single staff, the view is linear and doesn't wrap, so it's not terribly useful. I've occasionally used Prinit View, or actually printed it out, just to see what was going on.

I recently started using Finale Notepad 2008 when I really need notation. I export a .mid from Sonar (a function which is also not well implemented) and then drag it into Finale. It was a free LE version of the main Finale program (which I don't need.) They recently updated it to version 2009, and started charging $10 for a download version. Even for the most basic things, it's way beyond what the Sonar SV can do.

To be honest, Staff View looks like an early example of a feature that was added and more or less forgotten.

I do NOT think staff view, even as it is, should be removed. But realistically, I think the chances of its being improved in the current Sonar line/design are non-existent and that those waiting for a change in Sonar 9 are waiting for the same Godot they were waiting for in Sonar 8 and Sonar 7. If SV was important to Cakewalk's business, they'd have addressed it long ago.



I agree with everything Marah said above.

Brent
#88
Kev999
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 08:34:49 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: vintagevibe

As an example: A pop song that needs a string part. I would be insane to try to create 4 part voice leading in the piano view.

In that case, I'm insane.

Piano roll view is simple, straightforward, logical and intuitive. I have never looked back since the first day I started using it. I don't see any possible benefit in returning to using traditional music notation and, so far, nothing that I have read here has make me want to reconsider. I'm happy to be insane.

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#89
Susan G
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RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it? 2009/05/30 08:44:32 (permalink)
Hi Kev-
I don't see any possible benefit in returning to using traditional music notation and, so far, nothing that I have read here has make me want to reconsider.

It's certainly handy if you need to provide parts to singers/instrumentalists who read traditional notation but not piano rolls!

I think it depends, too, on what you started with. I read music long before there were any such things as personal computers, and it took me a while to adjust to a PRV. I still hear music much better in my head when I see it in a traditional staff format.

-Susan

2.30 gigahertz Intel Core i7-3610QM; 16 GB RAM
Windows 10 x64; NI Komplete Audio 6.
SONAR Platinum (Lexington) x64
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