Helpful ReplySupreme Court ruling on taxes

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marled
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/25 08:49:37 (permalink)
Cactus Music
It's always been kinda weird for me here sitting 1 mile from the US border. 
If I order something from a US company like Sweetwater  and they ship it to my home address in BC I pay $36-$360  shipping. 
If I have it sent to 1 mile away in Danville Washington I get free shipping.

 
Well, that is a little bit Europe in North America! We have exactly the same things happening with shipping (rarely free in the origin country), except that our countries are much smaller and borders are everywhere! Also many shops have even 2 different shipping fees for the other EU contries and sometimes they even do not send items to Sweden (that's EU)!
 
When I order something from Germany I pay a lot for shipping, but if I send it back I pay about 150% for the same thing with the same carrier, strange! (I am talking about orders from private persons or small shops that do not subsidize shipping).
 
Marc

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#31
JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/25 14:39:42 (permalink)
dmbaer
 
But there is a positive aspect to this - and forget music software for a moment and just consider purchase of general goods.  The tax-free days of internet commerce was really bad for local business, the so-called brick-and-mortar sector.  Having everything taxed the same levels the playing a field at least a bit. 
 
I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I rather miss local book stores - they were such a pleasant and peaceful place to hang out.  Tax-free online sales has been one aspect of what has all but killed them.  That's not to say, of course, that I like the idea of paying more taxes - my local sales tax is close to 9% last time I checked.

Seems like everyone has that one friend or relative who will drive across town to buy gas from the station that sells it for $0.002 less per gallon. They'll even do the math in their head and proudly tell you how they end up saving almost $16 a year doing it this way. But most of us don't do that. Most of us buy gas when and where we need it because its convenient. Likewise convenience is far and away the number one reason online sales hold the market share that they do. So saying the tax thing will level the playing field is a tad optimistic IMO. This is not going to bring back any brick and mortar stores nor will it do much to save any that are currently dying due to online competition. All this is going to do is give the states more tax revenue.
 
Now the optimist could argue that the states will do good things for the public with that additional revenue instead of funneling it into useless programs that only make wealthy well-connected friends of politicians even wealthier, but I'm not much of an optimist.

 
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#32
tlw
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/25 15:07:26 (permalink)
marled
It was not my attempt to say that the status before the EU was better (at least concerning trade). I just like to compare it to the U.S. and there it is really inferior for customers and small business, too many rules and taxes! The main advantage of the EU is for big business, just see shipping prices as example. There is not many folks in the EU buying things in other countries and this proves its benefit for simple people.


Shipping costs are largely related to the volume of business - economy of scale.

I guess you’re Swedish? If so you might be unaware of the UK’s network of small engineering businesses that supply parts and machinery and carry out sub-contract work for large companies across much of the EU, especially in the motor and aerospace industry. To give one of many examples.

And lots of individuals buy things from companies based in other EU member states or that are shipped from another member state. Much of what Amazon sells is now stored in warehouses across Europe, and can usually be delivered from e.g. Germany into e.g. the UK in 24-48 hours. Not without the customs union and single market they couldn’t.

That’s a large business, but I know quite a few musicians, artists, artisans and others who pretty much self-promote and sell their stuff across the EU.

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#33
abacab
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/25 19:33:51 (permalink)
This is a very interesting perspective on the ruling, written by a small business owner who may be adversely impacted...
 
Did The Supreme Court Potentially Bankrupt Tens Of Thousands Of Small Online Businesses?
https://seekingalpha.com/...mall-online-businesses

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#34
dmbaer
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/25 23:42:04 (permalink)
JohanSebatianGremlin
Likewise convenience is far and away the number one reason online sales hold the market share that they do. So saying the tax thing will level the playing field is a tad optimistic IMO. This is not going to bring back any brick and mortar stores nor will it do much to save any that are currently dying due to online competition. All this is going to do is give the states more tax revenue.



I never said it would bring back brick and mortar commerce, just that it would level the playing field a bit.  When you purchase a $200 item and you realize you'll pay 18 bucks more if you buy it at a local store courtesy of sales taxes, plus you may well have to pay additional shipping costs, then it makes the online purchase more attractive.  But I am not suggesting this will change the inevitable.
 
By the way, it's not so much state tax revenue, at least here in CA.  A great deal of sales tax results in local revenue that funds things like fire departments and city road maintenance.  I'm not adverse to paying my fair share when it comes to things like that.  But I do want it to be a fair share, and imposing sales taxes for on-line goods is one way to make things equitable across the board, IMO.  Still, I'll probably prefer to buy the online goods as long as the no-tax incentive remains in place.
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abacab
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/25 23:57:29 (permalink)
Another question I have, is will this have less of an impact on companies operating outside of the USA?
 
For example, say I'm in the USA and make a purchase from a company in the EU.  What legal recourse will my state have over a company in Germany that sells me something online?

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#36
BobF
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/26 00:36:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2018/06/26 00:55:14
abacab
Another question I have, is will this have less of an impact on companies operating outside of the USA?
 
For example, say I'm in the USA and make a purchase from a company in the EU.  What legal recourse will my state have over a company in Germany that sells me something online?




Great question!
 
Opportunity for off-shore resellers for sure

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#37
Jesse G
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/26 03:40:43 (permalink)
Geeeeeezz, I don't want to shop on the Internet any more.

Peace,
Jesse G. A fisher of men  <><
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azslow3
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/26 07:16:57 (permalink)
Two comments:
* many US software re-sellers simply ignore international rules, f.e. they sell without VAT to EU. I mean existing rules do not mean everyone use them.
* Internet is funny in that respect. At the moment I am sitting at place where WLAN you select influence "where you are": with one WLAN I am in "EU" (France), with another I am in Switzerland (not EU). So most on-line shops are "sensitive"   to my WLAN. Add to that VPN into Germany I periodically switch on

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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/26 19:03:20 (permalink)
abacab
Another question I have, is will this have less of an impact on companies operating outside of the USA?
 
For example, say I'm in the USA and make a purchase from a company in the EU.  What legal recourse will my state have over a company in Germany that sells me something online?


Well everything coming in has to clear customs and I believe the shipper has to declare the value of the item in the shipping documents. Customs already holds items in cases where tariffs need to be collected or sometimes they release the item to the post office who collects the tariff before handing the package over. I see no reason why the same couldn't be done for state sales tax. Especially if customs and/or the post office was allowed to tack a processing fee on top for themselves.

 
If gear was the determining factor, we would all have a shelf full of Grammies and a pocket full of change.  -microapp
 
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#40
abacab
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/26 19:32:57 (permalink)
JohanSebatianGremlin
abacab
Another question I have, is will this have less of an impact on companies operating outside of the USA?
 
For example, say I'm in the USA and make a purchase from a company in the EU.  What legal recourse will my state have over a company in Germany that sells me something online?


Well everything coming in has to clear customs and I believe the shipper has to declare the value of the item in the shipping documents. Customs already holds items in cases where tariffs need to be collected or sometimes they release the item to the post office who collects the tariff before handing the package over. I see no reason why the same couldn't be done for state sales tax. Especially if customs and/or the post office was allowed to tack a processing fee on top for themselves.




Last time I checked there was no US Customs inspection for my downloaded bits from the EU.  In any case, most of the small plugin shops don't ship any hardware. 
 
Hardware manufacturers and music equipment retailers may be a different story, as to the point you have made.
 
Maybe I wasn't entirely clear in my post that I was referring to software only (in other words why would I be ordering hardware from overseas + international shipping costs?). 

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#41
JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/26 20:12:29 (permalink)
abacab
 
Maybe I wasn't entirely clear in my post that I was referring to software only (in other words why would I be ordering hardware from overseas + international shipping costs?). 


Why wouldn't you? I get things shipped in all the time. Some things are only available from overseas suppliers. But yeah fair point about purely electronic/digital transactions. I can't imagine any practical way to monitor/enforce those sorts of transactions with off-shore vendors.

 
If gear was the determining factor, we would all have a shelf full of Grammies and a pocket full of change.  -microapp
 
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#42
abacab
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/27 01:08:44 (permalink)
JohanSebatianGremlin

Why wouldn't you? I get things shipped in all the time. Some things are only available from overseas suppliers.




Yup, I can imagine we are rather spoiled here in the states, regarding international manufacturers.  I cannot think of any that do not have a domestic distributor for their product.  If you cannot find it at Guitar Center, Sam Ash, or Sweetwater, it probably doesn't exist, LOL!

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#43
JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/27 23:40:33 (permalink)
abacabI cannot think of any that do not have a domestic distributor for their product.  If you cannot find it at Guitar Center, Sam Ash, or Sweetwater, it probably doesn't exist, LOL!

Yeah, no. Try to find a US based source for a Sonar overlay for a Mackie Control. You won't. If you want to buy one today, you're importing it from Germany. Period. 



 
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#44
DaveClark
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/28 22:13:20 (permalink)
abacab
2. Use an ecommerce and payments provider to facilitate all sales transactions in the USA, such as Digital River or Amazon, or something like that.  There are probably a few that cater to small businesses.  This is probably the safest solution, but one that might put a dent in the profits or survival of those barely staying afloat.



Amazon --- sorry, but not really much help at all (emphasis added below) unless there is some other service available that I missed suggested by item ii) immediately below.  Is there actually such a service for ALL jurisdictions?
 
"Tax policies

"As between the parties, you will be responsible for the collection and payment of any and all of Your Taxes, except to the extent that (i) Amazon automatically calculates, collects, or remits taxes on your behalf according to applicable law (Washington, Pennsylvania, and Oklahoma ONLY - DC)  (for more information, see Marketplace Tax Collection FAQ); or (ii) Amazon expressly agrees to receive taxes or other transaction-based charges on your behalf in connection with tax calculation services made available by Amazon and used by you. Any and all fees payable by you pursuant to this Agreement are exclusive of all sales, use, and similar taxes, and you will pay any taxes that are imposed and payable on such amounts. All payments made by you to Amazon under this Agreement will be made free and clear of any deduction or withholding (including but not limited to cross-border withholding taxes), as may be required by law. If any such deduction or withholding is required on any payment, you will pay such additional amounts as are necessary so that the net amount received by Amazon is equal to the amount then due and payable under this Agreement.

"Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement (Washington, Pennsylvania, and Oklahoma ONLY - DC), you agree that Amazon is not obligated to determine whether taxes apply, and Amazon is not responsible to collect, report, or remit any taxes arising from any transaction.  However, if a taxing authority requires us to pay any of your taxes, you will promptly reimburse us for the amounts paid. If the product is shipped from outside your elected country, the recipient of the product may be required to pay, upon delivery, an amount related to assessed sales, goods and services, use, excise, import, value added, or other taxes or duties. Such taxes or duties, if any, are in addition to the sales proceeds collected by Amazon."


Source:
 
https://sellercentral.ama...820&language=en_US
 
https://sellercentral.ama...T2M58CP_cont_200405820
 
Regards,
Dave Clark
 
PS: In looking at this a bit more, it appears that Amazon is, upon request, able to calculate and collect sales and use taxes for states and provinces and remit those amounts to the vendor to pay and report, provided that the vendor sets everything up themselves. This is still not much help.  The vendor still must register in each state and province, set all the rates, and must still pay and report the taxes collected for each state and province.  It's not really any different than Shopify and WooCommerce.
#45
Rbh
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/28 23:25:08 (permalink)
What about us private sellers? Reverb and E-Bay may need to distinguish between sellers like me who are truly using their service like a garage sale add. Then there are those who operate like a pawn shop who do charge taxes at their brick and mortar establishments but not on their online sales - And then there are other true commercial sellers who use reverb and E-bay simply because of customer exposure and are operating tax free. One thing for sure - this is way beyond the current crop of simpletons in charge - there may be a need of actual critical thinking. Good luck on that. This is going to come down to strict definitions between sellers selling their own personal goods and those who are buying and re-selling strictly for the profit. It may distinguish between a true bid system or make an offer system like Reverb uses.

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#46
BobF
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/28 23:48:58 (permalink)
There is no way to discuss details at this point.  SCOTUS has cleared the path for the states, but the states now need to craft and enact (pass) their own actual legislation to make this into something we can talk about.
 
Until then it's all speculation

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#47
bwbalint
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/29 01:14:23 (permalink)
there probably will be a 'safe harbor' where those under a certain amount will be exempt.  But 'safe harbors' this year are next years felonies!
 
 

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#48
pwalpwal
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/29 06:54:41 (permalink)
BobF  SCOTUS

i read that as "SCROTUS"

just a sec

#49
jude77
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/29 16:05:33 (permalink)
dmbaer
bitflipper
This is exactly what will happen. You'll subscribe to a service that provides the tax calculation based on the customer's address. For an additional fee, they'll also handle annual disbursement. More middle-men to take a slice of your profit. More "financial sector" hands in your pocket.



But there is a positive aspect to this - and forget music software for a moment and just consider purchase of general goods.  The tax-free days of internet commerce was really bad for local business, the so-called brick-and-mortar sector.  Having everything taxed the same levels the playing a field at least a bit. 
 
I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I rather miss local book stores - they were such a pleasant and peaceful place to hang out.  Tax-free online sales has been one aspect of what has all but killed them.  That's not to say, of course, that I like the idea of paying more taxes - my local sales tax is close to 9% last time I checked.


Actually, I'm with you.  You gotta remember that local taxes pay for police, fire department, roads, schools etc.

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#50
Cactus Music
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/29 23:11:06 (permalink)
Just bought a bunch of stuff from this pretty cool distributor they have all sorts of goodies for the studio and live performance,, cheap. Mike cables for $6-$8 medium quality big thumbs up, Guitar tuner for $3. etc
Parts Express
725 Pleasant Valley Dr.
Springboro, OH 45066 USA
https://www.parts-express.com/promo/clearance_center_factory_buyouts   
 
Anyhow, I had it shipped to the US side. Just looking at the invoice all I paid was the price of each item. No taxes. I picked it up and coming back into Canada they looked at the invoice and sent me on my way. So no shipping, duty or Taxes,, US or Canadian were charged. 
 
Check out these Class D amps. 
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dta-120-class-t-mini-amplifier-60-wpc--300-3800
 
 
I waiting for this to arrive. 
 
In the mean time I just got one of these
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B008Y7S1GG/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_dp_1
 
and it's LOUD and CLEAR goodbye huge clunky class A integrated amps that have all gone south on me after 40 years. So these are a great solution for those of us still using passive speakers for monitors. 

 

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#51
Kamikaze
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/30 01:39:46 (permalink)
I ordered a pair of Guitar Fetish pickups last week. Billing address - Vietnam, Delivery address - California. My Cousin will bring with her to the UK next month, hand over to me, and I will be back in Vietnam at the end of the month.
 
A couple of years back, I ordered a stack of things from Germany to Vietnam, a friend got a handful of small things in the order. I won't d that again, the Vietnam TAX system made it a mess, I ended up just paying his taxes. 

 
#52
mudgel
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/30 07:54:52 (permalink)
I buy lots of electronic components from Chinese companies and I’ve just received a whole slew of emails from the major companies stating that as of July 1 they will have to collect 10% GST (Goods and Services Tax) on behalf of the Australian Tax office and pass it on to them.

That along with the 25% import duTy on Chinese electronics components coming into the US is going to kill my hobby. Not happy.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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