Helpful ReplySupreme Court ruling on taxes

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robbyk
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2018/06/22 16:46:43 (permalink)

Supreme Court ruling on taxes

I wonder how this will affect plugin prices and small boutique companies. Huckabee notes:
 
While it won’t affect major stores such as Amazon and WalMart that already have stores or warehouses in every state and collect sales taxes, it could harm boutique web companies and small independent businesses or individual sellers who make much of their money via the Internet by imposing an impossible burden of figuring out, filing and paying not only state but county and city taxes on every sale in virtually every state. It also opens the door to American companies having to comply with whatever tax and regulatory burdens are imposed by overseas organizations such as the EU...
 
I hope all is well for Hornet, etc...

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2:43AM
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/22 18:11:03 (permalink)
It can harm everything. Cuts to Big Corp. Increased taxes to the consumer.

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robbyk
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/22 18:47:58 (permalink)
2:43AM
It can harm everything. Cuts to Big Corp. Increased taxes to the consumer.


Yup everything gets passed onto the consumer, for sure, but I worry about the little vintage plugin boutiques, they want to code and sell, not worry about taxes and accounting, just like I want to make music, not worry about Cortana's latest fashion statement...I hope they can stay in business...

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cclarry
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/22 20:27:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2018/06/23 00:17:55
Buy NOW...save money!  LOL


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2:43AM
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/22 21:08:12 (permalink)
I just got an email from eBay asking me to sign their petition against it.  I'm going to do it since I think eBay knows what it's doing as far as a valid submittal and pleading a good case.  Usually, I'm against eBay's policies, but this I can agree with.  I better read the fine print though!
 
If anyone else is interested, then check it out here: https://www.ebaymainstree...rnet-sales-tax-sellers

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#5
Fog
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 03:14:53 (permalink)
certain companies are as well known for their tax dealings.. as they are a brand.. which they license out elsewhere for a fee.. etc
 
so in some cases you may think we are getting great deals on things... reality is , we are actually subsiding them when *WE*  pay the correct amount of tax (without any "tax efficient"  schemes)
 
there has been a few programmes on about it here..
 
including a certain person who is supposed to be using a private jet exclusively for business trips.. yet can't posting on social media it's being used for holidays also..
 
1 rule for some, as the saying goes.
 
ebay are a bit "rich" .. considering they are adding a tax on p&p here.. and doing NOTHING for it.  how / who I use to post it is NOTHING to do with them.. if they want to stand in the post office queue for me, then they should be getting the fee.. but aren't
 
 
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bitflipper
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 04:24:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2018/06/23 15:08:53
I have no idea how they expect to make this work!
 
From a software developer's perspective, taxes are a major PIA. In my own software I've had to code for separate tax laws in 50 states, 10 provinces, and six countries. Some of the rules are really goofy (lookin' at you, Quebec and Florida). 
 
Now small businesses will have to get tax forms and instructions for every locale they do business with. Not just every state/province/country, but the hundreds of taxing districts within them (every city has its own tax rates).
 
They will need to alter their bookkeeping systems to create accounts for hundreds of taxing authorities. They will have to figure out how to calculate the taxes (some locales have a sliding rate schedule depending on the amount of the sale, some have complicated rules about what rate to use and who and what items are subject to them, and a few oddballs have compound taxes).
 
They will have to identify every customer's precise locale to determine which taxes apply, and ask previously-unneeded and intrusive questions - like "do you work for the government?", "are you a member of a native tribe?", "is this for resale, and can you prove you have a business license in your state?".
 
This was not an issue before, because taxes were based on where the retailer was located, not where the customer was. Amazon has always charged me sales tax because I'm local to them, and it has always been the tax rate for their home address in Seattle. Sweetwater does not charge me sales tax because they're in Indiana and I'm not. Now, Sweetwater will have to somehow know what taxes apply here in my hometown, get updated when they change annually, and file returns with the state of Washington. And every other state and province they ship to.
 
Years ago the state of Oregon wanted to collect liquor tax from airplane passengers flying over their state. That idea didn't fly, for obvious reasons.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Kamikaze
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 04:51:25 (permalink)
No wonder I keep meeting American Libertarians

 
#8
soens
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 09:27:57 (permalink)
"Won't Affect Me! My State Is Tax Free!" (for now, anyhow)
 
FWIW, some vendors already charge state sales tax.
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 14:40:27 (permalink)
bitflipper
I have no idea how they expect to make this work!
 
From a software developer's perspective, taxes are a major PIA. In my own software I've had to code for separate tax laws in 50 states, 10 provinces, and six countries. Some of the rules are really goofy (lookin' at you, Quebec and Florida). 
 
Now small businesses will have to get tax forms and instructions for every locale they do business with. Not just every state/province/country, but the hundreds of taxing districts within them (every city has its own tax rates).

Actually they probably won't. Small businesses will hardly have to concern themselves with this at all. Its the big businesses that will have to get busy dealing with the problem. Small businesses don't build and maintain their web shopping carts in house, they use off the shelf third party solutions.
 
It won't fall on the owner of Jethro's Unique Vintage Plugins Inc to solve this. It will fall on Squarespace or Wix or Sitebuilder or whatever other site building/hosting solution he or she uses to solve it for them. Pretty much same with the accounting. Quickbooks will have to build that in to the services they offer. As will all the CPA's of the world.
 
There will likely be a cost for these solutions in addition to the taxes themselves. And those additional costs as well as the taxes will all be passed to the consumer who in the end is the loser in all of this.

 
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robbyk
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 15:15:12 (permalink)
I think Larry's idea is correct, get what you need now, I'm glad I do. But I agree with Bitflipper, a can of worms has been opened...
 
BTW, this is a good funny, we need "funny" in these times :) "Years ago the state of Oregon wanted to collect liquor tax from airplane passengers flying over their state. That idea didn't fly, for obvious reasons."...

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#11
bapu
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 15:17:25 (permalink)
I'm not sure I have enough yet, I better buy some more.
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Michael A.D.
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 17:02:39 (permalink)
Corporations get massive tax breaks.
The rich get massive tax breaks.
Middle class gets to pay more taxes.
This is making America great again (for the rich).
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DaveClark
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 17:04:55 (permalink)
JohanSebatianGremlin
It won't fall on the owner of Jethro's Unique Vintage Plugins Inc to solve this. It will fall on Squarespace or Wix or Sitebuilder or whatever other site building/hosting solution he or she uses to solve it for them. Pretty much same with the accounting. Quickbooks will have to build that in to the services they offer. As will all the CPA's of the world.



It doesn't work that way now, even though it could have been set up about twenty years ago when accountants began discussing this situation, and which many believed was inevitable.  The ecommerce sites currently require the business owner to set up all the tax rules for their site, collect such taxes, and report them.  IMO that will continue for the most part for the following reasons:
 
1) "We recommend consulting with a tax professional or an accountant on what may be your best options, plus any applicable laws to your state, country or business. Each business is unique, and there’s no way we can cover millions of possibilities."  (woocommerce site, emphasis added)
 
2) It's not the ecommerce software provider's legal responsibility to calculate, collect, and report taxes for sales that are arranged through the use of their software.
 
Regards,
Dave Clark
 
Here are some examples to provide just a glimpse of how complicated it is just to set up taxes at an ecommerce site, that is not including all the research, collecting, and reporting tasks.  The biggest task for many business owners is to enter each region and its rule set. 
 
https://docs.woocommerce.com/document/setting-up-taxes-in-woocommerce/
 
https://help.shopify.com/manual/taxes
 
 
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 17:05:45 (permalink)
Michael A.D.
This is making America great again (for the rich).


The rich are the only ones who matter. Been that way forever.

 
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 17:13:54 (permalink)
DaveClark
JohanSebatianGremlin
It won't fall on the owner of Jethro's Unique Vintage Plugins Inc to solve this. It will fall on Squarespace or Wix or Sitebuilder or whatever other site building/hosting solution he or she uses to solve it for them. Pretty much same with the accounting. Quickbooks will have to build that in to the services they offer. As will all the CPA's of the world.



It doesn't work that way now, even though it could have been set up about twenty years ago when accountants began discussing this situation, and which many believed was inevitable.  The ecommerce sites currently require the business owner to set up all the tax rules for their site, collect such taxes, and report them.  IMO that will continue for the most part for the following reasons:
 
1) "We recommend consulting with a tax professional or an accountant on what may be your best options, plus any applicable laws to your state, country or business. Each business is unique, and there’s no way we can cover millions of possibilities."  (woocommerce site, emphasis added)
 
2) It's not the ecommerce software provider's legal responsibility to calculate, collect, and report taxes for sales that are arranged through the use of their software.
 
Regards,
Dave Clark
 
Here are some examples to provide just a glimpse of how complicated it is just to set up taxes at an ecommerce site, that is not including all the research, collecting, and reporting tasks.  The biggest task for many business owners is to enter each region and its rule set. 
 
https://docs.woocommerce.com/document/setting-up-taxes-in-woocommerce/
 
https://help.shopify.com/manual/taxes
 
 


None of that negates what I said. If anything, it reinforces what I said. The taxes are going to be hard. No small business is going to want to deal with it or figure it out. Therefore the web provider that figures out how to make collecting and paying the taxes correctly easy for the small business owner is the one that will attract more small business owners. They're not legally required to do so, they're not legally required to do much of anything. Will the small business still be required to know what boxes to tick during the setup process? Maybe. And if so, that's where the business owners CPA will come in. Which I believe is more or less exactly what I said above. Small business owners don't want to do have to learn and know this sort of thing which is why they hire others to do it for them. Same as it ever was.
 
The founder of the company I work for once told me 'I don't know squat about building spreadsheets. Which is why I have people for that.'

 
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#16
abacab
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 20:07:40 (permalink)
I can see this going either one of two ways for the small boutique shops that sell direct.
 
1. If the customer's billing address is in a state that is enforcing state sales tax collection for internet sales, they could refuse to do business in that state.  Problem solved.  Sort of. 
 
2. Use an ecommerce and payments provider to facilitate all sales transactions in the USA, such as Digital River or Amazon, or something like that.  There are probably a few that cater to small businesses.  This is probably the safest solution, but one that might put a dent in the profits or survival of those barely staying afloat.

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#17
marled
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 20:22:18 (permalink)
It is very sad that the U.S. begin to make the same sh.. like Europe! In the EU there has never been a real chance for small business to trade in other countries. It is too extensive to handle all the tax and business rules and even other currencies and languages for companies with less than 50 or 100 employees. Especially for internet sellers there are a lot of rules that strengthen the market positions of the big trusts.
And the last bad decision was to tax according to the buyer's location, because this is absolutely a no go for small business here. Accounting, paying services, taxes, transportation, etc. everything is already very irksome and expensive for small companies in the EU. The last time I heard and read about a lot of people going out of business here. It is not profitable anymore.
 
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#18
tlw
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/23 23:52:10 (permalink)
Hm.

Let’s see. The EU means a single market and customs union, many countries sharing the same currency and an integrated on-line purchase tax system.

You really think it was easier trading between European countries when you had to deal with nearly 30 different currencies, every country had its own different customs systems and there were nearly 30 different tax, duties and tariff regimes?

Not according to most people whose businesses sell and buy across the EU it wasn’t.

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DaveClark
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/24 00:13:28 (permalink)
JohanSebatianGremlin
None of that negates what I said. If anything, it reinforces what I said.



Without additional unwarranted assumptions, what I wrote does NOT reinforce what you claimed.  It doesn't necessariy negate it either, but it's not very hopeful IMO given twenty years of neglect.  I expect an increase in the number of bookkeepers and CPAs and their workload long before usable and inexpensive software becomes widespread.
 
Regards,
Dave Clark
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marled
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/24 09:01:34 (permalink)
tlw
Hm.

Let’s see. The EU means a single market and customs union, many countries sharing the same currency and an integrated on-line purchase tax system.

You really think it was easier trading between European countries when you had to deal with nearly 30 different currencies, every country had its own different customs systems and there were nearly 30 different tax, duties and tariff regimes?

Not according to most people whose businesses sell and buy across the EU it wasn’t.



It was not my attempt to say that the status before the EU was better (at least concerning trade). I just like to compare it to the U.S. and there it is really inferior for customers and small business, too many rules and taxes! The main advantage of the EU is for big business, just see shipping prices as example. There is not many folks in the EU buying things in other countries and this proves its benefit for simple people.

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#21
pwalpwal
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/24 10:29:36 (permalink)
List of of imports from the US which will be imposition of additional duties - tradoc_156909.pdf
http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2018/may/tradoc_156909.pdf

just a sec

#22
gswitz
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/24 11:35:03 (permalink)
I'm hoping it works out.
 
Justice is such a complicated thing to arrange.
 
I believe in the importance of taxes, though not all of the ways we as a group prioritize spending them. I'm one of those unusual people who believes that the price of peace is worth paying, even if you aren't sure if you have to pay for it.
 
As an aside, are you aware of the sustainable development goals just ratified?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Development_Goals
http://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/
https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/takeaction/
 
Sometimes there are things worth doing.

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bitflipper
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/24 15:52:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2018/06/25 19:22:18
abacab
...Use an ecommerce and payments provider to facilitate all sales transactions in the USA, such as Digital River or Amazon, or something like that.  



This is exactly what will happen. You'll subscribe to a service that provides the tax calculation based on the customer's address. For an additional fee, they'll also handle annual disbursement. More middle-men to take a slice of your profit. More "financial sector" hands in your pocket.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#24
bvideo
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/24 16:29:13 (permalink)
Many states with sales tax already require buyers to make up for unpaid sales tax by imposing a "use tax" on untaxed* out-of-state purchases (including online) payable along with state income taxes. Any buyer/taxpayer who does not comply runs a risk of repercussions. For example, a mail-order vendor in one state goes bankrupt or faces some other legal issue and winds up making agreements with nearby states to provide names of customers who made purchases. Those states then come calling...
 
Turbotax e.g. has extensive data entry schemes for individuals to compute use tax owed, even in places that have separate state, county, local, district, and zone sales taxes. There is some burden on the taxpayer to have a record of purchases and taxes already paid, but clearly the software to calculate sales/use tax in disparate districts is not too crazy. Small vendors or ecommerce sites might wind up subscribing to a specialist fourth party middleman for sales tax computations and collections. This does not directly increase the taxes one is required to pay, but reduces by a small fee the amount legally due to the states/districts, while most likely increasing the taxes so collected. If you believe your state or locality is overcollecting, you can still vote 'em out with votes, but not out-of-state purchases.
 
*untaxed -- including cases where the buyer physically purchased something in another state that does not collect its own sales tax.

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#25
marled
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/24 19:20:21 (permalink)
Many of such services demand a monthly fee (the same with a lot of payment services). This is okay if you are selling products in a large quantity. But if you are a really small business, then such tax rules that require additional services make your business unprofitable, it's that easy. And I am sure that some of the (good) plugin providers play in that league! So this helps only the big ones, hence there are less competitors and this is stacked against the consumer (WE).
 
Marc

... many years before ...
#26
BobF
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/24 20:31:33 (permalink)
marled
Many of such services demand a monthly fee (the same with a lot of payment services). This is okay if you are selling products in a large quantity. But if you are a really small business, then such tax rules that require additional services make your business unprofitable, it's that easy. And I am sure that some of the (good) plugin providers play in that league! So this helps only the big ones, hence there are less competitors and this is stacked against the consumer (WE).
 
Marc




The boutiques could sell through an already established retail site instead of selling direct.  Sure, they would have to give up a bit of margin, but it may be less costly than paying transaction/monthly fees and buying aspirin in bulk.

Bob  --
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Illegitimi non carborundum
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#27
dmbaer
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/24 20:52:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jude77 2018/06/29 16:04:25
bitflipper
This is exactly what will happen. You'll subscribe to a service that provides the tax calculation based on the customer's address. For an additional fee, they'll also handle annual disbursement. More middle-men to take a slice of your profit. More "financial sector" hands in your pocket.



But there is a positive aspect to this - and forget music software for a moment and just consider purchase of general goods.  The tax-free days of internet commerce was really bad for local business, the so-called brick-and-mortar sector.  Having everything taxed the same levels the playing a field at least a bit. 
 
I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I rather miss local book stores - they were such a pleasant and peaceful place to hang out.  Tax-free online sales has been one aspect of what has all but killed them.  That's not to say, of course, that I like the idea of paying more taxes - my local sales tax is close to 9% last time I checked.
#28
BobF
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/24 22:59:36 (permalink)
bitflipper
I have no idea how they expect to make this work!
 
From a software developer's perspective, taxes are a major PIA. In my own software I've had to code for separate tax laws in 50 states, 10 provinces, and six countries. Some of the rules are really goofy (lookin' at you, Quebec and Florida). 
 
Now small businesses will have to get tax forms and instructions for every locale they do business with. Not just every state/province/country, but the hundreds of taxing districts within them (every city has its own tax rates).
 
They will need to alter their bookkeeping systems to create accounts for hundreds of taxing authorities. They will have to figure out how to calculate the taxes (some locales have a sliding rate schedule depending on the amount of the sale, some have complicated rules about what rate to use and who and what items are subject to them, and a few oddballs have compound taxes).
 
They will have to identify every customer's precise locale to determine which taxes apply, and ask previously-unneeded and intrusive questions - like "do you work for the government?", "are you a member of a native tribe?", "is this for resale, and can you prove you have a business license in your state?".
 
This was not an issue before, because taxes were based on where the retailer was located, not where the customer was. Amazon has always charged me sales tax because I'm local to them, and it has always been the tax rate for their home address in Seattle. Sweetwater does not charge me sales tax because they're in Indiana and I'm not. Now, Sweetwater will have to somehow know what taxes apply here in my hometown, get updated when they change annually, and file returns with the state of Washington. And every other state and province they ship to.
 
Years ago the state of Oregon wanted to collect liquor tax from airplane passengers flying over their state. That idea didn't fly, for obvious reasons.




Sales Tax Payer ID # with a national Sales Tax Payer database.
 
Speaking of Brick/Mortar ... It's currently common to travel to a neighbor state that doesn't charge a sales tax for purchases.  Will the state of residence now expect to be paid?
 
I think I need a PO Box in a state without sales tax ;)
 

Bob  --
Angels are crying because truth has died ...
Illegitimi non carborundum
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#29
Cactus Music
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Re: Supreme Court ruling on taxes 2018/06/25 02:53:47 (permalink)
It's always been kinda weird for me here sitting 1 mile from the US border. 
If I order something from a US company like Sweetwater  and they ship it to my home address in BC I pay $36-$360  shipping. 
If I have it sent to 1 mile away in Danville Washington I get free shipping.
Then it's hit or miss if the Canada Custom people charge me GST or duty on the item I'm bringing across. Most times if its around $100-$150 they just say "Have a Nice day" and send me through. If I go down for a day trip, I can get away with about $300 worth of groceries etc. They will nail me on bigger electronic items so I buy those here in Canada. 
 
But we are now being told there will be no more of this at all, they will be charging taxes on EVERYTHING. So guess what?  I will just no longer deal with the USA. I won't even be able to go Camping there because they are starting to tear our cars apart. It has now happened to 4 people I know who have been crossing the border for 30 years without issue. Our School sports teams will no longer be able to go across to play against the little rural schools in Curlew and Republic. No more field trips to Silver-wood and Spokane. The customs officers are not to blame and they may choose to ignore these stupid rules. 
 I can still get stuff direct from China free shipping to my door and no taxes. I really truly feel sorry for America. You're majorly being screwed by your government. 

Johnny V  
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#30
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