cpkoch
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Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
I thought synchronizing would be a "snap" using AudioSnap. Maybe it is but I can't seem to get anywhere using it. I've resorted to creating a baseline rhythm against which I adjust on the audio timeline every beat on every track in order to synchronize multiple tracks. It's laborious to say the least. Somehow I can't help but feel that automaton of that process using pattern recognition ought of be a walk in the park. Maybe AudioSnap is the thing that does it, but the lexicon used to describe the processes is at best foreign to me. "Transients ... Markers ... Quantization ... Pool" ... these are all well known terms but they are not useful for simply describing to me how to properly align audio transients automatically. From researching the topic, I may not be alone as I wallow in my perplexity. Is there a good tutorial describing how to Synchronize multiple tracks?
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quantumeffect
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/27 23:44:11
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☄ Helpfulby dubdisciple 2014/10/27 23:37:02
I meticulously exam every single marker before quantizing and then I carefully listen to the result after quantizing before I am satisfied. At least for me it is a mind numbing process but the results are worth it. It is a very powerful tool if used patently and correctly.
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cpkoch
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/27 23:50:58
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I have a lot of trouble trying to find out how to use Markers, Transients, The Pool, Quantization, Gooves, Thresholds, and the rest of the features that are in AudioSnap. Is there a AudioSnap Tutorial for Dummies out there someplace? It's not for me of course !! I have a friend who is interested!
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johnnyV
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/27 23:57:46
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Not sure what your trying to do.. Is this purely audio your dealing with? Of course midi can be quantized, that you probably understand. But Audio needs to be "performed" in the pocket. A DAW can turd polish to a point, but basically with audio it's easier to just play over and over until you get it right. I do a lot more of this than is good for me, But oh well that's just me... If a whole track, every note, is that far off the beat, then your out on a limb for sure. Audio snap seems to be voodoo, but I've used it OK on simple stuff like a kick drum or snare. It makes a mess of guitar tracks etc. Might work on bass, never had to try it I'm a bass player ;) What it really likes is good strong transients. Like a string section is going to be hopeless for sure. What I do with a bit of off time stuff ( not mine) . Is to zoom in to see where it's off the time grid, and use the "split" function. Then I slide the offending note or phrase to where it belongs. Make sure to have a back up of the original. Audio snaps voodoo can make weird sounds I don't like. This method preserves the original audio quality. Make sure you set the Zero crossing thing in editing preferences or??
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johnnyV
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/28 00:05:52
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I will add that I hope your not obsessing over a song where the timing is just a tiny little out for some tracks.. That's what makes it real. Perfectly quantized music might not be a good thing! And if your tracks are sounding out of sync.. you might have driver issues. There is a thread going yacking about that and all the weird latency issues that we deal with. http://forum.cakewalk.com/Is-My-Delay-Compensation-Totally-Borked-m3105432.aspx
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quantumeffect
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/28 00:06:55
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Here is something I posted a couple of years ago that details my experience of crafting a new drum track to a click and then "fitting" it to a drum track that was recorded live using audiosnap. The opposite of what you would normally want to do. http://forum.cakewalk.com/The-Zen-of-Audiosnap-m2536238.aspx The mix of the song is pretty crappy but if you do listen ... listen for the timing of the drums. They were recorded while reading a chart and listening to a metronome (not the music) and then fitted to music that was recorded live without a click.
Dave 8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson "His chops are too righteous." Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo
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cpkoch
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/28 00:28:33
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My needs are simple. My tracks are exclusively audio for now. I download a backing track with just instrumentals. Then, so I may learn how the words and music go together, I download a vocal track of the song. It may have different instrumental accompaniment and even a different rhythm. I want to synchronize the two so that I can work on my own rendition. Getting the in the same key is easy. The other need for synchronization is for multi-track pieces. For any number of reasons (carelessness among them) the tracks, manage to become un-sync'd. Rather than to go through and re-do the parts or go through the pain of adjusting all of the audio transients to a baseline track, I'd like to automatically synchronize them. Surely there must be some algorithm (or a set of them) that would iteratively match a given track's audio transients with those appearing on other (perhaps mulitiple) tracks until the best match is reached. That is basically what I do as I attempt to synchronize tracks. Maybe that is what Audio Snap tries to do, but there is nothing I've found (at least nothing that I understand) that would suggest that's the case.
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johnnyV
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/28 01:19:25
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As I said, Audi snap was made for transient type tracks, a full mix is totally out of the question. What your trying to do by mixing two different completed songs together sounds like a job for some sort of DJ software. I think there's a whole world of audio manipulation people out there, I think they use programs like Tracktor and Abilton Live. Acid?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/28 03:37:37
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cpkoch I thought synchronizing would be a "snap" using AudioSnap. Maybe it is but I can't seem to get anywhere using it. I've resorted to creating a baseline rhythm against which I adjust on the audio timeline every beat on every track in order to synchronize multiple tracks. It's laborious to say the least. Somehow I can't help but feel that automaton of that process using pattern recognition ought of be a walk in the park. Maybe AudioSnap is the thing that does it, but the lexicon used to describe the processes is at best foreign to me. "Transients ... Markers ... Quantization ... Pool" ... these are all well known terms but they are not useful for simply describing to me how to properly align audio transients automatically. From researching the topic, I may not be alone as I wallow in my perplexity. Is there a good tutorial describing how to Synchronize multiple tracks?
I'll leave the "is it any good?" question to others to answer but I covered Audiosnap and how to use it in my SWA Complete Sonar X2 video which I believe is currently available for free viewing on the SWA site. It's a relatively complex part of the program compared to most parts which isn't easy to fully explain in a short forum post. If you take a look at that and have any questions I'll help where I can.
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Loptec
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/28 03:50:17
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For what you're trying to do, maybe Melodyne in percussive mode could be something worth trying? If you end up with a note here and there that you're not happy with, it's very easy to correct them manually. ...Edit: Ah.. Sorry.. Read your post too fast... Thought it was the bass line you were trying to sync to the rest of the tracks, but it was the other way around... :/ However... If the bass line is recorded in time to the project you could still try Melodyne for the other tracks. Just remember to bounce each clips when you're happy with them, since Melodyne can be somewhat heavy on the CPU, when using lots of instances at once.
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mettelus
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/28 08:10:12
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Bitflipper makes a nice (and very accurate) comment in the thread posted in #6 above - "A lot of users get frustrated with AS (and V-Vocal, for similar reasons) because they've been suckered by the marketing hype into assuming it's a one-click automated process. Truth is, these tools are editing aids, not magic processes. They require attention to detail - and a lot of practice - to get good results. [...]" Please realize that AudioSnap is a wonderful toolbox, but understanding what each function does, and "feeding it properly" does require some time investment. Quantumeffect's point about "meticulous" is true, as it gives you back what you tell it to do, so there is little leniency with being complacent using it. Out of curiosity, since you are using backing tracks and recording vocals, would it not be easier for you to first listen to the original recording (such as on YouTube) to get familiar with the track? Karl's (FastBikerBoy) video linked is very good (9 hours of material) and most of it is still applicable to X3. He also has some other tutorials posted which are extremely helpful. @Karl - Has the SWA Complete SONAR X2 been chopped up into chapters for folks buying it? I actually did that on my own when I was learning Adobe Premiere Pro, because the resolution of the playback using the slider with Windows Media Player for 9 hours was troublesome (plus I would forget where I left off without writing it down  ). I remember asking you this before but completely forget what you said now
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FastBikerBoy
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/28 08:38:31
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☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2014/10/28 18:32:50
mettelus Karl's (FastBikerBoy) video linked is very good (9 hours of material) and most of it is still applicable to X3. He also has some other tutorials posted which are extremely helpful.
Thanks. Much appreciated. @Karl - Has the SWA Complete SONAR X2 been chopped up into chapters for folks buying it? I actually did that on my own when I was learning Adobe Premiere Pro, because the resolution of the playback using the slider with Windows Media Player for 9 hours was troublesome (plus I would forget where I left off without writing it down ). I remember asking you this before but completely forget what you said now  I think so but I'm not entirely sure, SWA isn't my site, I author videos for them so I have little control over the end product. I'm sure it was something we'd spoken about and I am fairly certain it was done as well as the resolution improved IIRC. Windows Media Player doesn't seem to read the chapter information very well, VLC is a reasonably good free alternative that can read the chapters for precise location. Chapter detail is available from the link in my signature.
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mettelus
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/28 18:44:58
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Thanks for that feedback... I never even heard of VLC before (yikes). Unfortunately, I tend to rely on the crap garbage programs that Microsoft just gives us (my error).
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Paul P
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/28 21:48:44
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mettelus @Karl - Has the SWA Complete SONAR X2 been chopped up into chapters for folks buying it? I actually did that on my own when I was learning Adobe Premiere Pro, because the resolution of the playback using the slider with Windows Media Player for 9 hours was troublesome (plus I would forget where I left off without writing it down ).
If I remember correctly, when I first bought the video it was one big file and Karl had supplied a link to a chapter list. The video was then broken up into pieces (a bunch of mp4s) and I just downloaded it again from the Cakewalk store and got the separate files the second time around. So if you bought it from Cakewalk, you should just have to download it again. See http://forum.cakewalk.com/SWA-X2-Complete-Tutorial-m2799988.aspx [I see that in this thread I mentioned two links in my account, but today I only see one. I'm not sure what happened with that.] I don't know what the procedure would be from another vendor.
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mettelus
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/10/29 00:36:06
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I just went back into my store account, and originally purchased the SWA Complete SONAR X2 on 10/19/12. I just downloaded that a second time and the new download it is already separated into the 50 chapters (doh!). Since I hijacked this thread, I should get it back on track a bit... 4 chapters of that video set Karl mentioned (~33 minutes) are devoted to using AudioSnap.
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mettelus
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/11/07 07:36:41
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I had one of Bob's "DOH!" moments using AudioSnap this week pulling in an mp3 and synchronizing it to put a soft synth onto it. This is the third time for me now, and proof I am still a fumbling novice with AudioSnap. The step I always seem to miss is when aligning that first beat to a measure, I forget to bounce to clips. After wondering why the pool was "rather odd" skipping this step, I went and reviewed Karl's videos (and this is explicitly stated as an important step about 1/2 way into the second chapter). Third time now, so perhaps I will remember, but the interval between uses makes it easy to forget. Now I am curious of the "mechanics" behind this step? If the BPM is close enough, and that first beat is on a measure (can even "lock" it there with Shift-M), why is this bounce necessary and what exactly is it doing for us?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/11/07 13:39:57
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I don't *know* but I believe any existing transients in the front part of the clip confuse "Audiosnap". I discovered that trick through some (very) frustrating sessions of trial and error with Audiosnap. Remember that when a clip is split or slip edited the underlying clip isn't really affected at all, hence the ability to drag it back out. I believe that the still existing beats cause Audiosnap problems. That's the reason I recommend bouncing to clip first. It has certainly made Audiosnap a lot more reliable for me. The above is of course all personal opinion that seems to make a big difference to success with Audiosnap.
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John
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Re: Synchronizing Multiple Tracks
2014/11/07 13:59:45
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mettelus Thanks for that feedback... I never even heard of VLC before (yikes). Unfortunately, I tend to rely on the crap garbage programs that Microsoft just gives us (my error).
I was KM a player user for awhile. I now use Potplayer. it is as good no better then KM without the ads. VLC is an old standby not as useful. Both KM and PotPlayer give a time line thumbnail for finding the right place. http://potplayer.en.softonic.com/
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