name1432 
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Tape Saturation: Theory
I've read threads about plug ins for simulating tape saturation, and I've tried some of the plug ins Now I'm interested to read any theory about what tape saturation actually does to an audio signal? I suspect it's described in an article somewhere but not one that I've found yet. Thanks
post edited by name1432 - 2005/06/23 04:42:20
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yep
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 09:28:23
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It compresses the signal ands even-order harmonic distortion.
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DonnyAir
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 09:48:17
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I was gonna go into a long disertation regarding the principles and theories of analog tape, voltage, etc... but then I found this link and thought it would be much easier to just paste it-- I haven't had enough coffee yet and I'm lazy-- LOL...also, anything I would write would probably just be a regurgitation of the jist of this article anyway... http://www.ipsologic.com/briefs/tape_saturation.html D.
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DonnyAir
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 09:51:08
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PS.... I haven't found a plug in sim yet that sounds like analog tape does when you whack it hard at +6... have tried many, and might be, AFAIC, the one exception to my opinion that plugs are better than hardware...perhaps it's out there, but I haven't found it.
D.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 10:21:17
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donny - tried this link but doesn't appear to work...
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DonnyAir
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 10:32:24
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wow... LOL..was working a minute ago.. oooookay... well..I'm back and finally got in, but in case the link goes wizzly again, I just copied the info and I'll paste it below:
Tape Saturation
Tape saturation is that particular quality of sound you get when recording sound to tape at a high volume, which you just don't get with digital recording. It's lovely. It has a warmth that people appreciate when making a comparison between the two. But how does it get there? What is behind this property of analog audio tape?
To understand this you need to keep in mind the way that tape works. The recording surface is coated with billions (well, probably trillions) of tiny metallic particles. These are usually either iron oxide or chromium dioxide. These can all be moved by magnetic force. When a magnetic field passes through the record head of the recorder, the strength of the field represents what the soundwave is doing at that precise moment. These particles are caused to shift, just fractionally, by the magnetic field, and their new alignment represents the strength of the magnetic field, and therefore what the soundwave is doing. When it comes to playback, the alignment of the particles determines the strength of the electrical current that the playback head produces, in just the same manner as the movement of an electric guitar string determines the signal that comes from a guitar pickup. The shape and sound of the resulting wave depends on the ongoing change in the pattern of the particles on the tape's surface.
Now, the particles can only be re-aligned by so much. Although you could design a record head capable of delivering thousands of volts to the tape, the tape itself is not going to accept a signal that strong. This is because the stronger the input signal, that is, the higher or lower the soundwave goes, the more it is compromised by the fact that after a certain point (which is known as 0dB), higher energy levels require still higher input to get the same thing to go down on the tape. The wave movement is ****ed by the tape's physical properties. In fact, dramatic peaks and troughs can be clipped, just like when you raise the pre-amp volume on an amplifier to get distortion. The end result is that the wave takes on a more rounded shape at its extreme positive and negative sides. To the listener, this makes a fatter, warmer sound. Very pleasant, but not the same as the original. Trebles get softened and replaced by new ones which were not there to start with. And the stronger the input the greater the effect.
There is a way of mocking up this effect in a digital system. It's a technique called Wave Shaping Synthesis. You can read about it at The Music Page. But normally a digital system handles input overrun either by straight clipping, which gives a slightly harsher form of distortion, or else it does nothing at all. Where nothing is done you get aliasing, where the recorded wave bounces back and forth between negative and positive values, making a really horrible, speaker busting noise that is totally intolerable to listener and engineer alike. Tapes never allow that to happen.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 13:49:54
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ohhey
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 14:23:48
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What plugins are available for this ? Are any of them any good ?
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DonnyAir
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 14:37:17
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What plugins are available for this ? Are any of them any good ? Depends on whom you ask, Frank. Some might say that they are happy with the current plugs available for tape sim.. Chaz, Nprime and myself had this conversation some months back; it was our concensus at the time that there weren't any that really captured the "sound". I've tried a slew of them (lol..no pun intended) and I've yet to find one that really, truly emulates that warmth, that sonic texture. While I've certainly found dozens (or more) that do a great job with verb, compression, DDL, chorus, flange, etc., I haven't found a plug yet that really emulates the tape warmth/saturation thing... not to my liking, anyway. I've found some that were better than others, some not so great, some downright terrible, but even the best falls way short of the real thing, IMO. Of course, you have to consider that I spent 15 years or more on R to R 1/2", 1" and 2" decks running @ 15 and 30ips, so my opinion is most certainly biased... (LOL... that pun wasn't intended either but I'll keep it.) I'm not saying I don't dig digital, it has many, many things I really like (that's for another thread I suppose, I just didn't want you thinking I was slamming digital in general), but tape does indeed have it's own sonic essence, of that I'm sure most would agree. BTW.. I haven't gotten rid of my decks and still do, from time to time, multi track and mix to them, and yes, as far as my ears are concerned, there's a big difference. FWIW D.
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guitarmikeh
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 14:43:07
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donny, if you were forced to choose one or the other tape/digital witch one would it be???
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DonnyAir
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 15:25:22
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donny, if you were forced to choose one or the other tape/digital witch one would it be??? Damn... I knew someone was gonna get around to asking me that sooner or later... Okay... here goes.... if forced to choose.... Tape. But not because I'm "stuck in the past", or for some other similar reason. Actually, I jumped into digital in the mid '90's with both feet, impressed by the convenience, the noise floor, the fact that you don't have to align a PC platform, or relap head stacks, you don't have to actually cut tape with a razor and grease pencil to edit.. (there is no "undo" once you've sliced that tape!), the time available is pretty much limited only to your computer's memory, and not because only so much tape will fit on a reel (on a 2500 ft reel, only about 33 minutes or so running at 15 ips, only 15 or so at 30 ips, ), all those reasons are just some of the many why I went digital... but I've never been able to replicate the sound... I've tried, God knows I've tried, I just can't do it. From a business standpoint, digital is better if only looking at the cost of tape. As I said above, a reel of 456 (or 499, or whatever) running at 15 ips will only give you a little over a half hour of recording time. Man, you could eat that up just doing 5 or 6 takes of one song, and at $100 bucks a reel, well, clients on the lower level freak out at $55.00 per hour of time. Add the tape cost and they hit the roof. Ask me how I know..LOL.. Also, editing is certainly a breeze, like I said, if you're cutting tape and you botch it, yeah, you can fix it, but not as fast as you can by simply hitting "undo" with the click of a mouse. In some ways, digital is wonderful because it has brought possibilities within reach of everyone who wants it, from the solo songwriter, to a 15 piece band, and the quality is, for the most part, very consistant if you know what you're doing. But, the above reasons are also why it's become a hindrance as well... the knowledge that used to accompany recording and it's inherant techniques are slowly dissipating, IMHO. but... I've strayed from the question... it's the sound that I miss...that warmth that you get when you pound your meters to +6 or even +9... and I haven't found a way to get it with digital. But...the benefits outweigh the other... I guess. You can teach an old dog new tricks... but sometimes.. this old dog wants his old bone back  FWIW D.
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ohhey
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 16:07:02
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If money were no object and tape was available I would track on tape and then transfer to the DAW for editing and mixing. That way I get the best of both. In fact it would be cool to sync up the tape to the DAW and track on both so you could choose later what source was best for each track.
I'm producing mixes now that I'm proud of on Sonar and I tried for 15 years or more to mix analog and never did produce a record I though was finished. I don't think it's the tone or sound quality, I'm just not good enough to get the mix right in one shot so I have to have the level of automation I get with the DAW and the ability to wav edit each track in Sound Forge when needed. For the first time I can listen to my recordings without the anxiety of waiting for that part that sounds bad. I can just relax and listen to them like I would any other CD in my collection. My stuff sounds as good as the classic CDs and better then the modern ones.
I think for folks that had enough gear and skill to do good mixes using tape and a analog mixer were not happy having to learn how to get the right sound on a digital system and I can see their point. But for me I never did master the old school way and was not happy with it so digital was a good thing to me. Again not some much for the sound but just for the control.
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yep
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 16:19:01
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ORIGINAL: ohhey
If money were no object and tape was available I would track on tape and then transfer to the DAW for editing and mixing. That way I get the best of both.
Me too. If I never have to look at a splicing block again it'll be soon enough. Tape does sound better, but so do a lot of things that are not practical for me right now. Cheers.
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DonnyAir
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 16:51:08
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I'm just not good enough to get the mix right in one shot so I have to have the level of automation And, to be fair, I wouldn't have had as much success as I did if I hadn't had automation. I was always fortunate enough, even with analog tape, to be working on a console with automation. Some were very simple forms (mutes and switches) others were full blown with complete recall and programability of every function; faders, switches, mutes, EQ, dynamics, effects, heck...even headphone sends. About the only thing that wasn't automated or recallable was the input gain pot. So, I would agree with Frank in that if I had had to do all those mixes by hand, well.. God...some of them I simply couldn't have done.
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kylen
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 19:11:51
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ORIGINAL: ohhey
What plugins are available for this ? Are any of them any good ?
Is this a good time for a Tape Saturation plugin shootout? I have a few and found that I like the old Cakewalk Tape Sim plug a lot right now...other choices I have come from PSP, Voxengo, T-Racks (their MB limiter does a pretty good job) and a few other I guess. Currently Tapesim is the top of the heap...how much it sounds like a great tape machine I couldn't say - the answer probably is not too close!
post edited by kylen - 2005/06/23 19:14:26
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name1432
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 20:05:26
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fwiw searching the forums for "saturation" turns up a number of plug ins for that purpose DonnyAir, I have no experience with analog equipment but I understand why you'd want the convenience of digital with the option of emulating analog. I'll never call digital 'better' than tape until digital can fool every single listener into thinking it was mixed on analog equipment. Possibly digital algorithms for emulating tape exists but aren't yet efficient enough work in realtime, so unfit for plug ins. Or maybe a good digital algorithm exists but hasnt yet been discovered. If all goes well, eventually we may have it all in digital, but not yet imho I see how the physics of tape causes a compression effect, so if programmers who write good digital compressors can't write a good digital saturator, maybe there's more to tape saturation than just compression. If I decide to research it further I'll start reading about the physics of tape recorders.... Thanks for the info everyone
post edited by name1432 - 2005/06/23 20:09:19
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DonnyAir
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 20:12:13
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Currently Tapesim is the top of the heap...how much it sounds like a great tape machine I couldn't say - If you had ever had the chance to work with a great R to R, there wouldn't be much doubt. But, I need to state here that there were plenty of "consumer" type reel decks that were not as good, some of the early Fostex and even lower level Tascam stuff had such limitations internally that they weren't all that great...so..just because a deck is a reel to reel format doesn't automatically dictate that you'll get that big, warm fat sound. Tape width, speed, headstack configuration and bias-alignment controls all had a part to play. Most pro decks (Upper level Tascams, Studers, MCI's, Ampex, Nagra's, Sony's etc., ) all let the operator re-align their decks to coincide with what they wanted to do, where most of the lower level decks didn't allow much "tweaking" beyond basic meter calibration, and slight bias adjustment..but chances were you were never going to be able to re-align a Fostex B16 to +6 or +9. For awhile there, some of the budget machines that were coming out offered 16 and even 24 tracks for pretty reasonable prices, but they generally cut corners, so you were finding alot of 8 track on 1/4" format, 16 on 1/2", etc.. all at 15ips, which deviated a bit from the "pro" standard. Then again, not everyone could afford to drop 10, 20, even 50 grand on a 24 track-2 inch deck running at 30 ips...add noise reduction cards and the price could easily reach 75 large at the time. I think digital is certainly more bang for the buck, less maintenance across the board and enables us to do much more. If one of the plug in manufacturers ever does come up with that one "magical" sim that captures the essence of tape (and IMHO Cakewalk's Tape Sim doesn't even come close), it'll be a great day! FWIW D. PS..sorry about the history lesson, sometimes I get carried away...
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DonnyAir
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 20:23:08
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maybe there's more to tape saturation than just compression There is Name.. there is... it's not just the tape compression/saturation thing you're hearing, it's the way the flux handles the frequencies and harmonics as well... which is why a cymbal crash recorded digitally can sound "brittle" or "harsh", where as on a good analog deck it's sounds "sparkly" or "silky"...and not just cymbals either.. vocals, guitars, the whole shabang. Do your own thinking, your own research... ya might come to the conclusion that Donny's as bug**** nuts as a loon...LOL, but... I'm always a strong proponent for research and knowledge improvement. I learn new things everday and I've been at this game quite a while now.. the truth is I LOVE to learn new stuff. Researching this topic probably won't affect your ability or talent regarding your present recording methods...but who knows? It beats watching old reruns on TV... LOL...maybe some day the world will turn again and analog will be the next new/old thing... D.
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Carl Jensen
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 20:36:10
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If one of the plug in manufacturers ever does come up with that one "magical" sim that captures the essence of tape (and IMHO Cakewalk's Tape Sim doesn't even come close), it'll be a great day! Here is a great thread about this exact topic on Gearslutz. It includes audio examples of actual tape machines as well as various plugins to emulate them: Bliss of Drums on Tape => Audio Examples Not all of the audio examples are posted anymore, but enough to make it interesting.
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name1432
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 20:38:31
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ORIGINAL: DonnyAir
Researching this topic probably won't affect your ability or talent regarding your present recording methods...but who knows? It beats watching old reruns on TV...
digital modelling of instruments, amps, tubes, and rooms is not too bad these days, no reason tape recorders should be left out
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ohhey
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 21:02:42
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ORIGINAL: DonnyAir
Currently Tapesim is the top of the heap...how much it sounds like a great tape machine I couldn't say -
If you had ever had the chance to work with a great R to R, there wouldn't be much doubt. But, I need to state here that there were plenty of "consumer" type reel decks that were not as good, some of the early Fostex and even lower level Tascam stuff had such limitations internally that they weren't all that great...so..just because a deck is a reel to reel format doesn't automatically dictate that you'll get that big, warm fat sound.
Tape width, speed, headstack configuration and bias-alignment controls all had a part to play.
Most pro decks (Upper level Tascams, Studers, MCI's, Ampex, Nagra's, Sony's etc., ) all let the operator re-align their decks to coincide with what they wanted to do, where most of the lower level decks didn't allow much "tweaking" beyond basic meter calibration, and slight bias adjustment..but chances were you were never going to be able to re-align a Fostex B16 to +6 or +9.
For awhile there, some of the budget machines that were coming out offered 16 and even 24 tracks for pretty reasonable prices, but they generally cut corners, so you were finding alot of 8 track on 1/4" format, 16 on 1/2", etc.. all at 15ips, which deviated a bit from the "pro" standard. Then again, not everyone could afford to drop 10, 20, even 50 grand on a 24 track-2 inch deck running at 30 ips...add noise reduction cards and the price could easily reach 75 large at the time.
I think digital is certainly more bang for the buck, less maintenance across the board and enables us to do much more. If one of the plug in manufacturers ever does come up with that one "magical" sim that captures the essence of tape (and IMHO Cakewalk's Tape Sim doesn't even come close), it'll be a great day!
FWIW
D.
PS..sorry about the history lesson, sometimes I get carried away...
The problem might be finding tape a fair price. It said in MIX when they did the score for the new Star Wars movie it was the first time they didn't run analog tape as the archive copy because even at Abby Road they couldn't get enough tape to finish the job.
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kylen
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 21:14:42
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That was a fun thread Carl - I'd seen bits and pieces of it before - very cool to see what those guys try out. Donny - I like your thoughts on the topic - I'm a garage/home recording/semi-pro type guy and have been for a while now and I just keep things at consumer level usually. Tape decks have just been 7 1/2 or 15 ips 1/4" consumer so I've never heard a great deck. But the consumer models have their own character and smeary stuff happening that I liked. So at the digital consumer level I'm trying to get the Vogengo Tapebus to sound good (a little scratchy for me with my settings), but right now I'm working with the Cakewalk plug I mentioned. It seems like the dsp guys have various ways of dealing with the peaks and stuff - some sound scratchier than others but there is nothing like pushing into [even a consumer] tape and getting that sheen . Let's not forget the noise and junk on the consumer decks too though, argh!@#! I've been working with thw WaveArts dynamics plugins lately and I like the sound I get when I push into those (using a light ratio and low threshold to get the body) the way I like - so maybe a little WA TrackPlug compression and a little Tape Sim distortion and even a little from the Voxengo Analog Tapebus might just make for a nice gooey mess! Then I could back everything off to a simple smear...without flattening out the essence . Crosstalk though...hmmm, whats a good plugin to get that? I think there's one in the Voxengo suite. Thanks for the Tape Saturation theory you all!
post edited by kylen - 2005/06/23 21:20:03
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DonnyAir
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 21:27:07
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The problem might be finding tape a fair price. It said in MIX when they did the score for the new Star Wars movie it was the first time they didn't run analog tape as the archive copy because even at Abby Road they couldn't get enough tape to finish the job. I have no doubt as to the truth of this statement, Frank. It is getting harder to find, and when you can, it's expensive; heck, as late as 1998 (about the last year I actually threaded a new reel onto a deck for a commercial session) 1/2" was around $60, 1" was around $100, and 2" was between $150-$200 for a 2500 ft Reel. I can't imagine what it would run now, you know what they say, supply and demand! I don't know...maybe it can still be purchased..I'll have to Google that sometime; but I believe the days of running down to your local music store and picking up a reel are long gone... I have a closet full of 1" and 1/2" tape (456 and 499), and a few reels of 2", some virgin, some slightly used, I've never been able to bring myself to sell it. I always kept it around in case tape goes the way of the Dodo bird for good.... although my wife would sure like me to get it out of our closet....LOL.  D.
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yep
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 21:59:24
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Yeah, what Donny and Ohhey said.
If your only experience with analog tape is from cassettes, then it's hard to describe what a good tape recording can sound like-- warm, crisp, punchy, lively, clean, shimmery, silky, smooth, full-bodied-- none of that does it justice. Tape compression is the the smoothest, most natural and musical way to fill out a sound that man has yet invented, and whatever any digital meter may tell you about digital fidelity, a high-quality tape recording sounds more real, more alive, and more convincing than anything digital that I've ever heard, but with hiss.
Having said all that, all of the significant manufacturers of tape are now out of business and digital can get you 90% of the way there with 10% of the work and about 5% of the expense. Tape will be around for a long time, but it will be more and more a specialized item. Simultaneously, digital will continue to improve in leaps and bounds. Someday, when we're all recording at 32-bit 192kHz with extremely stable clocks, tape will almost certainly become genuinely obsolete, except for "old" sounds. But we're not there yet, and digital's expanded dynamic range and supposed superior fidelity doesn't make up for its jitter, grainyness, and harshness (bear in mind that the only way to measure digital fidelity is digitally--which is like saying that my ruler is more accurate because my ruler says so).
CDs are far better than cassettes, and the average CD on the average CD player is better than most vinyl records on most record players, but usually, for most listeners, I think that 9 times out of 10, a really good analog recording will sound not only "better," but also more "real" than a really good digital recording.
Just my $.02
Cheers.
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name1432
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 22:21:56
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until now, i'd been assuming that if a producer 1. recorded and/or mixed on high-end tape, to achieve the unique tape sound 2. transfered the result onto CD ... i'd been assuming that the CD would (and does often in practice) convey the tape quality that people hear. Or can't the unique sound of tape be conveyed by CD to a listener?
post edited by name1432 - 2005/06/23 22:25:49
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yep
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 22:40:22
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ORIGINAL: name1432
...Or can't the unique sound of tape be conveyed by CD to a listener?
The CD will sound better than a cassette, but not as good as listening to the original reel-to-reel tape. Whether the CD will sound better than a fresh vinyl record on an audiophile-quality record player is a matter of opinion, but I think it's safe to say that most people who are really into sound quality and who have the money to spend on really high-end systems would rather hear a record than hear the CD. Cheers.
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DonnyAir
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 22:44:36
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until now, i'd been assuming that if a producer
1. recorded and/or mixed on high-end tape, to achieve the unique tape sound
2. transfered the result onto CD
... i'd been assuming that the CD would (and does often in practice) convey the tape quality that people hear.
Or can't the unique sound of tape be conveyed by CD to a listener LOL ...wellllll.............. that's a matter of conjecture... The fact is, we live in a CD world audio wise. Very few of us have cassettes anymore, let alone own a cassette deck! For awhile, back in those heady days of the '70's, reel to reel manufacturers did do well in selling "pro-sumer" grade reel machines to a home market. Panasonic, Teac, Sony, Akai, Dokorder, all sold machines that one could play a 1/4", 7 1/2 ips tape on; and for a time, you could even buy commercial releases (yes..album cover and all..I distinctly recall Dark Side Of The Moon on commercially available Reel tape!) The theory was, that vinyl was of course, too fragile, eight track cartridge was... well.... no one was all that crazy about hearing their favorite guitar solo come up in their favorite song and have the side click over to "program 3" right in the middle of a song...or for those of us old enough to remember, having to stick a match book up under the tape so that you wouldn't hear two "sides" playing at once...LOL...not a very scientific form of "alignment". And cassettes, because of their tape width and speed ( 1 + 7/8 ips , 1/8 inch tape, pretty limited) didn't deliver the goods either, so, the record companies marketed commercial reel to reel tapes/albums as "the next best thing to having the studio master!!" And, it was good, it sounded okay, but it wasn't like listening to the studio master. There was still a generational loss that was inherant in analog tape; every time you made a copy or a "generation", you added noise and degraded the signal Like it or not, CD seems to be the standard that we all listen to, and, as Yep mentioned, as digital keeps growing and improving with better sampling rates, resolutions, etc, the sound will improve... but I think that right now, you're still hearing the best "compromise". Even if they do record an album on a 2" multi track, and even if you would mix it to a 1/2" or even 1/4" 2 track master, there's still going to be a transfer to digital somewhere, and along with that transfer is going to come all the inherant paramters of digital: dithering, A/D conversion, etc. I guess, to summarize, it would probably be better...but there are other factors to weigh in...far too many to get into tonight..LOL..the fact is, we live in a " cut-copy-paste- I don't like it so I want to undo it-keep it as cheap and convenient as possible"- world... and digital fits that criteria. FWIW Have a great night everyone, and a great weekend...I'm off to Canada tomorrow for a few days.. will be interested to see what other posts appear on this thread..which was a good one by the way! D.
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name1432
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 23:01:56
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have a god trip Donny and thanks for your sharing your knowledge
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name1432
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/23 23:54:44
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ORIGINAL: DonnyAir
until now, i'd been assuming that if a producer
1. recorded and/or mixed on high-end tape, to achieve the unique tape sound
2. transfered the result onto CD
... i'd been assuming that the CD would (and does often in practice) convey the tape quality that people hear.
Or can't the unique sound of tape be conveyed by CD to a listener
LOL...wellllll.............. that's a matter of conjecture...
You occasionally still use tape for some reason, so I'm conjecturing the reason is audible and can be conveyed digitally to your audience -- unless your audience is listening to a tape or record?
post edited by name1432 - 2005/06/24 00:06:52
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yep
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RE: Tape Saturation: Theory
2005/06/24 00:08:07
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ORIGINAL: name1432
You occasionally still use tape for some reason, so I'm conjecturing the reason is audible and can be conveyed digitally to your audience -- unless your audience is listening on tape or record?
Yeah, a recording made on analog tape and then mastered to CD will sound different and arguably better than an all-digital recording mastered to CD, just as a recording of a guitar played through a genuine tube amp and played back on a solid-state sytem will sound better than a guitar played through an overdriven home stereo and then played back on the same system. Make sense? Cheers.
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