sharke

Beepster
How many people in the US supported the various wars in the middle east over the past nearly 20 years?
 
I mean... you do realize you're at war, right?

 
If you'd ask them though, you'd find that they don't support the idea of military attacks which deliberately target civilians, and they support the billions of dollars worth of technical R&D that has gone into developing weapons which find their targets with pinpoint accuracy thus minimizing civilian casualties.I don't think you'd find any significant support for the military targeting civilians in any form.  

Are you sure about that? Because I've definitely heard/seen the term "glass parking lot" bandied about quite a LOT. Even here on this forum.
 
My point is, and I say this with much luv and respect for ya (seriously... I've always liked you except when this topic comes up), you cannot blame this type of behavior on Islam or Muslims in general. Douchecanoes like this guy are following a twisted/radical variant of the religion and are being manipulated by self serving, power hungry jagwagons.
 
Just like I don't equate all Christians with the dumbasses who blow up abortion clinics or all white dudes with that jerkoff who plowed into the crowd in Charlottesville. Hell, as much as I despise racists/racism I wouldn't even paint them all with the same brush as that guy because the majority of them likely aren't down with just outright murdering people.
 
So yeah... you want to hate on the extremists? I'm right there with ya. Trying to paint all Muslims (most of whom are very peaceful, hardworking and just want what everyone else wants. A decent life for themselves and those they care about) with the same brush isn't cool or correct.
 
However all I really want is for us to not have this type of convo start seeping into this particular forum. I have a whole slew of socio-political stances/opinions that I just KNOW would likely cause a whole poopstorm up in here so I generally just keep it to myself... up to a point.
 
Anyhoo... I doubt I can change anyone's mind on this stuff but can we just rage out on the murderers and leave the generalizations out of it?
 
Knowwadimean, jelly bean?
 
Cheers.

sharke
Personally I'm hugely against religion of any kind - I think it's the biggest source of evil and cruelty and ignorance and death in this world. 

I would add politics to this statement (which is why both are against the TOS - heh).
 
I would also point out that I keep spirituality and religion (a man-made entity for the control and power over the masses) separate.  Same with politics and community leadership/support.  One's hidden goal is power and control over the masses, the other supports them.
 
(IBTL?)

Okay, well I could certainly refute quite a bit of that and provide multiple examples to back it up but really I doubt it would make a difference and as I said I try to avoid ramming my politics/beleifs down peoples throats (at least around here) but really...
 
What's your end game then? Do we abolish Islam? Do we round up all Muslims and put them in camps? Do we continue buggering around in their homelands for not so noble reasons? What?
 
And I'm sorry, you say you aren't generalizing then you go and do a whole bunch of generalizing.
 
Also it should be noted that the first part of the Q'ran is really quite peaceful and lovey dovey. Once ole Muhammed got booted out of Mecca for buggering up the status quo is when he started spewing all that Jihad crap which is what these lunatics use as their excuse to murder... because people were quite literal trying to kill him and all his followers so he wanted revenge. So a well meaning merchant who did some desert shrooms and started out wanting to help people, got kicked in the balls for it then kind of turned into an arsehole.
 
Don't get me wrong. I despise organized religion and most certainly hate violence of any kind (I am literally violently opposed to violence) but I believe in full bodily, mental and spiritual autonomy for the individual.
 
Just as long as that individual does not invade on the autonomy of another individual... which of course violent acts are a massive violation of said autonomy.
 
THAT is the true spirit of libertarianism. Not this weird twisted faux libertarianism that seems to have sprouted up that somehow allows for the subjugation of others.
 
It's all or nothing. It can't just be liberty for ME but not that other dood over there because he's not like me.
 
Murderous arseholes however? Ya, got no love or sympathy for them which brings up another point.
 
Just because people like me think it is wrong to accuse all Muslims of being terrorists or terrorist sympathizers (because it's simply not true) does NOT mean we condone or accept these types of horrendous acts. There are a whle pile of Islamaphobes though that seem to think we do.
 
We don't. We probably hate this crap more than you do.
 
So have we sufficiently broken the TOS yet?
 
;-)

So why not say ISIS wannabe?
 
Or Al Quaeda derpclowns?
 
Yanno... like how we call the Klan what they are when they do something crappy or what we call neo Nazis when they do something crappy or eco terrorists when they do something crappy or when the IRA would do something crappy, or when bikers do something crappy, etc.
 
My whole bleeding point is just saying/implying "Muslims" or "Islam" is inaccurate. These are specific radical groups. Yes they are a major problem and need to be thwarted at every turn as much as possible.
 
Muslims in general are just people and I find it gross that they have to take on all the hate and blame for these jerks running around hurting people.
 

craigb
The REAL problem are CIA created "events" designed to divide and enrage while making them look like they are being performed by Islamic radicals.  Remember, UN Agenda 21 calls for ONE religion for all (among other horrifying things).
 
(Just to thicken the pot a bit.)

Well I won't go down any conspiracy rabbit holes but yeah, the CIA are kind of a really nefarious bunch of shiz disturbers and absolutely had a hand in stirring up this particular hornets nest... like for many many decades.
 
And yes... discord. Forever sowing discord.
 
Arses.

Yes. Seriously.
 
If we viewed the human race(s) the same way we view breeds of dogs it wouldn't be "Oh those guys are like Dobies and those other doods are Spaniels, etc).
 
It would be more like every dog is a Lab but some are chocolate, some are golden, some are... etc, etc.
 
SCIENCE!!!

lulzity1

jamesg1213

craigb
 
When people ask if I'm a racist, I answer "Sure!" So they'll point at someone, who's black for example, and say "So you have a problem with them?" to which I'll answer "No, not at all; we're the same race."  They usually tend to look at me weird and say "But you're not black?" and my answer is "Those are just colors.  We're both from the human race.  I'm just not a fan of extraterrestrials."  Yeah, I'm setting them up a bit, but people desperately need to stop looking at the differences and start acknowledging the similarities.
 
 

Why do people keep asking you if you're racist?

My primary client is an immigration attorney's office.  Lots of hot buttons going on there!  If someone were to say something like "I'm going to march in the next Purple Lives Matters protest!" (for example), I might ask if they're going to march in a Green Lives Matters protest should one be created.  Now-a-days, as you can probably guess, lots of people believe if you don't think exactly as they do on a certain subjects, you're a racist, an atheist, a terrorist, a sexist, homophobic or any number of accepted terms to help promote division (as per my other point above).
 
Most don't see the forest, only specific trees.  Those are the ones who might ask.

DrLumen

Beepster
How many people in the US supported the various wars in the middle east over the past nearly 20 years?
 
I mean... you do realize you're at war, right?

Those same people have been at war for thousands of years. It's not like we started anything. The Israeli's barged in and claimed the table. Then, we had to go and make sure we had a seat. The wars would have been raging all the same.

Indeed. Total hornets nest.
 
Not sure why we insist on inserting our [REDACTED]s into it.
 
I mean... I know the answer "why" but it's not particularly altruistic... nor beneficial to us western plebes.

For the record, I never blame the military (even though there are a few who feel like they're playing a video game on steroids).  I place it squarely on the political leaders with an agenda.  They play chess while the lower levels try to claim every pawn life matters.

Beepster
So why not say ISIS wannabe?
 
Or Al Quaeda derpclowns?
 
Yanno... like how we call the Klan what they are when they do something crappy or what we call neo Nazis when they do something crappy or eco terrorists when they do something crappy or when the IRA would do something crappy, or when bikers do something crappy, etc.
 
My whole bleeding point is just saying/implying "Muslims" or "Islam" is inaccurate. These are specific radical groups. Yes they are a major problem and need to be thwarted at every turn as much as possible.
 
Muslims in general are just people and I find it gross that they have to take on all the hate and blame for these jerks running around hurting people.
 

I think what a lot of people fail to acknowledge is that Islam (or any other religion) is not a race or an ethnicity. It's a collection of ideas. As adults, we are quite free to embrace or reject any set of ideas we like. We're also free to judge people for the ideas they hold, since the ideas you choose to embrace are a reflection of your character. I firmly believe that religion, as an idea, is dangerous and will always lead to violence, oppression, cruelty and subjugation. The reason being that when it comes to religion, there is no appeal to reason. You cannot challenge a religious statement with logic - no matter how illogical or easily debunkable it is, the religious person can always appeal to some intangible "other world" and dismiss objective arguments without having to offer a single fact or rationalization. "It says so in this here book that was written by God" is apparently enough. And thus there is no limit on this earth to what can be justified by mysticism. 
 
You are adult enough to understand that when someone says "x% of Muslims...." they mean exactly that, x% of a group. They are not saying "the whole group." Therefore, it is not a generalization of a group. It is a distinct proportion. Now then. Whether or not it's worth getting worried about the attitudes and beliefs of a distinct proportion of a group, depends on how big that proportion is (and what it translates to in absolute numbers). 
 
0.01% of 100,000 people is not only an overwhelming minority, it's also a very small number of people in total. 20% of a billion people (for example), is an extremely significant proportion, and a huge number of people in total. Should we be worried that such a large group of people thinks that suicide bombings against civilians are honorable if they're done in the name of their religion? Of course! After the 7/7 London Underground bombings, surveys showed that as many as 25% of British Muslims supported the bombers. The figure was even higher among the under-30's. You can dance around this all you like with warm and fuzzy platitudes about togetherness, but the fact remains that this is and will continue to be a huge problem as extremism in these communities flourishes - unreported, hidden and supported by a significant proportion of the community.
 
Also in that Pew study - 50% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas, and 30% have a positive view of Hezbollah, both groups with direct and indirect links to terrorism. By saying this, am I claiming that all Egyptians support terrorism? Of course not - that would be factually incorrect. But would these figures make me think twice about taking a trip to Egypt (or investing in the country if I were some big shot businessman)? Of course they would. 

Oh... I fergot what I came in here again for.
 
Relevant

This fred is now POGUES!

Oh... knowing humans if anybody declared a war anywhere somebody is gonna come.
 
we're pretty icky like that...

Wow. Nice one, LP.
 
I am well aware of Canadian military involvement in said wars (as well as our abstentions).
 
I do indeed pay attention.