rbowser
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 00:45:16
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rich936
I admit Sonar is working so well that I forgot I had even joined this forum. Nice to see all is going well here. I plan to take a stab at this shootout (or should I have said "shot"). It sounds like fun.
Rich
Rich! So excellent to see a Garritan Forum buddy here on this thread. Go for this, my friend. Once you open up that .cwp file, you'll see that it's a quick project, to demo whatever library/soft synth you'd like with the file. "...I admit Sonar is working so well that I forgot I had even joined this forum..." Ah! But that assumes one visits Forums only to get answers to problems. I encourage you to hang out more here, pick up tips from various threads, help out people who need assistance in an area you know about, etc - It's a very lively group here, and great fun. Since getting more active here again since last December, I've improved my use of Sonar immensely just by hanging out. Randy B.
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rich936
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 07:42:19
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Thanks, Randy and you are correct. One can learn more by hanging around and participating in the forum. One just has to have a few more hours in a day to squeeze all the forums into the schedule.  This will make my fifth active forum I get involved with. Rich
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jcschild
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 09:41:53
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Bitflipper,
so back to the original ?
""And yet, despite how far we've come, truly believable strings (and horns) are still somewhat elusive.""
have you now found strings and horns are now great?
has anyone submited Vienna yet?
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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bitflipper
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 10:45:26
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have you now found strings and horns are now great? has anyone submited Vienna yet? Not me. But then, I haven't heard them yet, either. The submissions go online today (look for an announcement in a separate thread later today) but they will remain anonymous files for the time being. Listen to them, note your favorites, and make comments about them here. But we want to initially give folks a period in which to really listen without being prejudiced by foreknowledge of the details. If you knew in advance that a piece was recorded with VSL, for example, expectation bias might color your assessment of the submission.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bitflipper
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 13:19:23
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This project has turned into a contest, with real PRIZES. See the announcement here.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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jsaras
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 16:24:46
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*
post edited by jsaras - 2010/07/30 21:54:31
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rbowser
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 16:53:50
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jsaras
My initial quibble is that it sounds like the MP3s were re-compressed a second time. Things sound more warbly than I remember!
Hmmm. I suppose you're picking up on whatever kind of compression the Wix site applies to MP3s. I am sure they sound better than Soundclick tracks though. The tracks I know the sound of best are the ones I contributed, and those sound fine to me. So--don't know what to tell you, Jonas. - Your "initial quibble"---you mean, you anticipate having more?  Bitflipper - How are yours sounding to you on the site? Randy B.
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bitflipper
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 20:24:38
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I'll have to put them up side-by-side and see if I can hear a difference. If I can't, I'll capture one as it's being played back, load it up in Audition and compare it spectrally with the original.
You might check with Wix and see if they resample the files the way Soundclick does. Maybe there is an option somewhere to make them not do that.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bitflipper
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 21:00:39
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Randy, I just sent you two emails with pictures. This was not an exhaustive test - I only looked at the spectra and the amplitude distribution histogram - but I see no evidence of resampling or other mangling by the web software. In fact, I was startled by how little the captured MP3 from the site differed from the original 32-bit file.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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jsaras
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 21:24:06
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*
post edited by jsaras - 2010/07/30 21:55:12
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rbowser
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 21:30:25
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jsaras
Things are definitely being resampled on their end. My entries certainly sound different and I can't believe that so many people have MP3 encoding that sounds that garbled. #20 sounds like it's in the Gulf oil spill!
Hi, Jonas - I think Bitflipper should post the screen shots he sent me demonstrating there is no difference between the original files and the posted Wix versions. My tracks sound no different, because they aren't different. I know which are yours, and they also sound the same. #20 you're referring to sounds the way it was mixed. BUT - in case you missed it, I'm going to add a link at the Wix site that will go to a page outside of Wix. It will be a simple page with all the full rez MP3s file - no player to get in the way. You and everyone will be able to download the MP3s there if you want, click on them to let your Media Player play them--whatever you want. Just give me a day to set that up. Randy B.
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bitflipper
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 21:46:45
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Jonas, I listened to #20 and I hear what you're talking about. It does sound ugly. Bad, bad aliasing. I'll have to download the original for that one and compare it to what's coming through the player. Whether it's the result of resampling or downsampling for streaming via the player, or a mistake during encoding I don't know, but there is definitely something wrong. I then listened to #21 and heard terrible aliasing there, too. Not quite as bad as #20, but bad. It sure sounded like 128kb/s or worse. Again, I don't know whether that happened in the initial encoding or later, but I was definitely not hearing a 320kb/s CBR file! Curiously, my tests - which used one of my own submissions - showed no measurable difference, even when comparing a captured file via the player to the original 32-bit file. I just now went back to it to see if it might be a function of server load or something. That file still sounds OK - no warble, no aliasing. I am temporarily stumped. #23, 24 and 25 all sounded OK when played immediately after. At this moment I am leaning toward an error in the initial encoding as the most plausible explanation. I'll get #20 and #21 originals when Randy puts them up and get to the bottom of it.
post edited by bitflipper - 2010/07/30 21:52:51
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rbowser
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 22:15:28
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re: MP3s - I can tell you, as the collector of the MP3s for this - even though they're all approximately the same length, the file size varied Wildly, and the reason is that they were encoded at varying bit rates. I am positive some of them are 128, and logically enough, the files twice as large are 320.----
I've moved the MP3s into a page at my Tripod site, now I'll do something simple with the entries so people can have access to the originals. All concerns will then be put to rest.
Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 23:08:45
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Here is the new page which will be added to our Orchestral Shootout site - It's a simple page with the MP3s in a numbered list, linking to direct copies of the originals. No questions about online sites and/or players degrading the resolution. Click them to play in your Media Players, and/or right click to save them to your hard drive. THE MP3s AGAIN
Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/30 23:53:39
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bitflipper
Jonas, I listened to #20 and I hear what you're talking about. It does sound ugly. Bad, bad aliasing. I'll have to download the original for that one and compare it to what's coming through the player. Whether it's the result of resampling or downsampling for streaming via the player, or a mistake during encoding I don't know, but there is definitely something wrong.
I then listened to #21 and heard terrible aliasing there, too. Not quite as bad as #20, but bad. It sure sounded like 128kb/s or worse. Again, I don't know whether that happened in the initial encoding or later, but I was definitely not hearing a 320kb/s CBR file!
Curiously, my tests - which used one of my own submissions - showed no measurable difference, even when comparing a captured file via the player to the original 32-bit file. I just now went back to it to see if it might be a function of server load or something. That file still sounds OK - no warble, no aliasing.
I am temporarily stumped. #23, 24 and 25 all sounded OK when played immediately after. At this moment I am leaning toward an error in the initial encoding as the most plausible explanation. I'll get #20 and #21 originals when Randy puts them up and get to the bottom of it.
I now have the new page up. There's no MP3 player involved, it's a page that has direct copies of the original MP3s. On our Orchestral shootout site, there's a big red button to take you to this alternate page if people want to play the files directly and/or download them. Regarding entry #20 - As you'll hear, the original sounds like it does on the Wix site. I've checked my original from the email I was sent, the one at the Wix site, the direct copy on the new page-- they all sound the same. Now I've looked at the properties of the MP3s and can confirm: --#s 20 and 21 don't sound so good because they are low resolution MP3s. That's the way they came to me. #20 is 1.01 MB in size, at 128kbs. #21 is 1.03 MB in size, at 160kbs. By comparison, the largest, and much better sounding MP3 is 3.22 MB and at 320kbs. More than 3 times the file size. If ever there was proof some people needed about the sonic difference between MP3 resolutions - this is it. Some posts on this thread have been deleted - I'll point out that the MP3s in question on those posts were recorded at 160kbs. One other factor that doesn't help - some of these files used the strings on tremolo for the opening passage, something which was advised against. It gives that strange warbling effect which is out of place in the opening measures. These are the facts, and the new page will assure every reasonable person that what you're hearing at Wix is an extremely reasonable presentation of the MP3s as they were given to me. SO--for those of you still working on your submissions, don't even think of reducing your work to MP3 bit rates as low as 128 and 160. The largest bit rate possible is 320 - that's what you should use. Randy B.
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Guitarpima
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 00:28:14
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I hate the midi file. To get it to sound anywhere near decent, I'm having to go through each instrument and note by note seperate each part so each instrument has it's own line and not just grouped together. IE: The trombones has four parts but they are on one stave. To get bones to sound right, I have to seperate the parts.
Is there an easier way to seperate each part?
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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bitflipper
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 01:14:08
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Quickest way I know is to clone the track and then delete what you don't want from each. If you have a specific note range in mind, it takes about 30 seconds.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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jsaras
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 01:21:58
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Sibelius has great utilities for separating each line out. I hope to see that kind of selection filter in Sonar 9!
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rbowser
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 01:26:02
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Guitarpima
I hate the midi file. To get it to sound anywhere near decent, I'm having to go through each instrument and note by note seperate each part so each instrument has it's own line and not just grouped together. IE: The trombones has four parts but they are on one stave. To get bones to sound right, I have to seperate the parts.
Is there an easier way to seperate each part?
Hi, Guitarpima - Yeah, that about describes it - "I'm having to go through each instrument note by note..." It's a GM file made in 1989, limited to 16 MIDI channels. Now all of us who have worked with it have gone about splitting the tracks the way we want and assigning the instruments. Like Bit described, it works fine to clone the tracks ("linked" off--otherwise your edits on one cloned track will effect the others) and then editing the notes out in each track that you don't want. That's pretty standard MIDI editing procedure for something like this. The "piccolo" track is a perfect example. It's actually piccolo and flute - Split it to two tracks, assign the higher notes to picc, lower to flute. That's all there is to it. And like Bit also said, it doesn't take long to do edits like that. It's not as if you have to edit each note one-by-one. We're all in the same ball game. This is what we've been given to work with-- un-edited, raw. You make of it what you can. NOTE - Just don't make the mistake some earlier entrants did when they made their MP3s. Do it at the highest resolution, which is 320 kbs. Otherwise you'll hear your results on the Shootout site and wonder why it doesn't sound so good. Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 01:34:14
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jsaras
Sibelius has great utilities for separating each line out. I hope to see that kind of selection filter in Sonar 9!
I use Sibelius also, it's nifty. If something is actually on a line of its own, the program easily separates it out, of course. But in this MIDI file, using Guitarpima's example - the trombones are all one track, so if this MIDI file was imported into Sib, the notes would appear all on one line - The problem of separating them out would be exactly the same as in Sonar. But as Bit pointed out, it's easy enough to split things out. I could have taken this found MIDI file and done a lot of the work for people ahead of time, editing the file, making assumptions of what people would want to work with etc - but I thought this kind of basic MIDI editing would be a walk in the park for people with experience who would be interested in doing this challenge Bit and I set up. I admit not anticipating that so many people not very experienced with MIDI would show so much interest. It's great that you guys are doing this, it's just difficult to keep up with the tutorializing it's ended up calling for. Randy B.
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jsaras
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 01:55:18
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I use this edit function in Sibelius often to tear apart "pianistic" chords on a single staff into individual lines.
Go to "Edit">"Filter">"Notes in Chords (For Copying)".
The following options are available: "Top Note or Single Notes", "2nd note or single notes", "3rd notes or single notes", "Bottom note or single notes".
Using this function allows me to select the top notes in any polyphonic staff and copy them over to a trumpet part, the 2nd note down copied to trumpet 2, etc. I think you get the general gist. Although you can accomplish the same task the "long-hand" way in Sonar, it's not as nice as the automated function in Sibelius.
Sibelius has a LOT of frustrating limitations with MIDI editing, but it clearly excels in this one area.
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rbowser
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 02:01:06
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Yes, Jonas, I know about that function in Sib. It's no faster for me than working in Sonar. Two very different programs, but in reference to what we're doing here with this Shootout, it's about the recording, which of course Sonar wins hands down over Sib. Editing is a bit of a chore with mouse clicks galore, no matter what program we're using.
Meanwhile, for anyone following these threads thoroughly, we've all at least learned not to make MP3s of our work in anything but the highest 320kb resolution.
Randy B.
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Guitarpima
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 12:01:01
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I figured as much. I clone the track once, then go about deleting the lower parts on the top stave then the top part on the lower stave. If I have to I clone the lower track/stave and go about the same thing. I should have started it a long time ago though. Grrrrrrrrr
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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bitflipper
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 12:28:24
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There has been some speculation that the website might be reducing the sound quality of these submissions. It was feared that the files were being resampled to a lower bitrate, which is a common practice on the internet when the music is going to be streamed via a player. I can assure you that this is not the case. The files are not being compromised in any way and are indeed playing back on your computer at the same level of quality as the original files. Here is a picture (Adobe Audition) of the spectral content of one of my submissions. This is NOT an MP3. This is a 32-bit PCM wave.  Next, I played back the MP3 version of the same file from Randy's page, using the embedded player there, and captured the playback with Streamosaur. Here is the spectrum of the captured file:  They are quite similar. Surprisingly similar, given that between picture #1 and picture #2 the data has undergone not one but two conversions, first from 32-bit wave to 320kb/s MP3 and then from MP3 back to a wave (16/44.1). I also looked at the amplitude statistics, which showed essentially identical amplitude distribution. Next, I downloaded file #20, which exhibits some nasty aliasing when played back from the site. Of course, the first clue was when Windows announced it to be a 128kb/s MP3. Mystery solved. As expected, it exhibits the characteristic chopped-off high end of low bit rate MP3s:  Now, we all listen to 128kb/s files on the internet and most of them don't sound as bad as trek #20. This can be explained by two factors. First, this piece has a lot of high-frequency content, which is going to exacerbate aliasing. Second, you're hearing it side-by-side with 320kb/s files which makes the difference all the more dramatic. See? We're learning stuff from this project already! Conclusion #1: 128kb/s = crap. At least for orchestral music.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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rbowser
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 13:33:11
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Great, thanks for posting the screen shots and for the info, Bit.
Meanwhile, on the site there's a link to a new page which is a depository for straight copies of the original MP3s, no possibly suspect MP3 player involved - you just click on the numbers on that new page and your own Media Player will play the MP3s. Those files are absolutely guaranteed to be exactly the same as the copies on my hard drive. That page makes it easier to download the recordings also if you want.
NOTE TO FUTURE SUBMITTERS:
---You definitely want to make your MP3 at 320kbs - That will make your file between 2.5 and 3 MBs in size.
--DO NOT ADD info in the I.D. fields - I've been getting some MP3s that identify the software used and people's names. This first phase of the contest needs all such information to be unavailable - so I'm stripping that info out when I find it, but it would be great if you just don't add it in the first place.
Randy B.
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noiseboy
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 21:06:52
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Apologies if you've covered these questions already, but a few additional ones on the rules... Editing midi notes. I found that I wanted to tweek the lengths of the sustained notes in particular to connect them correctly - this I would routinely do to anything I compose with my libs, makes a massive difference to the realism. Just to be clear, I'm just talking about extending the lengths to some notes / parts fractionally - is this allowed? Also presuming that velocities and dynamics are tweekable. The snare rolls sounded hideous on my lib... is it ok to replace these with the same sample library's dedicated snare roll patch? Trills (such as in the woodwinds near the end) - ditto from above, is it ok to replace with a trill patch? Mucho gracias - great idea, btw!
post edited by noiseboy - 2010/07/31 21:07:54
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rbowser
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/07/31 23:09:16
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noiseboy
Apologies if you've covered these questions already, but a few additional ones on the rules...
Editing midi notes. I found that I wanted to tweek the lengths of the sustained notes in particular to connect them correctly - this I would routinely do to anything I compose with my libs, makes a massive difference to the realism. Just to be clear, I'm just talking about extending the lengths to some notes / parts fractionally - is this allowed? Also presuming that velocities and dynamics are tweekable.
The snare rolls sounded hideous on my lib... is it ok to replace these with the same sample library's dedicated snare roll patch?
Trills (such as in the woodwinds near the end) - ditto from above, is it ok to replace with a trill patch?
Mucho gracias - great idea, btw!
Hiya, Noiseboy A big Yes, it's OK to all you ask. I know both of the threads about this contest are now too mammoth to wade through. But editing the lengths of notes, their velocities, and any other dynamics you want to work with are all allowed. We just need to keep the basic core arrangement the same i.e.--the note values. Wherever there's a funky spot, like perhaps the percussion rolls, the woodwind trills--just stick to the intention of the original. If you have patches which are rolls, trills, feel free to use them. The idea is show of your soft synth of choice, so do everything you know how to do to make it sound the best it can with material at hand. I appreciate you asking the questions. Now get your MP3 done and fire it at me! Randy B.
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bitflipper
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/08/01 01:03:29
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Just don't replace the flute trill with a snare roll. That would be in violation of the rules.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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noiseboy
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/08/01 03:59:18
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bitflipper
Just don't replace the flute trill with a snare roll.
Ha, what a hideous thought! Thanks folks, will mix in the next couple of days and duly send....
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Twigman
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Re:The SONAR Orchestral Library Shootout
2010/08/01 06:47:06
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I've managed to identify mine on the list and after listening to the others I conclude it's not that bad!!!
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