Helpful ReplyThe Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread

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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/01 10:01:09 (permalink)
Is the default ON or OFF??? (can't get that neither from documentation nor this thread ... and haven't installed yet)
 
Anyone having project sample rate at 96 kHz tried this yet? I assume it would oversample to 192 kHz ... and work fine ... and I would hear it ;-) ... and CPU would not melt ... or am I too optimistic???
post edited by FreeFlyBertl - 2015/07/01 10:07:24

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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/01 10:18:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby FreeFlyBertl 2015/07/02 03:49:41
Upsampling is off by default. You have to enable on a per plugin basis.
Upsampling is active upto 192K if you need it :-) it is grayed out in projects at higher rates.
Resampling is done in fast bounce mode so it should be no problem for any cpu, though it will add load.

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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/01 11:35:44 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Doktor Avalanche
Well I don't know of any global settings that can get changed in Sonar, that can alter sound, other than via preferences and plugin manager. Correct me if I'm wrong? Plenty of studios share DAW computers as you know...



If you have a multi user setup and care about someone changing your settings, you shouldn't be sharing the same user profile. That said all the resampling settings are stored in aud.ini (which is per user) so you can easily backup and restore the config settings if you need to. And even latency settings can "alter sound". There are some plugins that sound different at different buffer sizes. 


And then run Sonar as Administrator ;)

I've never seen a recording studio set up additional user accounts. I agree they should but if they are using old plugins such as pentagon which does not store settings in the correct area of the registry, you know life isn't that simple.

Point is up until now I knew that only that altering in preferences and plugin manager will change global settings. Changing global setting in preferences or a setting section has been standard for some time in almost every app I can think of (no doubt somebody will find something obscure to prove me wrong).

Otherwise if a global setting gets changed elsewhere it generally comes with a warning... 'All settings for this plugin will be changed are you sure?'
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/07/01 11:42:37

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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/01 11:40:26 (permalink)
It's a secret...

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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/01 11:50:32 (permalink)
Tom Riggs
I can state that TruePianos benefits from the upsampling. I read that many of the guitar amp sims might benefit but which ones?  I have guitar rig 3 and 4 that came with Sonar versions.
 
What about the reverbs, chorus and phasers etc that come with Sonar? Lets make a list of the plugs that seem to be improved by this new feature.
 

 
Now that we can find out, we will find out. I'd start with any instrument that uses Reaktor, like Prism. Also amp sims. Try the amp sim internal oversampling and compare with upsampling, then enable internal oversampling and do upsampling and compare that.

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ampfixer
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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/01 13:59:48 (permalink)
I've confirmed a couple of things with this new option. I had 4 tracks with the same plug and enabling upsample on 1 does indeed turn it on for all instances of the plug. Another interesting thing happened when I messed up my install of Sonar. I had to do a roll back and then D/L the current version. When I checked on the plugs I configured to upsample prior to the problem, they were still set to upsample. This is really great because it looks like one less thing to mess with after the monthly updates.

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#66
scook
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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/01 14:03:07 (permalink)
The upsample switches for each plug-in are stored at the bottom of aud.ini
For details, see the "Upsample settings" section near the bottom of http://www.cakewalk.com/D...mp;help=Mixing.25.html
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drewfx1
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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/01 14:32:26 (permalink)
Anderton
Now that we can find out, we will find out. I'd start with any instrument that uses Reaktor, like Prism. Also amp sims.



The full version of Reaktor allows for upsampling internally (and for good reason, as it's absolutely necessary sometimes!).
 
Some have stated that in the free Reaktor Player the upsampling options were grayed out, but I'm not 100% certain whether that's a configuration issue or a limitation of the free player as I have the full version.

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slartabartfast
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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/01 17:31:08 (permalink)
An interesting commentary that suggests local re-sampling (which seems to be the point of this new feature) is inherently inferior to doing the whole project end to end at a higher sample rate:
https://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/working-itb-at-higher-sampling-rates/
 
The specific issues discussed are related to plugins that upsample themselves, rather than to plugs that are fed locally upsampled input by their host. Of course back in the dark ages when this was written DAW's did not offer this feature. The author observed that if he re-sampled a project at a higher SR, he found it necessary to re-do the mix at the end of the process, without any detail about what he found needed fixing.
 
Can someone explain how one can determine (without using the notoriously unreliable ear) that foldover distortion has occurred during processing? It would seem that the designers of expensive plugins must have a way to do this, and should be able to provide something more than audiophilic necromancy that their products would or would not benefit from such treatment. Maybe someone at Cakewalk actually knows and has asked some of these people.
 
 
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gustabo
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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/01 18:17:20 (permalink)
It would be nice if you could right click the synth name in the synth rack and select upsample on render...


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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/01 19:30:31 (permalink)
gustabo
It would be nice if you could right click the synth name in the synth rack and select upsample on render...



But remember, it's plug-ins too, not just VIs. If a synth needs resampling, once you enable that you're probably not going to want to turn it off.

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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/01 19:41:13 (permalink)
gustabo
It would be nice if you could right click the synth name in the synth rack and select upsample on render...



Sure. This is version 1 of this feature - I have a feeling that you will see some interesting enhancements in upcoming rolling updates :) This is one of the huge advantages of the new distribution model - that we can offer users improvements as they are done rather than you having to wait a year or more.

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Anderton
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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/01 19:42:13 (permalink)
slartabartfast
An interesting commentary that suggests local re-sampling (which seems to be the point of this new feature) is inherently inferior to doing the whole project end to end at a higher sample rate:
https://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/working-itb-at-higher-sampling-rates/

 
If you start at 96 kHz, you don't have to resample unless you go down to 44.1, which you probably will anyway for a commercial CD release. So then the question becomes whether converting the sample rate up to 96 kHz causes more deterioration to the signal than the foldover distortion it removes. I don't think there's any doubt about that. The sample rate conversion algorithm that SONAR uses is very high quality.
 
Can someone explain how one can determine (without using the notoriously unreliable ear) that foldover distortion has occurred during processing?

 
For applying this feature, actually the ear is pretty good at this sort of thing . It's all quite subjective; for example removing foldover distortion may take out some of the perceived "fatness" in a drum part. One person who was evaluating upsampling said that sometimes it sounded too clean.
 

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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/01 19:44:01 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
gustabo
It would be nice if you could right click the synth name in the synth rack and select upsample on render...



Sure. This is version 1 of this feature - I have a feeling that you will see some interesting enhancements in upcoming rolling updates :) This is one of the huge advantages of the new distribution model - that we can offer users improvements as they are done rather than you having to wait a year or more.



Hey Noel, thanks for stopping by! Glad to hear you may enhance this in the future. 

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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/01 19:45:01 (permalink)
drewfx1 
Some have stated that in the free Reaktor Player the upsampling options were grayed out, but I'm not 100% certain whether that's a configuration issue or a limitation of the free player as I have the full version.



I've heard that as well, but I too have the full version...

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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/01 20:09:26 (permalink)
Tom Riggs
I can state that TruePianos benefits from the upsampling. I read that many of the guitar amp sims might benefit but which ones?  I have guitar rig 3 and 4 that came with Sonar versions.
 
 
What about the reverbs, chorus and phasers etc that come with Sonar? Lets make a list of the plugs that seem to be improved by this new feature.
 



Let's subject any claims to a blind test. Otherwise they are worth exactly diddle. From now until infinity posters will be waxing rhapsodically about how upsampling makes this reverb "shiny". That buffer delay "playful". This tube saturation "porky". That console emulator "pastoral". 
#76
Tom Riggs
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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/01 21:46:22 (permalink)
Do what you like I already did the testing to my satisfaction long ago. My only trouble was I did not get the upsampling setup correctly the first time I tested it in the current build. 
 
 
I'm using the Atlantis module available to download from TP directly. I have the full version so I'm not sure if it is available to the sonar only users.
 
My claim may be worth dittle to you however to me it is golden. Have a nice day.
 
 
Oh and by the way I tested Lounge lizard 3 as well but I can not tell any difference at all. So for whatever that is worth to you are anyone else.
 
I also noticed that the bridged plugins do not support the upsample option. I was going to test my copy of B4 II to see if there was any benefit when I discovered the bridging limitation.
 
 
post edited by Tom Riggs - 2015/07/01 21:57:13

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scook
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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/01 21:51:14 (permalink)
SONAR bundles amber. TruePianos does give a pretty generous discount to the full product for Producer/Platinum users.
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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/01 22:00:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RSMCGUITAR 2015/07/01 22:50:07
Notecrusher
 
Let's subject any claims to a blind test.

 
Been there, done that. Here's an example of a file I played at my address to the New Music Seminar last week in New York. This download link is good for 7 days.
 
The file is at 44.1 kHz. The second half was upsampled to 96 kHz then downsampled back to 44.1 kHz. If you can't hear a difference between the first and second sections, especially with headphones, you should probably consider a career path that involves something other than audio. 

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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/01 22:45:29 (permalink)
Thanks Craig.
I'm pretty new and I think that example was great for a newb like me to get the idea 'ears on.'
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Tom Riggs
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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/01 23:06:28 (permalink)
A bit further testing with truepianos seems to indicate that the only module that has a noticeable difference (at least to me) is the Atlantis module which is a preview for the next version. The other modules I tested I could not tell a difference.
 
I should also note that where I hear the most difference is in the attack of the note especially on the higher velocities. The upsample seems to have a more rounded attack and the regular seems harsh to me. Of course depending on what you want out of the track may determine weather you prefer the upsample or not.
 
YMMV
 
 
post edited by Tom Riggs - 2015/07/01 23:17:37

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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/02 01:09:20 (permalink)
RSMCGUITAR
Thanks Craig.
I'm pretty new and I think that example was great for a newb like me to get the idea 'ears on.'



Cool. If you listen on phones, you can hear the foldover distortion in the background of the first half. One reason I chose that sound is it didn't have a lot of lows to mask the distortion.
 
In fact, a lot of time the distortion will be masked by the audio, so you can't hear it per se...but if you mixed with the distortion present, the sound might seem weird if it's gone.

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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/02 02:28:34 (permalink)
Tom Riggs
A bit further testing with truepianos seems to indicate that the only module that has a noticeable difference (at least to me) is the Atlantis module which is a preview for the next version. The other modules I tested I could not tell a difference.
 
I should also note that where I hear the most difference is in the attack of the note especially on the higher velocities. The upsample seems to have a more rounded attack and the regular seems harsh to me. Of course depending on what you want out of the track may determine weather you prefer the upsample or not.
 
YMMV
 
 


It's interesting you mention the next version as I contacted them about 6 months ago and apparently new versions are still on the drawing board just taking longer than expected.

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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/02 03:11:57 (permalink)
Anderton
 
Been there, done that. Here's an example of a file I played at my address to the New Music Seminar last week in New York. This download link is good for 7 days.
 
The file is at 44.1 kHz. The second half was upsampled to 96 kHz then downsampled back to 44.1 kHz. If you can't hear a difference between the first and second sections, especially with headphones, you should probably consider a career path that involves something other than audio. 




I can certainly hear a difference. The second half has a much fuller richer sound especially in the highs. Is that because of the removal of foldover distortion? Assuming that something has been removed, the upsampled then downsampled again version should have less power at audible frequencies. Conversely if foldover or another form of distortion is introduced by the operation, there should be new frequencies or more power at existing frequencies introduced by the procedure. 
 

 
The above is a sonogram of your sample file. Notice the striking addition of new power in the top of the audible spectrum. Unless I am misunderstanding your description this second half is of the processed (upsampled/downsampled) signal. If so the original signal is the one which should contain only the original frequencies. Where did the new frequencies come from? If they are not present in the original and are present in the processed signal are they not artifacts? 
post edited by slartabartfast - 2015/07/02 03:45:18
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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/02 03:48:36 (permalink)
slartabartfast
Anderton
 
Been there, done that. Here's an example of a file I played at my address to the New Music Seminar last week in New York. This download link is good for 7 days.
 
The file is at 44.1 kHz. The second half was upsampled to 96 kHz then downsampled back to 44.1 kHz. If you can't hear a difference between the first and second sections, especially with headphones, you should probably consider a career path that involves something other than audio. 




I can certainly hear a difference. The second half has a much fuller richer sound especially in the highs. Is that because of the removal of foldover distortion? Assuming that something has been removed, the upsampled then downsampled again version should have less power at audible frequencies. Conversely if foldover or another form of distortion is introduced by the operation, there should be new frequencies or more power at existing frequencies introduced by the procedure. 
 

 
The above is a sonogram of your sample file. Notice the striking addition of new power in the top of the audible spectrum. Unless I am misunderstanding your description this second half is of the processed (upsampled/downsampled) signal. If so the original signal is the one which should contain only the original frequencies. Where did the new frequencies come from? If they are not present in the original and are present in the processed signal are they not artifacts? 




Yes, seeing it here too w/ SPAN. The oversampling is adding distortion at 19.4k and above.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/02 07:35:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby FreeFlyBertl 2015/07/02 12:12:04
Note that any distortion that might occur is not caused by SONAR's oversampling. The changes caused by SONAR's upsampling and downsampling will be very minor. You can verify that by using a sine wave as input and upsampling a plugin that does no processing or is bypassed. You can also test that plugin directly at the higher sample rate (without resampling) and bounce it to compare. The results should be very close to when resampled.
 
Plugin behavior at different sample rates can vary that's why the only way is to test it for yourself. Its possible that a plugin can cause distortion at higher sample rates. For example an instrument might have its samples stored at 44.1K and when run at 88.2 it will may resample to that rate. Depending on the quality of the SRC in the plugin you could get artifacts. Most plugins won't use the same high quality SRC that SONAR uses since its CPU expensive... There could be any number of other reasons for distortion as well depending on the DSP used in the plugin. There is no one size fits all answer. This is one of the main reasons for all the controversy about differences at high sample rates. It has more to do with variations in DSP processing at different sample rates than the higher sample rate.

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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/02 08:27:24 (permalink)
For those who are wondering you can see graphs on Sonar's SRC at http://src.infinitewave.ca/ they don't have a sample from Platinum yet but they do from X3 which is likely pretty similar. It does have a tiny bit of aliasing, but at like -100dB so totally inaudible, and it may be on purpose to get a slightly cleaner impulse response.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: The Foxboro Plug-In Upsampling Thread 2015/07/02 13:18:54 (permalink)
Doktor
Well I don't know of any global settings that can get changed in Sonar, that can alter sound, other than via preferences and plugin manager. Correct me if I'm wrong? Plenty of studios share DAW computers as you know...

 
Noel Borthwick
If you have a multi user setup and care about someone changing your settings, you shouldn't be sharing the same user profile. That said all the resampling settings are stored in aud.ini (which is per user) so you can easily backup and restore the config settings if you need to. And even latency settings can "alter sound". There are some plugins that sound different at different buffer sizes. 

 
Doktor
 
And then run Sonar as Administrator ;)

I've never seen a recording studio set up additional user accounts. I agree they should but if they are using old plugins such as pentagon which does not store settings in the correct area of the registry, you know life isn't that simple.

Point is up until now I knew that only that altering in preferences and plugin manager will change global settings. Changing global setting in preferences or a setting section has been standard for some time in almost every app I can think of (no doubt somebody will find something obscure to prove me wrong).

Otherwise if a global setting gets changed elsewhere it generally comes with a warning... 'All settings for this plugin will be changed are you sure?'




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Anderton
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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/02 16:08:58 (permalink)
Notecrusher
slartabartfast
 
I can certainly hear a difference. The second half has a much fuller richer sound especially in the highs. Is that because of the removal of foldover distortion? Assuming that something has been removed, the upsampled then downsampled again version should have less power at audible frequencies. Conversely if foldover or another form of distortion is introduced by the operation, there should be new frequencies or more power at existing frequencies introduced by the procedure. 
 

 
The above is a sonogram of your sample file. Notice the striking addition of new power in the top of the audible spectrum. Unless I am misunderstanding your description this second half is of the processed (upsampled/downsampled) signal. If so the original signal is the one which should contain only the original frequencies. Where did the new frequencies come from? If they are not present in the original and are present in the processed signal are they not artifacts? 




Yes, seeing it here too w/ SPAN. The oversampling is adding distortion at 19.4k and above.



The examples are NOT upsampled audio files, but rendered virtual instruments. In other words, the first example was a virtual instrument sitting in a 44.1 kHz project. It was never recorded at 44.1 kHz, it was rendered at 44.1 kHz. The second example has the same instrument, same track, same MIDI data feeding it, etc., and was also never recorded at 44.1 kHz. However, it was rendered at 96 kHz via upsampling, then downsampled to 44.1 kHz.
 
What you're seeing in the graph is what's so cool about the process; what is in the audio range is reproduced accurately when downsampled. 

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Anonymungus!
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Re: Which Sonar included plugs (current or Legacy) benifit from Upsampling? 2015/07/02 16:56:28 (permalink)
I like Noel's last comments (labeled HELPFUL). Seems to sum it up nicely.

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