The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared

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Roflcopter
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 07:26:17 (permalink)
Wow, eratu. Great job. +1 for the CW forumite of the month suggestion. Very cool community effort.

I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
#61
eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 07:41:25 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: John

Eratu; I see you made some changes. Well done.

I am trying to find errors. So far none. Darn it!



Yeah, I've had a few more tweaks here and there. Thank you for your comments about the MIDI file issues. I fired up Sonar again and ran that feature through its hoops. I understand now what you were talking about. Very, very useful feature, which for MIDI purists would be essential. I honestly never even realized that, and no one has pointed out the subtle advantage to me before. So bit by bit I think the list is getting better. But there are still a lot of holes and minor things I have to test! I'll be continuing to update it. If you spot anything, please let me know!


#62
eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 07:46:41 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Gerry


Eratu no nits or crits from me just pointing out that features alone do not make a DAW necessarily better or worse.


Agreed. There is an entire layer of subjective appeal that I can't get into within the list. I also can't go into heuristic things either... for one person, even the choice of interface colors or button placement will be better than another. So I totally agree there is a personal level that really has a massive impact on whether or not a DAW is better or worse. I guess this list would just be one more tool for someone to help them navigate options, but ultimately, they'd have to test things out for themselves.
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eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 07:50:12 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Rbh

Excellent work by the way !

Under Global transpose you reported .....

"No, however, it may be possible to create a macro with an external macro recorder (need to verify), but it would be relatively simple.

I think that Global transpose is very easy in SONAR using Interpolate.



I've updated the list to reflect Sonar's global transpose better. In fact, I clarified Cubase's as well. I failed to mention this really neat concept called a global transpose track, that lets you adjust transpose values on a sectional basis. Very, very cool. Thank you! List getting better and better.


#64
John
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 07:51:15 (permalink)
Right now you have become my new hero. This is an outstanding effort that you have undertaken. I can't tell you how proud I am of this forum. In just the past couple of days you and Bitflipper have done some really great stuff. Your effort is an ambitious one and something we have needed for way too long. It is members like you that see a need and get to work. They don't ask for some one else to do it they just do it. Well done Eratu!

I forgot to add Dean to this for another great thread for new and old alike.

If I can help in any way let me know.
post edited by John - 2008/03/30 00:25:35

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#65
eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 07:57:25 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: DaneStewart

I for one am surprised to see how well REAPER actually stacks up.




Yes, and that's not to mention the audio features, a few of which are just astonishing, that virtually no other DAW can do. For example, it's routing capabilities (cryptic for some to use, but invisible if you don't need them) are simply awesome. I think that, in part, is why Reaper has gained so much ground (and respect) in some quarters. If someone were to do a head-to-head comparison of audio features, all the big DAW companies would have to sit up and take notice on the audio features side. The MIDI features are a pale comparison for its core audio features. But still, there's a long way to go for MIDI and a few other areas, and who knows how far Justin (the main developer) is interested in taking it that way?


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eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 08:02:35 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: John

Right now you have become my new hero. This is an outstanding effort that you have undertaken. I can't tell you how proud I am of this forum. In just the past couple of days you and Bitflipper have done some really great stuff. Your effort is an ambitious one and something we have needed for way too long. It is members like you that see a need and get to work. They don't ask for some one else to do it they just do it. Well done Eratu!

If I can help in any way let me know.



Thanks, John, I appreciate that! BTW, I feel the whole Sonar wiki thing is just awesome, in my opinion. Really needed for a long time. As for this, I feel like I'm getting more out of it, since I've already learned some really amazing power tricks and subtleties of features that I never knew before. So I think this has already made me a better DAW user by an order of magnitude. :)

<backslapping> As for this forum, I'll say it again -- there are some really fantastic people here -- including you -- and I've always been impressed with this community. </backslapping>


#67
John
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 08:08:59 (permalink)
I would not have chosen the three you did to compare. Yet after thinking it over you did the right thing in doing so. Cubase would have to be in any PC DAW comparison. Reaper is the new kid on the block. To me it has not the history that Sonar or Cubase. But it is a PC app. That is backward thinking you are forward thinking here. What is even more insightful on your part is the fact that it has a new way of dealing with the whole notion of what a DAW should be. What it offers and how its development is driven. Your choice is excellent. Again, well done. We will all learn from this.
post edited by John - 2008/03/29 08:15:24

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#68
SongCraft
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 08:16:32 (permalink)
Again! Excellent comparison chart! :)

It would be interesting to see other DAW's added in there too such as Logic and Samplitude. As is it is now the choice of DAW's in the chart is good, at one end of the scale is Cubase being one that's been around for a long time then at the other end of the scale is the Reaper sort of balances it out if ya know whot I mean. Btw, I like that <backslapping> tags I might try those on my next web page update LOL!!

 
 
#69
eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 08:18:46 (permalink)
I will definitely be adding more apps, since even on a selfish level, I feel like this has been a net benefit to me already. Like I mentioned, I feel much more empowered with these apps now, and I think I can do more than I ever did before.

The choice was mainly due to interest when I started it, but I agree they seem like an unlikely grouping in some ways, considering what else is out there. But I really felt Reaper had to be part of it, since that app has deservedly earned a respect in the community for what it has accomplished in so short a time. Next up is definitely going to be Live, and then perhaps one by one I'll tackle some of the other big ones, hopefully with a lot of help from others. :)


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stanft
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 16:10:36 (permalink)
Hi everyone,

just one thing to add/correct from my side: Cubase does support "linked MIDI clips" as well. You can create this "virtual copy" by pressing the shift button during copy/duplication.

Regards,
Stephan
#71
eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 17:16:20 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: stanft

Hi everyone,

just one thing to add/correct from my side: Cubase does support "linked MIDI clips" as well. You can create this "virtual copy" by pressing the shift button during copy/duplication.

Regards,
Stephan



Stephan,

Thank you! I just tried this, and indeed, it does work! I'm so happy you commented on this, because it's bugged me in Cubase for a long time, and I couldn't recall how... and there it was, right under my nose. :) Basically, it does this with the ALT-drag feature, so you just do ALT-SHIFT-drag.... I appreciate the contribution, and I'll update the list now.


#72
mabian
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/29 18:29:18 (permalink)
eratu, amazing work: your switch to SONAR was a very welcome addition in this forum/community, I'm really happy to have such a serious and objective guy here.

Trying not to be pedant, anyway, IMHO something is not completely correct with Instrument Tracks description for SONAR:

"No - only uses Synth Rack for VSTi"

Actually, you can also add a VSTi in the FX bin of any audio track, without adding it to Synth Rack. Not a real instrument track, but anyway nearer to it than barely using Synth Rack...

- Mario


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Jose7822
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/30 01:08:02 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: mabian

eratu, amazing work: your switch to SONAR was a very welcome addition in this forum/community, I'm really happy to have such a serious and objective guy here.

Trying not to be pedant, anyway, IMHO something is not completely correct with Instrument Tracks description for SONAR:

"No - only uses Synth Rack for VSTi"

Actually, you can also add a VSTi in the FX bin of any audio track, without adding it to Synth Rack. Not a real instrument track, but anyway nearer to it than barely using Synth Rack...

- Mario






Absolutely! You can load a VSTi into an audio track and route MIDI tracks to it in Sonar. Good catch Mario!
#74
eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/30 08:39:05 (permalink)
Hi Mario, Jose,

Thanks for letting me know! I appreciate that! I did know that you could put a VSTi in a regular track, but I did NOT know you could route MIDI to it. I'll definitely update the chart, and I will go try that out myself! Very, very cool. Still not an instrument track, of course, but it is a useful feature that should be noted as an exception. The main point of an instrument track is obviously a self-contained track where MIDI and the VSTi co-exist in a single, efficient track design. I've actually made the request to Cakewalk literally a dozen times now. I REALLLLLLLLY hope it shows up in Sonar 8. I find it indispensable in other DAW apps. It keeps things incredibly lean and clean for some projects. Trust me, I do fully understand the roll of, and paradigm of the excellent Synth Rack in Sonar, and it is by far the best synth rack of any of them, particularly with the custom controls, etc., but some people really love true instrument tracks too, and I honestly think that paradigm is becoming a new standard. Many DAW/MIDI apps now have it, so I'm hoping Sonar gets it too. Just my two bits on the matter. It can't hurt, right? Anyway, I'll update the chart! Thanks, guys!


#75
John
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/30 08:52:07 (permalink)
That was the way one did it before the synth rack came along. It also had some benefits with DX-Is for remote control. That is no longer the case with the new rack for VST-Is.

The functionality is still there. CW tries to keep things the same for easy backward
compatibility.

That is also an important issue. Sonar can load any CW file from all versions past and present. Cubase can not.
post edited by John - 2008/03/30 08:56:28

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#76
eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/30 09:00:46 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: John

That is also an important issue. Sonar can load any CW file from all versions past and present. Cubase can not.



Good point.... Sonar does have a good reputation in that department, and I failed to mention that in the current list. It is crucial to some people, and relevant for MIDI users. I think I'll add that as a new item.


#77
mabian
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/30 11:38:43 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: eratu

Hi Mario, Jose,

Thanks for letting me know! I appreciate that! I did know that you could put a VSTi in a regular track, but I did NOT know you could route MIDI to it. I'll definitely update the chart, and I will go try that out myself! Very, very cool. Still not an instrument track, of course, but it is a useful feature that should be noted as an exception. The main point of an instrument track is obviously a self-contained track where MIDI and the VSTi co-exist in a single, efficient track design. I've actually made the request to Cakewalk literally a dozen times now. I REALLLLLLLLY hope it shows up in Sonar 8. I find it indispensable in other DAW apps. It keeps things incredibly lean and clean for some projects. Trust me, I do fully understand the roll of, and paradigm of the excellent Synth Rack in Sonar, and it is by far the best synth rack of any of them, particularly with the custom controls, etc., but some people really love true instrument tracks too, and I honestly think that paradigm is becoming a new standard. Many DAW/MIDI apps now have it, so I'm hoping Sonar gets it too. Just my two bits on the matter. It can't hurt, right? Anyway, I'll update the chart! Thanks, guys!


I agree real instrument tracks (together with "Replace synth..." feature) would amazingly speed up workflow with SONAR.

I just meant to do a - ok, pedant - correction about a slightly inexact description in the great giant DAW comparison page.

BTW, the fact that you can use a VSTi directly in a track FX bin (together with being able to "declare" a FX as synth in plugin manager) is currently the only way to be able to route MIDI events to FX like VST MIDI gates and so on in SONAR.

- Mario
post edited by mabian - 2008/03/30 11:58:17

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#78
Billy Buck
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/30 12:25:53 (permalink)
Hey eratu,
Great job you have done. FYI, in the section MIDI Groove Clips or MIDI Loops, you have REAPER listed as No, but it should be listed as Yes. REAPER does allow for MIDI media to be looped. It is normally enabled as such in the Item Properties (F2). For instance, when you drag & drop MIDI from such apps like EZdrummer or Addictive Drums to the REAPER timeline it automatically becomes a MIDI loop ready to be dragged out. (the clip edges become beveled).


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eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/30 16:13:34 (permalink)
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all you comments thus far! I've now updated the list just now, and it should have the key points made plus additional comments/notes as I've tested and recalled my own experiences with the apps. Thanks again, and keep comments flowing if you spot something out of whack!

Regards,
Eratu


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rm5700@optonline.net
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/30 16:35:25 (permalink)
Good job on this! The only thing I noticed I might think isn't quite right is Autopan not exactly being in Sonar...

Couldn't that just be an "auto"mated mix thing if you wanted?

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eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/30 20:12:59 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: rm5700@optonline.net

Good job on this! The only thing I noticed I might think isn't quite right is Autopan not exactly being in Sonar...

Couldn't that just be an "auto"mated mix thing if you wanted?



Hi rm5700, thanks! Autopan is in the MIDI PLUGINS section, and unless I missed it, there isn't any autopan MIDI plugin in Sonar, but I did mention there may be a CAL script for it. In Cubase, there's a fairly decent MIDI plugin for that operation. Let me know if you know of a plugin in Sonar though. As for doing it in the mix, that's something else entirely! :)


#82
Jose7822
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/30 20:19:08 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: eratu


ORIGINAL: rm5700@optonline.net

Good job on this! The only thing I noticed I might think isn't quite right is Autopan not exactly being in Sonar...

Couldn't that just be an "auto"mated mix thing if you wanted?



Hi rm5700, thanks! Autopan is in the MIDI PLUGINS section, and unless I missed it, there isn't any autopan MIDI plugin in Sonar, but I did mention there may be a CAL script for it. In Cubase, there's a fairly decent MIDI plugin for that operation. Let me know if you know of a plugin in Sonar though. As for doing it in the mix, that's something else entirely! :)



Hey Eratu,

No, Sonar doesn't come with an Auto-Pan MIDI plugin, so you're good there. I agree that doing this in the mix doesn't count cause any DAW with automation capabilities could do that (and that's pretty much all of them).


Take care!
#83
kwgm
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/30 22:59:28 (permalink)
Hi Eratu,

Not sure what you mean by no MIDI Control. It's not done with a plugin, but in the piano roll one can add any MIDI CC row and add data, either manually or through capture. Not limited to 8 values, either.



--kwgm
#84
eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/31 00:23:36 (permalink)
It's a plugin feature in Cubase (a minor one at that), and you'd know what I mean as a Cubase user when you pull up the plugin in question, but I plan on clarifying a little more and adding info about what you're talking about, which is a different issue altogether. But Sonar doesn't have the same thing, obviously, and it's just a bit cryptic the way I put it right now. I frankly have to put a number of items in about automation in general, as much as I wanted to avoid it, it's highly relevant to MIDI. So what you speak of is something I have to add in detail -- each DAW app has such a different approach, some of them really affect MIDI. Like I said, it's a work in progress! :) Thank you for reminding me to do it. A couple of other people in another forum suggest I discuss automation issues related to what you're talking about too.


#85
Susan G
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/31 00:32:37 (permalink)
Hi Carlos-
OK, did anyone mention FL Studio? I've heard that it has a great MIDI editor (relatively speaking, of course) . I'd love to see how it stacks up on this grid!

+1!

And eratu-
Thanks so much for this -- excellent job! If you do decide to tackle/include another app, I think FL Studio would be a very good candidate.

-Susan

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#86
calaverasgrandes
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/31 01:39:36 (permalink)
dang, I hate to be a naysayer, but I think a slightly more verbose description of the audio features would be in order. I use Midi and VSTs all the friggin time. But I record stuff along with those tracks too! I also think its one of the things sonar excels in, and what a lot fo folks like Reaper for.

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#87
My Favorites
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/31 07:09:46 (permalink)
Eratu says:

Cakewalk MIDI sequencer, one of the first (if not the actual first) PC MIDI sequencers in the 1980s. Cubase, which ran on the Atari ST in 1989

What i know is cakewalk founded 1987

It says in the web site: Steinberg has been a motor of innovation in the audio industry since 1984 (Pro-16, the first software product to carry the Steinberg name.)


Can you explain more?


click image
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John
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/31 07:18:23 (permalink)
On a PC. Steinberg's stuff did not run on a PC. Same with Logic. They came to the PC later.

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eratu
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RE: The Giant DAW MIDI Comparison Page - Sonar, Cubase and Reaper compared 2008/03/31 07:42:05 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Susan G

Hi Carlos-
OK, did anyone mention FL Studio? I've heard that it has a great MIDI editor (relatively speaking, of course) . I'd love to see how it stacks up on this grid!

+1!

And eratu-
Thanks so much for this -- excellent job! If you do decide to tackle/include another app, I think FL Studio would be a very good candidate.

-Susan



Hi Susan, FL Studio is definitely on the list -- I'll consider that a vote for it! Next up is Live 7!


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