The Official Staff View enhancement thread now with summary!

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vicsant
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/06/14 20:24:42 (permalink)
It is one of the last remaining insufficiently implemented features that keeps me looking at other DAWs. Again, not because I want to use Sonar as a fully featured scoring program (although it would be nice to at least be able to print one-stave leadsheets with a melody line containing all the triplets, rests, ties etc where I want them), but as an editing and composing tool for playing around with different variations and concepts. In the end, for things like exact note durations, and controller parameters, I might still end up using the piano roll. But for me (and that might be different for everyone else) staff notation is a very good way of representing the concepts and structures behind a piece of music and a concrete arrangement.


Excellent post, Chris

#91
vicsant
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/06/14 20:29:58 (permalink)
But, if you look at the Sonar producer features, it is even not mentioned..


That's because there have been no improvements for the past 10+ years...there's really nothing to brag about in Sonar's notation features
#92
John
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/06/17 04:03:59 (permalink)
I have sent in the summary to CW.
post edited by John - 2009/06/17 11:11:11

Best
John
#93
riojazz
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/06/17 09:30:03 (permalink)
Thank you, John.

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#94
mudgel
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/06/17 09:45:56 (permalink)
I hope Cakewalk enjoy the warm weather you've sent them John.
I for one wouldn't mind if it was a bit summery here.
It's a bit wintery down here in Australia.
post edited by mudgel - 2009/06/17 09:56:43

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#95
John
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/06/17 09:49:04 (permalink)
Boston is wet today and so are we. LOL We can use the rain though. I had no idea you were downunder Mike.

Best
John
#96
mudgel
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/06/17 10:03:30 (permalink)
Yeh. I'm down under alright. just have a look,
See!

There I am.

Down there.

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Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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John
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/06/17 10:08:59 (permalink)
One of the very best countries in my opinion. I have a great deal of respect for Australia and its people.

Best
John
#98
riojazz
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/06/17 10:40:59 (permalink)
He's having fun with "summery" versus "summary".

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#99
John
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/06/17 10:59:57 (permalink)
Thanks for pointing the error. I will correct it now.

Best
John
#100
pbognar
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/06/17 12:49:05 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: John

I have sent in the summary to CW.


Thanks for your work, John.

It's got me thinking that given that SV improvements probably won't make it into version 9, what could CW possibly have up their sleeves for September...
#101
garyhb
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Re: Staff view guitar requests 2009/09/15 08:21:53 (permalink)
Hi

I use the score a lot and it really hasn't changed much in years. Basically it's fine, and I know that Sonar isn't primarily a teaching tool, but I teach it in college and score music for students.  Since notation is rather essential to music, I'm surprised it's gotten so little attention. I'm not looking for the depth of Sibelius, but just the following would be great...!

These are my mainly guitar-related requests: 

  1. To show the fretting-finger number beside notes on the staff - as in classical notation
  2. To show roman numerals for hand position on the chords and staff
  3. Show text (e.g. for playing instructions/publishing details etc) in user-defined headers/footer for publication
  4. Improved interaction between fretboard and staff e.g. clicking on a note shows the fretted note
  5. An improved chord properties dialog - chord selection would be much faster if shapes were displayed on a grid/chart for visual inspection, rather than scrolling down a list. The grid could have tabbed sheets (like excel) or filtering to make searching and scanning chord-shapes easier.
  6. To show the fretting-finger numbers on the chord shapes

Thanks

Gary HB
post edited by garyhb - 2009/09/15 08:30:11

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#102
mbunkerusa
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Re: Staff view guitar requests 2009/12/18 16:23:50 (permalink)
Cakewalk used to own Geniesoft's Overture once upon a time. Don Williams has done a lot of great work on many serious improvements since he took it over. WIBNI Overture could be brought back into Sonar as a full-fledged score editor to replace the tiny score view. It could be used as a primary music entry tool. It could be used either as a track viewer or a MIDI source, like a series of tracks in the sequencer, blocked as a group. AND, Overture uses the Cakewalk instrument definition files. How cool is that?

The biggest mods would be to disable the VST audio engine and the VST instrument rack, and patch it into the Sonar synth tracks, make some improvements to the XML import/export. Fix a few lingering bugs and voila, you have the most intuitive full-featured score editor hooked back into Sonar.

I love Overture. It is my only sequencing tool because I don't play any instrument well. If I had a good score-based entry tool for Sonar, I would use it all the time. As it is, I keep upgrading my Sonar Pro, but I have no use for it. So I use Overture to create MIDI tracks and to play them over MIDI, USB, or the VST rack.

I'm sure that Don could use a few extra bucks in royalty for the rework, and Sonar users would have a truly fine score engine with really decent printing features. That's my vote.
-Mike
post edited by mbunkerusa - 2009/12/18 17:13:20
#103
daveny5
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/12/18 23:09:03 (permalink)
Cakewalk's solution for people who want better notation is the Notation Elite version of Sonar 8.5 that contains the Notion software as a plug-in. That's it. They will not be updating the notation that comes with the program.

Dave
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#104
ducatibruce2
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/12/19 00:50:14 (permalink)
Notation Elite version of Sonar 8.5 that contains the Notion software as a plug-in.

 
Just to be pedantic - Notion is a separate application that connects via Rewire (transport control & audio out of Notion only) so you have all your midi & notation in Notion and your audio in Sonar as more or less separate projects. 
 
Just trying to make sure people's expectations are met - mine certainly weren't when I bought it.

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daveny5
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/12/19 09:27:39 (permalink)
ducatibruce2



Notation Elite version of Sonar 8.5 that contains the Notion software as a plug-in.

 
Just to be pedantic - Notion is a separate application that connects via Rewire (transport control & audio out of Notion only) so you have all your midi & notation in Notion and your audio in Sonar as more or less separate projects. 
 
Just trying to make sure people's expectations are met - mine certainly weren't when I bought it.


Well, perhaps if the Notation version sells enough, Cakewalk may integrate it more with Sonar.

Dave
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#106
John
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/12/19 10:57:20 (permalink)
We were told that CW is looking into this. The way it was phased was it wont be in the next (8.5) version. At the time 8.5 was not due out, thus it could be in the 9 version My thinking is it may be in Sonar 9. The Notion approach is just a stop gap. However do not hold me to this. 

Best
John
#107
Sepheritoh
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2009/12/19 11:05:38 (permalink)
I have done a fair amount of work with Notion3 that comes with the Cakewalk notation elite buy. If Cake wants to improve the staff view, they must put all the functionality that currently resides in Notion right inside Sonar.

My web site at the Dog-on-blues studio
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#108
Brett
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2010/04/11 11:27:12 (permalink)
I want to add my voice to the requests for staff improvement. I'm studying music and have to submit pdf versions of my work in addition to the audio. It doesn't have to be to Finale/Sibelius levels, just a basic lead sheet or simple score. It doesn't have to be published, it's just for my lecturer and fellow students to read.

Printing of score needs to be improved. Sonar 8 has a bug that changing the score size does not refresh the preview screen. Also very important is the ability to print a range of measures, for example to print just a verse, chorus or instrument break. Now I have to save the project and delete the measures either side. Printing direct to PDF would be nice, there is no licensing issue.

I've been going through the staff view threads and I haven't seen anyone mention lyrics and the lyrics view. The way this behaves is bizarre and must be full of bugs. If you copy/cut lyrics they pick up the related notes as well; pasting adds extra notes which can't be then undone. The only way I can work with lyrics is to keep the lyrics separately in Notepad, make changes there, delete existing all lyrics in lyric view, and paste in from notepad.

I've been a loyal customer since Cakewalk 9 and I've decided I'm not going to buy any more versions until this staff and lyrics is improved.That's not going to hurt Cakewalk, but after fighting with the staff view every weekend to do my assignments, I'm not prepared to spend any more money on it. I don't need another tube warmth compressor or vintage EQ, I need my life to be easier.

Brett
post edited by Brett - 2010/04/11 22:59:48
#109
Geoffrey
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Re:The Official Staff View enhancement thread now with summary! 2010/04/11 11:43:27 (permalink)
I second
1)  Tied triplets and other tuplets.
2)  Stave wrap
3)  Zooming should work as in other views (separate horizontal and vertical zooms?)
How many of you would pay extra for a version of sonar with enhanced staff view, i.e., competitive with or at least somewhat lilke notation programs?  I would.

#110
John
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2010/04/11 11:43:59 (permalink)
Very good points Brett. Lyrics View could use a rewrite for sure.

Best
John
#111
Brett
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Re:The Official Staff View enhancement thread now with summary! 2010/04/11 11:55:03 (permalink)
Geoffrey

How many of you would pay extra for a version of sonar with enhanced staff view, i.e., competitive with or at least somewhat lilke notation programs?  I would.


I will probably end up buying the cheapest version of Finale, Sibelius or Notion (Protege?) which cost less than $100  (my needs are modest). However I'd be quite happy to pay $100 or more for something that could read and write Sonar project files.

Brett

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vintagevibe
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Re:The Official Staff View enhancement thread now with summary! 2010/04/11 12:21:25 (permalink)
Cakewalk have said that it would be a major time consuming project.  I'm hoping that this long time between major releases has been used to improve notation.  I'm on 8.3.1 and I  don't think I'll upgrade until Sonar has usable notation.
#113
LpMike75
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RE: The Official Staff View enhacnement thread! 2010/04/11 13:43:55 (permalink)
I wont repeat the many of great suggestions already
Ive also suggested in other threads random ideas for small improvements, such as, always being able to see the tracks title on the left.  Sometimes while you scroll it disappears.  Maybe even color coordinated staffs/notes that coorespond with your track. 
 
Personally I would love to see a FULL Notation program inside of Sonar!  Talk about groundbreaking.  I have no doubts one of the major DAW software companies WILL be released with a full notation program in the near future, I would rather it be Sonar.  Alot of us actually do use Staff view frequently, and to add on top of that, there are many others that use Sonar with Sylibus/Finale/Notion, so it's not like a feature for a small minority as some would have you believe.  At this point, I also have no reason to upgrade until a staff view enhancement is in full swing.
-Mike


post edited by LpMike75 - 2010/04/11 13:45:38


- Mike
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#114
John
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RE: The Official Staff View enhacnement thread! 2010/04/11 13:54:27 (permalink)
Vintagevibe I would be very disappointed if Sonar 9 does not feature a brand new Staff View.

Best
John
#115
Susan G
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RE: The Oficial SV enhacment thread! 2010/04/11 15:38:10 (permalink)
Well, perhaps if the Notation version sells enough, Cakewalk may integrate it more with Sonar.

It's no longer available as a bundle.

-Susan

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#116
Susan G
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RE: The Official Staff View enhacnement thread! 2010/04/11 15:48:54 (permalink)
Hi Mike-
Personally I would love to see a FULL Notation program inside of Sonar! Talk about groundbreaking. I have no doubts one of the major DAW software companies WILL be released with a full notation program in the near future, I would rather it be Sonar.

I respectfully disagree! Even the "Big Dogs" in notation software can't keep up with User FRs, and they cost a relative bundle, not to mention the resources they consume! Notation can get very sophisticated, and I don't expect CW to compete with Finale, Sibelius, et. al.

I'd be happy if the next release includes at least some much-requested improvements, but I don't expect the moon.

-Susan

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#117
riojazz
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RE: The Official Staff View enhacnement thread! 2010/04/11 15:52:37 (permalink)
I agree with Susan.  Basic functionality in notation view would be sufficient.  It is also the only feature for which I would want to upgrade at this point.


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#118
John
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RE: The Official Staff View enhacnement thread! 2010/04/11 16:17:03 (permalink)
I'll hope for the world but expect a grain of sand.
post edited by John - 2010/04/11 17:02:17

Best
John
#119
noldar12
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RE: The Official Staff View enhacnement thread! 2010/04/11 16:36:28 (permalink)
We can keep hoping...

While Notion seems to be making some good strides, it is still not ready for "prime time" in terms of its output quality (though it certainly is in terms of VST integration).

For me Cakewalk's optional "bundle" was not an option.  One still had to deal with two different programs, and one can do that using either Finale or Sibelius.

As others have said, I don't expect a staff view equal to the major notation programs.  But, a view that still cannot handle basic triplets...

Eventually I will be needing to do some serious midi mockups, and will be needing to regain (and learn) more Sonar related skills.  But, much as I would prefer to work within one program, Sonar's notation is so poor, I have long since had to go elsewhere (since I prefer to work in notation), though I have continued to update my copy of Sonar.  I too, would have to say that unless the notation view is improved, I will have to seriously look at ceasing purchasing upgrades.

Jim
#120
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