Helpful ReplyThe fastest way to quantize multitrack drums in SONAR without stretching audio? Questions

Author
hubertous
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 42
  • Joined: 2011/01/28 15:18:39
  • Status: offline
2017/04/17 17:37:26 (permalink)

The fastest way to quantize multitrack drums in SONAR without stretching audio? Questions

Hello guys! Sorry for any English language/grammar mistakes, I'm from Poland. Recently I have a lot of drum recordings to edit and I want to ask which method you use to edit drum timing? I'm talking about editing every kick/snare/tom hit (sometimes even hi hat and some cymbals from overhead tracks) to the grid so it's perfeectly in time. I know it's pretty easy and simple in Pro Tools using Beat Detective but I have no idea how to achieve the same results in sonar. I'm dealing with a lot of fast double kick rock and metal drummers and it's crucial to have everything very tight timing-wise and also I tend to spend way too much time editing drums to achieve best possible quality.
The way I use daily is grouping all of the drums tracks together and slip edit (zoom in and alt+LMB just before the transient and scroll further), then I select all of the clips I have split and quantize them to proper rhythm value for example 1/16 first 8 bars and 1/32 for drum fills or triplet 1/32 when they happen and fade the clips (2ms and 80ms max gap) in the quantization command menu. Then I check if it's quantized properly and if there are not any  audio artifacts or clicks/pops.  Then I adjust fades properly or move the notes manually when they should be. Next I bounce this edited section and start to edit next section etc. If I don't bounce it Sonar will soon start to lag a LOT when hundreads of fades are sitting next to each other. 
It works great but it's too time-consuming!
The method I tried to learn recently is using AudioSnap (select transient markers from kick, snare and toms and apply the position of every marker to overhead tracks, then split beats into clips and quantize but I have some issues with it!
First of all, the transient markers are not where they should be and it splits clips somewhere in the middle of each transient instead before them but it's not the biggest problem because I can manually fix this pretty fast. The problem is that the start of each transient isn't the same distance from the grid line after quantization! It makes quantization useless because it's still not in time completely and it sounds wrong as well.
The second, even bigger problem I face is that I don't know what to do when I have the drum beat where snare, kick drum and toms are playing together (well.. almost together, because each transient is slightly or less slightly off each other) and Audiosnap will split this "one -hit of 3 drum elements" into 3 ultra-short clips which shouldn't be moved because that would completely damage the recording. If I quantize this section they all will snap to the same place and it's just a mess with clicks and pops and transients are damaged. 
How can I make the Audiosnap "see" only the first transient from the group of elements (snare, toms, kick) and split drum tracks only in one place even when it's seeing multiple transients very close next to each other? Something like a "resolution setting" (or something like that.. for example 1/8, 1/4, 1/16 etc.) for "split beats into clips" in Audiosnap so it chooses the first happening transient (every eight note as example) and ignores other transients which are very close to it so the phase relationships are maintained and this issue doesn't exist anymore? Is it even possible? Or is there any other way around it (without using manual slip-editing) which I don't know about yet? Can anybody help me with that???   Thank you in advance!

Sonar Platinum, Windows 10 x64, Intel i5 6600K CPU, 16GB RAM DDR4 Corsair, 512GB SSD Crucial, 2TB Hard Drive Seagate, Apollo Twin Duo
#1
reginaldStjohn
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 485
  • Joined: 2011/01/15 23:42:50
  • Status: offline
Re: The fastest way to quantize multitrack drums in SONAR without stretching audio? Questi 2017/04/17 19:22:30 (permalink)
I don't know if I can answer all your questions but here is how I have approached drum timing using audiosnap.
 
First I make sure all my drum tracks are grouped and then I go through each track making sure that all the transient markers are in the right place and spurious ones are deleted. Now with all drum tracks selected I can use one of my overhead tracks as a reference and double click on a transient marker. This selects all transient markers across all drum tracks within a user setable time window. I then drag the transient marker so that the kick/snare/top etc. are on the grid. This does not mean that all the tracks will have the transient marker on the grid. The overheads and room mics will probably be behind the grid because there is some natural time delay between the close mic and those other mics.
 
If you select the "percussion" (or drum) setting in the audio snap toolbar it supposedly doesn't stretch but actually moves the audio. You can use quantize without splitting all the transients into clips but either way you will have to check that the quantize didn't do funny things.
 
Just my opinion, but with fast double bass parts I would not try to quantize each hit but would rather try to quantize groups of them.
 
for more detail please see this video which explains better what i tried to describe.
 
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Advanced-Workshop-Modern-Drum-Production
 

AMD Phenom II x6, 8 GB Ram, 2 Internal SATA III HD
Windows 10
Presonus Studio Live 16.0.2 Interface/Mixer
Cakewalk Sonar Platinum
Line6 Helix Guitar Processor 
Custom Made (El Bandito) Telecaster
LTD ESP EC-1000
PRS El Torrero SE
#2
bluzdog
Max Output Level: -56 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1928
  • Joined: 2007/10/06 17:15:14
  • Location: Lakewood, Colorado
  • Status: offline
Re: The fastest way to quantize multitrack drums in SONAR without stretching audio? Questi 2017/04/17 22:24:29 (permalink)
Here's what I do if I have to:
It’s important that all the edits and cuts happen at the exact same place on each of the multi-tracked drum tracks to maintain phase coherency.
Make sure they all have the same transient markers. It’s better to chop them up and move the slices around.
Disable the transient markers on the overheads (right click select all -> right click over a marker and disable). Work with the close mic sounds as the source for establishing transients.
Select all the drum tracks. Right click on any track, choose merge and lock markers. Little yellow locks will show up on the clips. All the transient markers from all the drum tracks are copied to each drum track. All the drums share identical transient markers.
The next step is to unlock the clips. Switch back to clip view on all the drum tracks (control + shift + click and select clip). Right click in the background select clip lock and uncheck lock position.
 Switch back to audio transient view. The yellow locks should be off.
Call up the Audiosnap palette and select split beats to clips. Now that the clips are split you can use the quantize process. Process -> Quantize -> select a note value (1/8th) under resolution and audio clip start times under change. Leave auto Xfade times and fill gap checked ( 20ms and 80ms). Click OK.
To quantize the guitar to the drums call up the audiosnap palette choose audiosnap beats. Choose note value (16th) click OK.
 
Rocky
#3
gbowling
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 315
  • Joined: 2009/02/25 20:36:32
  • Status: offline
Re: The fastest way to quantize multitrack drums in SONAR without stretching audio? Questi 2017/04/18 14:01:41 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby hubertous 2017/04/23 23:04:07
Question, why do you want to do it without stretching audio? 
 
I do this a lot and I used to split the clips and do it this way, but splitting the clips into a million little pieces and trying to work with it caused me nothing but headaches. Over time I've learned that stretching the clips works better for me and if you set you offline rendering algorithm to radius advanced and bounce the clips at the end, it all works flawlessly. You have to take care to keep everything in phase, stretching all the tracks together.
 
In either method, the first step is to get the audio transients set correctly. The best way to do this is with a gate. Lord Tim, a user here, did a great job of detailing out how to do this in this thread:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Tightening-multitracked-real-drumkit-by-using-AudioSnap-anyone-using-on-regular-basis-m3387974.aspx#3388977
 
Lord Tim is involved in exactly the type of music you're describing and his drum sounds are killer. I would go through that thread and try that method.
 
Thanks, gabo

___________________________________
The Moderns
https://www.facebook.com/TheModerns.US
https://themoderns1.bandcamp.com/
#4
hubertous
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 42
  • Joined: 2011/01/28 15:18:39
  • Status: offline
Re: The fastest way to quantize multitrack drums in SONAR without stretching audio? Questi 2017/04/23 23:16:44 (permalink)
gbowling
Question, why do you want to do it without stretching audio? 
 
I do this a lot and I used to split the clips and do it this way, but splitting the clips into a million little pieces and trying to work with it caused me nothing but headaches. Over time I've learned that stretching the clips works better for me and if you set you offline rendering algorithm to radius advanced and bounce the clips at the end, it all works flawlessly. You have to take care to keep everything in phase, stretching all the tracks together.
 
In either method, the first step is to get the audio transients set correctly. The best way to do this is with a gate. Lord Tim, a user here, did a great job of detailing out how to do this in this thread:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Tightening-multitracked-real-drumkit-by-using-AudioSnap-anyone-using-on-regular-basis-m3387974.aspx#3388977
 
Lord Tim is involved in exactly the type of music you're describing and his drum sounds are killer. I would go through that thread and try that method.
 
Thanks, gabo


Thank you very much for your response! Is 'radious advanced' best-sounding algorithm for drums in your opinion? Have you compared this to the 'radius-mix'? Are there any major differences quality-wise?

Sonar Platinum, Windows 10 x64, Intel i5 6600K CPU, 16GB RAM DDR4 Corsair, 512GB SSD Crucial, 2TB Hard Drive Seagate, Apollo Twin Duo
#5
gbowling
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 315
  • Joined: 2009/02/25 20:36:32
  • Status: offline
Re: The fastest way to quantize multitrack drums in SONAR without stretching audio? Questi 2017/04/23 23:56:47 (permalink)
To be honest, I can't really tell much difference. I always use radius advanced just because it's what I've always used and I haven't had any issues. I think radius-mix would probably give equally good results for drums.
 
With a good drummer, the stretching is very minimal so it's not like you're wildly moving things around.
 
gabo

___________________________________
The Moderns
https://www.facebook.com/TheModerns.US
https://themoderns1.bandcamp.com/
#6
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1