John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 11:29:33
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Well, let's say I have something very global, a reverb bus for example, that I'm sending all kinds of stuff to. It's a (minor) headache to have to manage that. Let's say I'm using that reverb on, I dunno, both backing vocals and maybe keyboards. I want to bring up the backing vocals group at one point, but not the keyboards group. So I don't want to mess with the level of that reverb. See what I mean?
Like I say, it's not a big deal, and there are all kinds of architectures of a mix you could employ that wouldn't present that issue.
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 11:33:20
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lfm
John T
lfm
My example of simple one fader doing a jump from 0dB to -8dB, and let's say a send at -12dB on that postfader - already create a change in dry/wet without we thinking so much about it.
I think I must be misunderstanding you, because on the face of it, this is simply wrong.
You bring down the dry signal of the original track. The send on the track is post-fader. Therefore, whatever reduction you applied to the track is also applied to the send, and the wet/dry ratio is preserved. Or do you mean something else?
I am saying that is the misconception I lived by until I started studying what VCA's are about.
Why is there an issue automating volume and not sends?
So you are saying that 0dB dry plus a -12dB wet give the same ratio as -8dB dry and -20dB wet?
0dB example
(1/1)+(1/22) = 1.046 result of dry+wet.
Ratio wet is 0.045/1.046=0.0434
-8dB example
(1/18)+(1/26)=0.094
Ratio wet is 0.0385/0.094=0.409
Please correct me if I did something wrong.
I believe it to be correct thinking - part of wet in the resulting mix dry+wet.
I don't think I understand those maths at all. Where are you getting the numbers from in the first place? 1/22, 1/18 etc?
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 12:20:26
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To come back to this: lfm
So you are saying that 0dB dry plus a -12dB wet give the same ratio as -8dB dry and -20dB wet?
Yes. That's exactly how the decibel system works. It's a relative scale, not an absolute one. ie: a change of 5dB is a change of a *factor* of 5 from the original signal. There is no decibel unit as such.
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John
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 12:48:44
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A Bell is the unit of measure. A decibel is one tenth of a Bell.
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 12:57:38
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Well, sure but neither of them are an absolute amount, in the sense that lfm's maths seem to assume (again, I might have misunderstood, but that's how it looks to me).
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tenfoot
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 13:47:12
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lfm
Sending -12dB send on 0dB fader, is not the same ratio dry/wet as doing -12dB on -8dB fader.
.......is based on a very diferent premise to: [ lfm
So you are saying that 0dB dry plus a -12dB wet give the same ratio as -8dB dry and -20dB wet?
At least the concept of a post fader send is finally present in your numbers now Lars, but it isn't great form to just redraw the lines of your argument without some acknowledgement of concession.  I still don't think your numbers are quite right though. If the post fade send was set to 0db and the fader was set to 0db, the 8db reduction would indeed be linear. Given that the post fade send is set to -12db to begin with, wouldn't the reduction in level on the post fade send be a percentage of the -8 db calculated by the ratio of the two initial values? Pretty damned sure those post fade ratios are going to stay constant, given that that's their entire purpose. As I said before there are a couple of slight advantages to 'VCA faders' in protools relating to automation. This just is not one of them.
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jmasno5
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 13:58:38
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No, it makes no sense to open your wallet if you know there's nothing in the updates you like or will use. That said, I know they will eventually have something I like. Although, it may be months after my renewal is up. I do like the current setup.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 14:17:42
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John T
Well, let's say I have something very global, a reverb bus for example, that I'm sending all kinds of stuff to. It's a (minor) headache to have to manage that. Let's say I'm using that reverb on, I dunno, both backing vocals and maybe keyboards. I want to bring up the backing vocals group at one point, but not the keyboards group. So I don't want to mess with the level of that reverb. See what I mean?
So if I understand correctly, it seems the two solutions as they stand with SONAR would be... - Have the vocal reverb sends go to a bus (or aux track) that feeds the reverb rather than directly to the reverb itself. The vocal tracks themselves would go into a bus feeding the master. If you group the vocal reverb send bus and the vocal tracks bus, you could raise/lower the vocals and the vocal reverb sends, changes in one would track the other due to both following a ratiometric relationship, and you wouldn't have to touch anything on the reverb itself.
- Group the vocal track levels and the send levels as one group so they all track each other.
Correct? So...I assume the appeal of VCA control is that through some sort of magic mojo, you wouldn't need separate groups for the vocal tracks themselves and for the vocal reverb sends. Correct?
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 14:48:47
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Yeah, that's basically it. It's a very slightly simpler way of doing something that can already be done.
Like I say, I'm not personally bothered about it. But I was trying to think of actual benefits of the feature, and that's the only thing I could really come up with.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 15:07:50
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John T
Yeah, that's basically it. It's a very slightly simpler way of doing something that can already be done.
Like I say, I'm not personally bothered about it. But I was trying to think of actual benefits of the feature, and that's the only thing I could really come up with.
Great, thanks for working through this with me. I was starting to think I was missing out on some game-changing feature because I just didn't see all this great value in it. Now I know why I don't 
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 15:50:15
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2016/04/26 16:12:25
John T
I don't think I understand those maths at all. Where are you getting the numbers from in the first place? 1/22, 1/18 etc?
I'm glad you don't - meaning at least one of us is not mental. I took log on dB number and got it backwards. This example will not proove my point - that I thought I figured out. I applied immediately for a spot in an elderly home today... 
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 16:01:51
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Anderton
John T
Yeah, that's basically it. It's a very slightly simpler way of doing something that can already be done.
Like I say, I'm not personally bothered about it. But I was trying to think of actual benefits of the feature, and that's the only thing I could really come up with.
Great, thanks for working through this with me. I was starting to think I was missing out on some game-changing feature because I just didn't see all this great value in it. Now I know why I don't
That's good to know - it will never happend in Sonar - all we need to know. And everybody else that implemented it did it for nothing too - does anybody really think that... As I see it, it's not about that absolutely cannot do something - it's about how much work it takes to accomplish things. And a tool that assist you simplifying things...
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John
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 16:24:39
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Ifm I don't want you to feel we are piling up on you. I think you have handled yourself well. You've kept it on a high level. I support the idea that if CW were to implement it I would not be opposed to it.
It certainly wouldn't hurt anyone.
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 16:29:41
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lfm
Anderton
John T
Yeah, that's basically it. It's a very slightly simpler way of doing something that can already be done.
Like I say, I'm not personally bothered about it. But I was trying to think of actual benefits of the feature, and that's the only thing I could really come up with.
Great, thanks for working through this with me. I was starting to think I was missing out on some game-changing feature because I just didn't see all this great value in it. Now I know why I don't
That's good to know - it will never happend in Sonar - all we need to know.
And everybody else that implemented it did it for nothing too - does anybody really think that...
As I see it, it's not about that absolutely cannot do something - it's about how much work it takes to accomplish things. And a tool that assist you simplifying things...
Well, I think the thing there is that some other DAWs don't have as sophisticated track grouping as Sonar does. They're just slightly different approaches to achieving broadly the same thing. This is be expected across different daws / mixing desks / whatever.
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BMOG
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 17:52:47
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The OP I am glad to see someone else feels the way I do, I am watching and paying attention but I have not seen anything work paying for that I don't already have in the update of Platinum before my subscription ran out in march. Platinum is solid as ever to me
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 18:22:17
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☄ Helpfulby joel77 2016/04/30 21:47:24
lfm
That's good to know - it will never happend in Sonar - all we need to know. I don't think anyone from Cakewalk said it will never happen in SONAR, but I could have missed something... And everybody else that implemented it did it for nothing too - does anybody really think that... Of course not, they implemented it to solve a specific limitation in their DAWs (e.g., Pro Tools 7.2) and/or offer an alternative workflow. The relevant question to me is how much or little benefit SONAR users would derive from adding it. As I see it, it's not about that absolutely cannot do something - it's about how much work it takes to accomplish things. And a tool that assist you simplifying things... I agree, but you have to weigh the pros and cons. The examples given of VCA grouping applications don't seem particularly common. If adding VCA-style grouping is something that Noel can do in an afternoon, great - then it doesn't matter if only a handful of people use it on rare occasions. But if it would be difficult to do, given that SONAR already has sophisticated grouping options, I think it's legitimate to question whether the benefits would justify the resources needed to re-structure SONAR's existing grouping paradigm.
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 18:31:19
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☄ Helpfulby tenfoot 2016/04/26 21:49:19
Anderton
But if it would be difficult to do, given that SONAR already has sophisticated grouping options, I think it's legitimate to question whether the benefits would justify the resources needed to re-structure SONAR's existing grouping paradigm.
That's the area I was batting towards with my example earlier. And I think (might be wrong here) that adding a function that makes grouped tracks follow a single automation line to the existing group system means we'd then have everything a VCA system could do. Because we already do have most of it. Indeed, in terms of how VCA is typically implemented on a desk, this would only need to apply to volume fader automation. So that might well be a trivial addition, where "give me the same VCA implementation as DAW X" probably isn't.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 19:02:36
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John T
That's the area I was batting towards with my example earlier. And I think (might be wrong here) that adding a function that makes grouped tracks follow a single automation line to the existing group system means we'd then have everything a VCA system could do. Because we already do have most of it.
Indeed, in terms of how VCA is typically implemented on a desk, this would only need to apply to volume fader automation.
So that might well be a trivial addition, where "give me the same VCA implementation as DAW X" probably isn't.
That's pretty clever.
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 19:07:24
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 20:41:10
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☄ Helpfulby John T 2016/04/26 21:18:53
John T
Anderton
But if it would be difficult to do, given that SONAR already has sophisticated grouping options, I think it's legitimate to question whether the benefits would justify the resources needed to re-structure SONAR's existing grouping paradigm.
That's the area I was batting towards with my example earlier. And I think (might be wrong here) that adding a function that makes grouped tracks follow a single automation line to the existing group system means we'd then have everything a VCA system could do. Because we already do have most of it.
Indeed, in terms of how VCA is typically implemented on a desk, this would only need to apply to volume fader automation.
So that might well be a trivial addition, where "give me the same VCA implementation as DAW X" probably isn't.
That's the part I really fell in love with regarding VCA's in Cubase and ProTools, watching youtube videos - ability to apply trim automation to a range of tracks in one go. You get one automation line for the sum of original automation on track and VCA and one line still for the original automation if it exist. If no automation exist - VCA automation is copied as is into track. Then when you feel you are done for now - you select combine and all automation curves are summed, and VCA master curve is a straight line again. In ProTools called coalesce. Cubase has a similar thing for trim automation - you get two curves until you freeze what you did. Offset mode in Sonar, as I recall, you did not really see what you did, and you don't feel in control. Just to visually see what you did in the process is really cool. So let's say you can create an empty track and add to grouped tracks, and just mark that as master - and do the automation on that one that other combine with. Audio stuff can be disabled for simplicity. The nesting part of VCA's are not there - but improvements are always improvements.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 21:45:54
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lfm
Offset mode in Sonar, as I recall, you did not really see what you did, and you don't feel in control.
Just to visually see what you did in the process is really cool.
You can also do this in SONAR. However, you need to realize there are two offset options. You can offset automation in as many tracks as you want, and see the automation curves themselves (as well as the faders or other associated controls) reflect the changes you make. Furthermore, you can do this with different automation curves (even curves for different parameters!) at the same time, even on different tracks, with a single mouse click+drag. This kind of offsetting affects the faders and such when you haven't placed SONAR specifically in offset mode. So with this second type of offset, you are actually offsetting the levels of the faders themselves. The main offset mode (and of course, you can group faders in offset mode) leaves the automation envelopes alone, so it's designed for making level tweaks when the automation is already doing what you want to do, and you just want to add or subtract a constant from the automation. For an example of the power of the second offset mode, suppose you have one automation curve changing a soft synth's level, and another controlling its filter cutoff. When you want the offset the level lower, you also want to offset the filter cutoff lower. On a different track, you have a second soft synth, but when you bring down its level you want less LFO modulation. You can move/offset all of these envelopes at once, or whatever envelopes or portions of envelopes are selected, with a single mouse click+drag.
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John T
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 22:03:16
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I've got to say, I personally have always found offset mode confusing and painful to work with. And on the rare occasions when I turn it on by accident, I find myself horribly lost.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/26 22:25:10
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/04/27 13:04:26
John T
I've got to say, I personally have always found offset mode confusing and painful to work with. And on the rare occasions when I turn it on by accident, I find myself horribly lost.
Both offset modes are fantastic! They make mixing so much easier. However, regarding the main offset mode, I highly recommend not "living" in it. Get your automation the way you want. If one track is a little too loud or soft, zip into offset mode, change the fader, then go out of offset mode. If SONAR was a mechanical device, I would make the offset button a pushbutton you had to hold down while you were moving your fader, just so you'd remember to release it after making your tweak. The second offset mode works only in track view but it is super-powerful, especially when you have multiple interdependent automation tracks for different parameters and you want them all to track each other...or have some track each other, and some not. It's brilliant stuff...admittedly I've logged a zillion hours doing remixes, but it became second nature to me pretty quickly.
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mettelus
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/27 04:57:36
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Should retitle this thread "Why no VCAs in SONAR?" The OP and where it is truly focused are misleading. Nice original title, but this thread is VCAs.
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/27 05:54:12
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Anderton
lfm
Offset mode in Sonar, as I recall, you did not really see what you did, and you don't feel in control.
Just to visually see what you did in the process is really cool.
You can also do this in SONAR. However, you need to realize there are two offset options.
You can offset automation in as many tracks as you want, and see the automation curves themselves (as well as the faders or other associated controls) reflect the changes you make. Furthermore, you can do this with different automation curves (even curves for different parameters!) at the same time, even on different tracks, with a single mouse click+drag. This kind of offsetting affects the faders and such when you haven't placed SONAR specifically in offset mode. So with this second type of offset, you are actually offsetting the levels of the faders themselves. The main offset mode (and of course, you can group faders in offset mode) leaves the automation envelopes alone, so it's designed for making level tweaks when the automation is already doing what you want to do, and you just want to add or subtract a constant from the automation.
For an example of the power of the second offset mode, suppose you have one automation curve changing a soft synth's level, and another controlling its filter cutoff. When you want the offset the level lower, you also want to offset the filter cutoff lower. On a different track, you have a second soft synth, but when you bring down its level you want less LFO modulation. You can move/offset all of these envelopes at once, or whatever envelopes or portions of envelopes are selected, with a single mouse click+drag.
Thanks for tip on the second mode, really useful. Grouping options in Sonar are extensive. But am with John T a bit on feeling lost in offset mode. I think implementation with the automation offset line in Cubase and ProTools is really clever and make you feel in control. And when you feel you are done - your combine or freeze that into ordinary automation curve. Then even remove the groupings. As it tends to be for me - I do temporary groupings for a certain cause. As little as possible is realtime till the end. This way I feel - what I see is what I get. In Cubase if removing a VCA fader from a group - you are asked if to combine automation or revert to original. So in Sonar even confirming leaving offset mode and have that choice is a step forward in my world. The idea that is growing on me is using VCA's in two ways: a) temporary assignments to trim automation of arbitrary tracks without regard to where they are routed. With some kind of master offset mode grouped track in Sonar with visual feedback. b) assignment in nested tree where I can control any relevant section as I please - not necessarily having automation of its own. Will be different way of working keeping routing rather flat - and not so many busses in between. And you don't have to think about if any buss have children that do sends and effect return that needing to be kept within the same bus fader not to alter dry/wet. I've read comments on other uses too, like someone mentioned a client comes in and doing his own vocals automation as he wants it on one VCA fader, compared to mixers suggestion. But that works with MixRecall in Sonar so would not stop me using Sonar. But like the thinking in ProTools the most - VCA groups - where arbitrary controls are assigned to a group and then controlled by a separate fader and automation. There is huge amount of headroom in this approach that might make me switch daw. I sooooo like headroom and flexibility in tools. You are never sorry you started a project in a daw if there is headroom for anything that comes to mind.
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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/27 10:24:26
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Clearly there needs to be better documentation about SONAR's automation. So much of the functionality that's been described in this thread has been in SONAR for years, however the way of accessing it is not like with traditional mixers. So the main value I see of VCA-style mixing is that for those familiar with that way of working, it doesn't require learning a different paradigm. One reason why I like spending time in these forums is that they always give me ideas of what topics to write about. Seems like my next Sound on Sound column should be called "Advanced Automation Techniques." Then users of other DAWs can read it, and complain in other forums "Why can't you include this function that SONAR has?"
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/28 11:33:10
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Anderton
One reason why I like spending time in these forums is that they always give me ideas of what topics to write about. Seems like my next Sound on Sound column should be called "Advanced Automation Techniques." Then users of other DAWs can read it, and complain in other forums "Why can't you include this function that SONAR has?"
When it comes to context sensitive help I find Sonar is there right behind ProTools. ProTools have the very best manual, as well as the best context help. Both Cubase, Reaper, Samplitude, Digital Performer(ran trial only), StudioOne and Reaper suffer badly in this area. Reaper manual though is really good - the right amount of depth before digging deaper in separate chapter. So searching for familiar expressions like "VCA" produce no hits in Sonar 21.0.0.0 manual, as no hits in 21.9 help as I happend to have on this computer I browse internet with. To get assistance in doing things - why not clutter manual and context help in Sonar with this. Next could be extensive Youtube video tuts on various familiar doings. Blogs only reach certain range of viewers - is like preaching for already fans. How is your German: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRkSUB5heg4 One guy that adressed something like we talk about. Although reading german 5 years in school and skiing in Austria a lot in the seventies, I held it up to date. Not so anymore.  I don't know how you get subtitles to youtube stuff. I was able to follow briefly what he did - and explaining i a good way what is problem with busfaders and sends on children. Also do groups on faders where is dedicate one to be vca and doing not audio. Then doing automation write on the full group. What is missing is the offset mode and if that can be used in Sonar to alter a full groups automation in a smooth way.
post edited by lfm - 2016/04/28 11:58:17
Cubase Pro 9 with SA2015 as backup - W7 i7 2.8GHz 16G GeForce GT 730 - RME HDSP 9632 + AI4S
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Naren
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/28 23:07:04
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Anderton
Great, thanks for working through this with me. I was starting to think I was missing out on some game-changing feature because I just didn't see all this great value in it. Now I know why I don't
Hi Craig, I can't resist tossing this quote back in your direction. <<The crux of your post is about what matters to you.>> I love Sonar, but lately I have also been using Studio One, and I use the VCA faders often. They take two seconds to insert, free me from any routing pre/post concerns, and best of all you get a nicely color coded single fader to operate the group of faders. In the mixer that red fader just sits right next to the faders it is controlling. It works very well. The implementation is so quick that I have started grouping faders more than I used to. I know ideally that should not be the cause and effect, but in this time constrained business convenience and simplicity can have a direct effect on the quality of our work. The addition of VCA faders in Sonar would be an improvement, not a redundancy. -Naren
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Naren
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/28 23:20:04
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Anderton
So the main value I see of VCA-style mixing is that for those familiar with that way of working, it doesn't require learning a different paradigm.
Seems like my next Sound on Sound column should be called "Advanced Automation Techniques."
That first sentence is very important to me. I use three or four different DAWs depending upon location and circumstance. The old paradigms are often very good and are there for a reason. I want to think about notes, music and sound. Commonalities between the DAWs are important. Imagine if there were no third party VST plugins for example. As for your second sentence, I would appreciate a column like that very much. -Naren
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BMOG
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again
2016/04/29 09:00:12
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This may have been addressed already but the monthly subscription caught my eye because of the LP-MB that looks pretty cool. So I started reading about the monthly subscription and I may have missed but I don't see where you can get the monthly subscription for a month and cancel. Is that in fact true? It seems even with the monthly subscription it is based off 12 months. I have not renewed my yearly subscription but if it were possible to get just a month subscription for updates up to that point and have the option to cancel I would be interested in that.
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