Helpful ReplyThe psychology of the wallet - and a whole lot about VCA's...

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lfm
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2016/04/24 06:46:47 (permalink)

The psychology of the wallet - and a whole lot about VCA's...

Hi
Just wanted to share a bit that maybe is of use for Cakewalk - when am I ready to pay again?
 
Short version - when there is something I really want or need - then I am ready to pay up.
For me it's not enough with knowing about all these updates and things that don't matter to me.
 
Not sure if this is human nature over all - but it's how I work.
 
For various reasons I jumped to Cubase in june last year - since buying Cubase Pro was about the same money as good notation.
And I have headroom with many things that I might need, like VCA faders etc. And I can place busses withing track folders etc.
 
Now as my Sonar membership expired in feb, I have looked to see what major stuff was saved up for one year anniversary and probably the largest crowd of users are to open their wallets again.
 
To my disappointment - nothing was saved up - not a single surprise feature?
 
The major things introduced on sonar 2015 was upsampling synths, and patchpoints - and patchpoints was one thing that might have made me go up to Sonar Pro and just do notation in Cubase.
 
So if other people work like me - Cakewalk, be smart on how you release major stuff?
Sales psychology is like that - you are ready to pay if there is something you really want.
So this general thing with rolling updates does not work to pay up again - not for me.
 
So if Forum Hosts can avoid moving this to a forum where nobody participate - it could be good feedback to Bakers how you feel about the same thing.
 
Are membership for rolling updates working for you to pay up again?
These endless campaígns from Cakewalk tells me it's not quite working for them as anticipated.
 
Sonar is a fine daw, and I have the longest history with Sonar from Sonar 4 Studio, before that Cakewalk Pro 3.0 late 80's.
 
So chime in how you feel about it....
Best regards
Lars
post edited by lfm - 2016/04/27 05:22:06

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#1
notscruffy2
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 07:09:03 (permalink)
I don't think so. As in not in agreement. As in I do think the people at Cakewalk are smart. As in I wish they would move this thread to the designated area. As in I suspect your disappointment is familiar to you. As in paid up buckled up and moving on, how about doing the same.
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tenfoot
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 07:09:05 (permalink)
Hey Lars. That's the cool thing about the membership system though - you can opt out for a while until you see something you like. With such a broad range of users I imagine it would be difficult to choose features to 'save up' for the anniversary of the programs start date when most users will be re-uping for membership. On every release it seems that what some love, others dismiss as useless.
I considered the previous year as a whole and thought it was great value for money. Given the meagre cost, for me renewing was a no brainer:)

Bruce.
 
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 07:21:15 (permalink)
tenfoot
Hey Lars. That's the cool thing about the membership system though - you can opt out for a while until you see something you like. With such a broad range of users I imagine it would be difficult to choose features to 'save up' for the anniversary of the programs start date when most users will be re-uping for membership. On every release it seems that what some love, others dismiss as useless.
I considered the previous year as a whole and thought it was great value for money. Given the meagre cost, for me renewing was a no brainer:)


Thanks for your comment.
Good terms and incredible determination by Cakewalk - not saying anything else.
Just when it comes to paying up again - you really want something major - at least I do.
 
The greedy part of me did not want to upgrade to Sonar Pro in sept/okt when patchpoints came - as I had 4 months membership of Sonar Artist left. Another part is that it's not main daw anymore, but if having had that release in Feb I might have gone with it.
 
I assume the largest part for membership came beginning 2015 as rolling updates started then.
Wouldn't it be good business to have something major saved up for then - is my thought.
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GLG
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 07:22:39 (permalink)
tenfoot
I considered the previous year as a whole and thought it was great value for money. Given the meagre cost, for me renewing was a no brainer:)

This.
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rwheeler
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 07:23:09 (permalink)
Before Cakewalk switched Sonar to the monthly update schedule, they had an system that saved up lots of new features for one big annual release associated with a new version number. Many software companies do that. I find it much better to have monthly updates. I get the new stuff faster. I have time spread out all through the year to learn the new stuff a chunk at a time. But I can control the timing of new feature installations. If I want a big batch of new things all at once, I can decide to install updates quarterly or even annually. At the same time, Cakewalk has a schedule of many opportunities to implement any required bug fixes, so they don't have to save them up for a batch fix-it release. Anyone curious about the extent of improvements each month can look at the extensive details posted in the e-zines. Each individual can decide which parts are useful for their own projects and which to ignore.
 
I continue to purchase with an annual payment as a way to get a discount. Those who like smaller monthly payments can do so. New users can start with just the monthly payments instead of a big lump sum amount, but they still own the software after the first year of payments. New users can start any time during the year without any worry about when the next big release might come out. I think Cakewalk made a good marketing decision that takes full advantage of psychology that applies to many purchasers. I would not be happy if they went back to the old approach.

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#6
lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 07:25:33 (permalink)
notscruffy2
I don't think so. As in not in agreement. As in I do think the people at Cakewalk are smart. As in I wish they would move this thread to the designated area. As in I suspect your disappointment is familiar to you. As in paid up buckled up and moving on, how about doing the same.


That's cool - it's what forums are for - expressing your view.
As I said, I'm not paying up until there is something major - that is how I work.
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pwalpwal
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 07:29:19 (permalink)
lfm
The greedy part of me did not want to upgrade to Sonar Pro in sept/okt when patchpoints came - as I had 4 months membership of Sonar Artist left. Another part is that it's not main daw anymore, but if having had that release in Feb I might have gone with it.

hey lars - to be sure, you understand that patchpoints was also included in the february release? the updates are cumulative, apart from some (not much) content along the way...

just a sec

#8
lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 07:45:31 (permalink)
rwheeler
Before Cakewalk switched Sonar to the monthly update schedule, they had an system that saved up lots of new features for one big annual release associated with a new version number. Many software companies do that. I find it much better to have monthly updates. 



But is that theory - how do we really work, what is the psychology of getting someone to buy something?
 
I could have renewed one month in advance(dec 31st), getting another year Sonar Artist for $25, and I didn't go for it - 50% off.
 
And I asked myself why?
 
My conclusion was that nothing is in there - like Mixrecall and stuff one year earlier.
Not even an apitizer - that would be the announced improvement for support just recently.
To quickly have a dialog over a problem, and see if there is a workaround until fixed - that is part what I am ready to pay up for. So far support has not improved a cent since rolling updates, unless you want to spend a annual membership on a single phone call.
 
Bottomline - what is human nature when it comes to opening your wallet?
I think one major feature needs to be saved in a smart way to where maybe 70% of members renew.
 
Thinking about the turbulence with Avid and ProTools - for a year they had such severe penalties not buying in on subscription that they made users mad over the terms. Then stock went from $18 to $8 and they shifted policy suddenly to very reasonable terms. Now stock is down on $6 so they are not doing well anyway.
 
Is it subscription/membership style that does not work with human nature?
 
I'm seriously interested in how it works, and since I like Sonar as daw and could very well be top daw on market with some additions - I am closely looking at what is happening.
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lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 07:52:55 (permalink)
pwalpwal
lfm
The greedy part of me did not want to upgrade to Sonar Pro in sept/okt when patchpoints came - as I had 4 months membership of Sonar Artist left. Another part is that it's not main daw anymore, but if having had that release in Feb I might have gone with it.

hey lars - to be sure, you understand that patchpoints was also included in the february release? the updates are cumulative, apart from some (not much) content along the way...


Yes, thank you, I do get that.
But I mentioned in later post - that membership of Artist kept me from updating to Pro - since I had four months left. I saw no update alternatives for doing that - where four months left made a discount.
 
And that is where my dive into my mind started - why do I reason like that?
Is membership a good idea or not?
 
If it really was a good idea - all these major discounts would not be needed - as I see it.
 
I did not mean to offend anyone - I am seriously interested how we work and if that might give Cakewalk a clue how to proceed with updates.
 
Maybe keep one major thing to where the largest crowd is renewing?
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pwalpwal
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 07:55:35 (permalink)
fwiw i also prefer the "traditional" release cycle over subscription

just a sec

#11
rickidoo
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 08:30:42 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/04/24 22:47:37
Steady is the word about Sonar under the membership system. A steady income stream for them, steady updates and new features for us. And there have been many updates and new features since the start of membership. Having had sonar professional for several years before the membership thingee the updates would come in spurts.  After awhile updates were saved for a new version.  With a new version comes all the costs associated with marketing, change overs etc.  The membership system calms that cycle down somewhat, which means things are more steady for the business and for the customer.  No longer will features and updates that the customer can use, even bug fixes, be saved for the next big release - at least not to the extent things were before.
 
Going to a membership system and then just milking it for all its worth is *not* what they did.
 
 
#12
lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 09:07:50 (permalink)
rickidoo
With a new version comes all the costs associated with marketing, change overs etc.  The membership system calms that cycle down somewhat, which means things are more steady for the business and for the customer.  



In theory yes, that is a good thing.
 
But does it really make you open you wallet again - unless something you want is there already?
If you hold back and wait until something bigger - there is no new money for Cake is there?
 
Overall strategy is maybe to spread out payment over the year - and doing Mixreall at first release, then upsampling in spring and patchpoint in fall - that is what is happening probably.
 
But annual anniversay had nothing, to my suprise.
 
Top voted features on forum has been notation(a couple from Susan G), Arranger tracks(from me) and collapsable track folders in mixer from lawajawa. Not everybody want and need VCA faders, but it's there also but not top voted yet - but think it is mandatory if to attract pro folks, all major daws but Ableton, Digital Performer and Sonar have it. There is plenty spinoff on having the pro's using Sonar.
With this in place, I wonder if Sonar isn't top dog then - I'll go Sonar Pro at least, just making demos of own songs, not taking clients at all. And now that Cubase is dependent of deprecated Quicktime I'll do film score in Sonar too starting this year.
 
Just save one major thing to where the major crowd is renewing.
Or Cake just prefer and save this for later to move folks to summer updates - there are too many beginning year?
This could be it.
#13
Sycraft
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 09:38:31 (permalink)
I think it varies person to person. Personally, I like the annual payment model because it lets me budget what it is going to cost. I do a lot of that kind of thing at work, basically trying to work out what a given service/item costs on a yearly basis when you account for purchase, service, lifecycle and so on. So I apply the same thing to my personal life. Well, when something has a fixed yearly (or monthly) cost to maintain it, makes the numbers real easy. I pays $X per year and I'm good.
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 09:51:27 (permalink)
Sycraft
I think it varies person to person.



Obviously, this.
 
I prefer the sub model.  I also update maybe twice a year to minimize the "gremlin effect". 
 
Cubase has some great features (chord tracks, strong notation), but that 50 shades of gray mixer is just not to my liking.  No, let me rephrase that.... I absolutely hate it.  

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Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 10:20:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/04/24 12:13:26
lfm
Now as my Sonar membership expired in feb, I have looked to see what major stuff was saved up for one year anniversary and probably the largest crowd of users are to open their wallets again.
 
To my disappointment - nothing was saved up - not a single surprise feature?



If Cakewalk had done that, some would complain that the marketing people at Cakewalk forced engineering to hold back on an important new feature just to make people upgrade, that really sucks, I'm switching to Reaper, etc. No matter what Cakewalk does, there are people who will complain about it.
 
The crux of your post is about what matters to you. I guess VCA faders matter to you because you might need them someday, but they don't matter to me. Nor does being able to put buses or folders within folders. You didn't mention Drum Replacer as a major 2015 feature so I guess it didn't matter to you, but I've salvaged many a track with it - and its audio-to-MIDI triggering capabilities, combined with Melodyne's audio-to-MIDI, are incredibly useful...but only if you use MIDI. The Paint tool, which is quite cool, also matters only if you use MIDI. Enhanced Clip support has been a big deal for me, as have the optimizations - SONAR has never been faster - and VocalSync. But, if you do only instrumental work and never need to do ADR, then VocalSync wouldn't matter to you.
 
In March we had Tempo Detection so you can have tempo follow freely-played parts or parts without a click automatically - that's huge (Studio One is the only other DAW that has it, although it's a more cumbersome implementation). However if all you do is four-on-the-floor EDM, then it wouldn't matter to you. The new EQ and Multiband linear phase, channel independent, mid-side-friendly processors are exceptionally good processors by any standards. But if you don't care about mid-side processing, are content not being able to process the left and right channels independently, and are happy with the phase issues of analog emulations, then they wouldn't matter to you.
 
Personally I think the idea of holding back stuff just to lure people into renewing goes against what the Membership model is all about, which is to allow Cakewalk to release new stuff when it's ready. I felt Newburyport was a lackluster update, but after seeing what happened in March and April, it's understandable - Tempo Detection and the new processors are complex features, and Cakewalk waited until they were ready.
 
Because I work with a huge variety of projects, from narration to video scores, all the features mentioned above are useful to me. If they're not useful to you...well, then they're not...which to most users, is probably as irrelevant as their being useful to me. All that really matters, and frankly all that should matter, is whether the features are useful to them. 

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#16
Zargg
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 10:50:04 (permalink)
Hi. I must say that I like this current model, and love the frequent updates. And as others have said, I like to take in bit by bit when things are available compared to the older versions (when I felt like I had to take it all in at once). It has been worth it by far on my end . And I like to play with new "toys"
All the best.

Ken Nilsen
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#17
lfm
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 11:26:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby slyman 2016/05/05 10:29:29
Anderton
 
In March we had Tempo Detection so you can have tempo follow freely-played parts or parts without a click automatically - that's huge (Studio One is the only other DAW that has it, although it's a more cumbersome implementation). However if all you do is four-on-the-floor EDM, then it wouldn't matter to you. The new EQ and Multiband linear phase, channel independent, mid-side-friendly processors are exceptionally good processors by any standards. But if you don't care about mid-side processing, are content not being able to process the left and right channels independently, and are happy with the phase issues of analog emulations, then they wouldn't matter to you.
 
 



Thanks for your thorough comment.
And you are right in the sense that what matters to one person is a don't care by another.
 
But don't agree it would be anything like lure anybody, having something major saved up for expire date for the many. Having 50% discount renewing before end of year really tells you want us hanging in there - features are the best way and more important than cost.
 
If it's automatic Tempo Detection it's cool.
I recently did on Cubase, and I had to use Logical Editor for the midi stuff to be stretched.
They have Tempo Detection but it has to be 7s long - and it was an intro I wanted to change tempo on to match tempo map. So to change from 137 bpm to 89.8 bpm tempo I had to insert formulas for that relationship to stretch the clip - so nothing automatic about it. Beat Calculator helped a bit.
Haven't tried audio tempo detection in Cubase yet and don't know how cumbersome it would be.
Many things in Cubase are uphill battle - but it works really well once getting how to do it and all Waves plugins are supported with no exceptions. Some Waves favourites are not supported by Sonar, reasons I left Reaper too.
 
Cakewalk Sonar has improved and superseeded many things in Cubase and I'm sure you will continue doing that. That's why I bother looking.
 
And still wait for top voted stuff on Features and Ideas forum to be recognized by devs.
Certain things are not needing a vote - as Seth or Noel announced a year or so ago - you look at trend in musical industry etc. I think VCA's fit that part. Trying on film score this year for me - I'm sure VCA's are really useful - having much larger parts balanced consistently without having to alter send automation as well.
 
I keep looking at Sonar and what is happening.....
#18
VariousArtist
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 12:16:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/04/24 22:49:13
I think membership has brought a lot of stability to the software. There is more feedback between iterative releases and if a problem arises it tends to be smaller and can be dealt with very quickly and effectively.

Not every release or feature excites me, but I like knowing that I won't have to wait too long for something that does or, at a minimum, a steady stream of fixes and small improvements.

I've spent more on a plugin that I rarely use than an annual membership for Sonar which I use every day. I don't begrudge this cost one bit.
#19
Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 12:34:49 (permalink)
lfm
If it's automatic Tempo Detection it's cool.

 
It's not just tempo detection, it's tempo following. If you have a part whose tempo varies, the tempo map will  vary. For example, to test it out I played a rhythm guitar part where the tempo sounded like the guitar player was on tranquilizers, then the coffee kicked in, and finally the tempo fell off a cliff to really slow. I was shocked that SONAR (and therefore Addictive Drums) followed it perfectly, although it's important to set Melodyne to percussion mode on really wild tempo changes. If this isn't a major feature, I'm not sure what is 
 
The way it works is like this: you drag the audio clip you want SONAR to follow to the time line. That's it.
 
As to VCA grouping, I believe the main reason for its introduction in other programs is for Pro Tools users. Pro Tools used to have several grouping limitations (not being able to group record and input monitor, not being able to group faders with separate outputs, etc.) and PT 7.2 addressed those by adding VCA grouping. However, SONAR doesn't have those limitations, and Quick Grouping took SONAR's grouping one step further. Also, SONAR has had the ability to group ratiometrically as well as linearly, AND do custom grouping curves, for as long as I can remember. 
 
There have been discussions of VCA grouping in these forums and it seems relevant only in specific situations with post-fader effects and busing. However, maybe I just don't "get" it (which is entirely possible) but I don't see anything that can't be done in SONAR with grouping, buses, and/or aux tracks/patch points. As most of the comments about the desirability of VCA grouping involve separate effect levels on drums, I think it might be possible to create a Track Template with all the bus and aux track assignments needed to do whatever VCA grouping can do. That would simplify matters even further.
 
 

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#20
kitekrazy1
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 13:12:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2016/04/24 13:38:35
notscruffy2
I don't think so. As in not in agreement. As in I do think the people at Cakewalk are smart. As in I wish they would move this thread to the designated area. As in I suspect your disappointment is familiar to you. As in paid up buckled up and moving on, how about doing the same.




 It's thread like this that a few years ago where the Cakewalk forums have gotten a bad reputation.  The OP did not make a trollish comment yet you respond in one. Are you going to give him a beat down "Sonar style"?   
 I've seen people who still participate in forums of a DAW they don't use and offer great information. (see Reasontalk)   
 Sonar is not my main DAW but I still like to support developers who treats the end user as someone honest.

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#21
notscruffy2
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 14:29:00 (permalink)
I think your troll meter is out of wack. but hey if its in the eye you look with...
 
#22
Sycraft
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 14:35:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SuperG 2016/04/24 15:01:16
Anderton
However, maybe I just don't "get" it



I'm in the same boat. I do not get the love-fest for VCA faders in a DAW. Maybe it is just the name VCA and the reference to a console it calls up, but I can't work out what is so special. Near as I know from having used them in the real world once or twice is that what they do is move things with relative offsets so they maintain the dB spread between them.
 
Ok, great... I can think of like 4 easy ways to do that in a DAW with no problems. A group in Sonar does it easy enough, for that matter assigning a bunch of things to a bus would do it just fine, just without the fanciness of the other faders moving.
 
I feel like I'm missing something based on how worked up over them some people get but I can't figure out what even after thinking on it. It was a big deal in the analogue domain because you literally had to have a console designed differently: Where faders controlled the voltage level going in to an amp, rather than directly attenuating the signal itself. However that's all irrelevant in the digital domain. There are no faders, no amps, all this stuff is just widgets to help us tell the software how to do the math it is doing.
#23
tenfoot
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 14:56:58 (permalink)
Anderton
 
There have been discussions of VCA grouping in these forums and it seems relevant only in specific situations with post-fader effects and busing. However, maybe I just don't "get" it (which is entirely possible) but I don't see anything that can't be done in SONAR with grouping, buses, and/or aux tracks/patch points. 
 



Absolutely this! I understand what a big advantage VCA's were on analogue consoles, and as a fan of the Dave Rat Techniuque for live mixing could not survive without the DCA's on my digital desks, but I am yet to see a clear explanation of or discover any advantages over the advanced grouping and routing features that already exist in Sonar. I would be happy to be educated if someone has one though.
post edited by tenfoot - 2016/04/24 15:18:42

Bruce.
 
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#24
pwalpwal
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 15:14:25 (permalink)
read the OP, it's not about VCAs particularly, that was dropped in half-way through, it's about why the OP is holding off subbing again

just a sec

#25
tenfoot
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 15:31:11 (permalink)
pwalpwal
read the OP, it's not about VCAs particularly, that was dropped in half-way through, it's about why the OP is holding off subbing again


But the OP introduced discussion of VCA's and described them as mandatory to attract pro users. Certainly pertains to the direction the thread has taken.

Bruce.
 
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#26
pwalpwal
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 15:34:46 (permalink)
VCA faders "etc" - son it 's kind of tangental to the htrust of the op
and as anderton points out, that's a pro tools thing (is it?) in which case it's surely a good way to get pro toolers on board? there's a similar discussion in the feature request forum...

just a sec

#27
kitekrazy1
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 17:48:54 (permalink)
notscruffy2
I think your troll meter is out of wack. but hey if its in the eye you look with...
 




Yes it needs a reset. Maybe you should stop posting. That will fix it.
 
 Your comments: As in I suspect your disappointment is familiar to you. As in paid up buckled up and moving on, how about doing the same...

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#28
Anderton
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 20:11:12 (permalink)
pwalpwal
VCA faders "etc" - son it 's kind of tangental to the htrust of the op
and as anderton points out, that's a pro tools thing (is it?) in which case it's surely a good way to get pro toolers on board? there's a similar discussion in the feature request forum...



But also as I said, VCAs were to address limitations in Pro Tools that SONAR inherently doesn't have.

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#29
TW5011
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Re: The psychology of the wallet - this how I work if to pay for Sonar again 2016/04/24 23:52:07 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby joel77 2016/04/26 10:27:01
I was intrigued by the membership model when it was announced -- how it would be implemented, how it could increase efficiency and productivity with the development team, etc.  I have to say, I like the way Cakewalk does it, so much so, that when the time to renew my yearly membership came up recently and there wasn't anything really exciting to me on the upcoming page, I renewed anyway, because I thought the past year was great in terms of what they delivered and I expect it to continue.  I also enjoy getting something new every month or two.  I normally don't upgrade just to "keep up" -- I've skipped several versions to save money.  (Been using Sonar since 2002; occasionally glance at the forums since I don't get the e-mails anymore.)  Anyway, just adding my 2 cents...
#30
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