Thinking of going back to x86 (32-bit) from x64 (64-bit) -- New thoughts on x64...

I made the wholesale switch to x64 on my main DAW and now even on my backup DAW -- I've been basically thrilled until recently... as I've been slamming my projects with more and more plugins, I've noticed some strange things begin to happen.

For example, the other day I had a project with >4GB RAM used (very typical, with many instances of Omnisphere x64, Kontakt x64, etc.) and when I opened a WaveArts plugin (also x64), the plugin interface didn't show up in some of the instances. When I removed several instances of Omnisphere I got the interfaces of the WaveArts plugins back. How strange is that?

Now, I haven't diagnosed it fully yet, and I will be contacting WaveArts (and perhaps Spectrasonics) about it when I get a breather, but of all the things to give me trouble, those were among the last ones I'd think of. Again, this is really preliminary, and I don't know the culprit yet -- could be Sonar for all I know right now --  but this is not the only thing that's been a bit strange.

In general, I've found that if my projects contain tons of different plugins (quantity and variety) -- even really high-quality plugins that I trust and hammer day in and day out -- things can get a little unpredictable.

What's very interesting to me is that when I keep the TYPE of plugin consistent -- i.e. -- if I load up >4GB of Kontakt x64 with many instances, I'm good... on light, medium and heavy loads, so it's not the amount of RAM that is issue, nor is it the CPU load, drivers, etc... it's really only the number AND variety of plugins that cause strangeness...

In other words, I'm feeling that even though I may have a 100% x64 project set up (as in, all the plugins are x64), that if I have too many plugins that are DIFFERENT, things can get strange.

So, without going into more detail, I'm wondering if some of the x64 plugins are just not as fully-baked as their x86 equivalents... leading to more subtle, very hard to track issues when used in combination with many other plugins simultaneously. See, I thinking DAW developers and plugin developers are not hammering their test suites with enough plugin varieties to test for subtle issues once the load gets way up there...

I also did a breakdown of my memory usage patterns, and basically, the only time I go over 3GB RAM usage (which is quite often -- almost every serious mix or project now) is when I use sample-based products like Kontakt, PLAY or Spectrasonics plugins. If I create a super-complex session WITHOUT those types of memory-hungry plugins, I can almost always stay under 3GB usage, and things seem more stable...

Which made me realize that I could theoretically use VE Pro as my sample-based plugin host all the time, instead of trying to make Sonar x64 (or Cubase x64, etc.) do all the heavy lifting.

So in other words, I'm contemplating moving to the following combo:

I'd stick with Win 7 x64, but instead of running Sonar x64 and Cubase x64, I would install the x86 versions plus finally start using VE Pro, which can then host the sample-based plugins on the same computer AND networked computers. Voila! Best of both worlds... maybe.

This might give me more oomph and less strangeness than I'm currently getting. Or maybe not.... I'm definitely interested in people's opinions who have tried something like this.

I'm also wondering if anyone else has considered these issues, and what benefits/issues you might have researched.

The other bonus of this is that I'll be able to run Reaktor again (which just doesn't seem to work 100% right all the time in both Sonar x64 or Cubase x64 with any of the bridges, no matter what people may say), plus a few other goodies I kinda miss.

Now before anyone wastes time trying to troubleshoot hardware, the system is tested and solid. No issues there.

Maybe this is also a query about the general state of x64. While it's better than ever -- I freely admit to that as an x64 convert -- I just wonder if we're still not really there yet?

Maybe we are there, and I have to just live with the little issues and find workarounds?

Although I can't reliably use my beloved Sound Toys...and I do get occassional CTD from my M-Audio Fast Track Ultra (whose 64 bit drivers are over a year old)...and do have the ocassional oddball hangup.  I WOULDN'T GO BACK TO 32 BIT FOR LOVE NOR MONEY!  Faster, at least as... if not more... stable, can run multiple instances of anything with headroom to spare (12 gigs memory helps!!) and with fully 90% of my plugins running hot straight and normal I'm never going backwards.  Onwards and upwards, ol pal.  Don't look back.

(cue boston)

I really don't know if it's an x64 thing or not. I've switched, and that's it. I don't care what system you have, what you use, how it's used, or even WHEN it's used.....issues occur. 

You'll forgive, but it sounds allot like a needle in a haystack as far as knowing for sure what it is.

When I first went to x64 i ran with a dual boot of XP PRO SP3 and VISTA Ultimate x64 SP2.

I've now scrapped Xp as I've haven't used it in a year.

Now my dilemma is with WIN7 x64. I've setup my previous partition with WIN 7 ultimate x64 but even with just the OS installed I don't get anywhere near the DPC latency on Win 7 that I get on VISTA.

I've read many stories of issues migrating to WIN 7 x64 coming from XP so i'm in no hurry to commit to Win 7 just yet.

It's just that since SP2 for VISTA came out I've never once crashed anything on my machine. I also have a built for Min 7 64 laptop with an i7 processor and 8 GIG of RAM. My WIN 7 laptop isn't as clean and stable as my VISTA DAW - go figure

that

subtlearts


This is all interesting to me as I'm teetering on the edge of an OS upgrade. My main DAW (still on XP) has become really unstable and I figure if I'm going to go through the whole clean install thing it's kind of silly to do it on XP again at this stage in the game. 

I will likely put in a fresh drive and install whatever it is on that, leave the current install there until such time as I port everything over and get it running smoothly. 

My question to the more informed folks here is, what OS version/flavour should I be installing on a system that's a few years old (Q6600, 4g RAM) at this point? I have no experience with x64 at all, and I have a few things that i'm kind of attached to (notably Reaktor) that I gather are not x64 native yet. However, I am definitely interested in bringing things a bit more up to date and if x64 will improve system speed and/or stability, I'm all for it. 

Suggestions and advice are most welcome, hope this doesn't hijack the thread or anything. 

As I've said many times on this forum --- I'm no expert with 64bit OS YET.  I have 3 laptops all with Windows 7 pro on it.  I'm in the IT biz for a number of years as well as a musician -- so it's not like I have no clue.
 
From ALL I gather, though - it's just about what works and what doesn't.  Specifically drivers and plugins.  Sonar works, that we know.  It was a leader in the 64bit arena.  But not everyone else is.
 
When I take the plunge (no doubt in 2011), I will do it this way:
 
KEEP my current, fine, smooth, working nicely system.  So when I'm tired of learning/struggling, I can still make music.
 
Then I will build a new machine the way I want it to be... and dive in.  Make the mistakes.  Learn from others (anyone who thinks THIS forum isn't helpful is crazy).  And like everything else in life, I will learn -- even if slowly -- what I need, what it needs, etc.
 
My point being.  When we go for something, we just go.  Don't fight it - when it happens.
 
Or as I used to say:  "Get into it, not out of it" ;)
 
Just don't put yourself in a position where you can't make music.  Have a backup plan. 
 
But it seems many are doing fine.... so shall we if we struggle through it.
 
Just get us a few more hours in the day ;)
 
 

Freddie H

eratu


I made the wholesale switch to x64 on my main DAW and now even on my backup DAW -- I've been basically thrilled until recently... as I've been slamming my projects with more and more plugins, I've noticed some strange things begin to happen.

For example, the other day I had a project with >4GB RAM used (very typical, with many instances of Omnisphere x64, Kontakt x64, etc.) and when I opened a WaveArts plugin (also x64), the plugin interface didn't show up in some of the instances. When I removed several instances of Omnisphere I got the interfaces of the WaveArts plugins back. How strange is that?

Has nothing to do with x64bit. Your Microsoft Runtime Redistributable doesn't run correctly.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=ba9257ca-337f-4b40-8c14-157cfdffee4e


http://wavearts.com/uploads/files/vcredist_x64.exe

You hit something important, Freddie.   WaveArts (a good plugin vendor) did have trouble with the redistrbutables for a while.  They fixed it, but it wasn't a very well publicized problem (which I'm sure we can understand).
 
So yea - I ran into issues with that too - so it's good you brought that up.
BTW - it's nice to "see" you in "normal" fonts ;)
 
 

Freddie H


Thanks Billy!

Thank you too, Freddie :)
 

yorolpal


  Onwards and upwards, ol pal.  Don't look back.

That's how I felt two weeks ago... but now I'm having second thoughts. I just want to get work done without random craziness happening so I always think, "there must be a better way to do this!" -- so I keep an eye out for an even more stable workflow. But I guess I'll always have some issues. :)

chrisharbin


(cue boston)

I really don't know if it's an x64 thing or not. I've switched, and that's it. I don't care what system you have, what you use, how it's used, or even WHEN it's used.....issues occur. 

You'll forgive, but it sounds allot like a needle in a haystack as far as knowing for sure what it is.

Now that last statement I will have to totally agree with. Damn, you're right.

What? freddie in "normal" fonts!

How will I recognise you? You're still on x64 right? Phew!

mudgel

but even with just the OS installed I don't get anywhere near the DPC latency on Win 7 that I get on VISTA.

DPC isn't all where it's at -- once you get below a certain threshold, you'll do fine. I've come to look at it as a marker for problems ONLY if it rises above a certain level and if it ever spikes... otherwise, as long as you have consistent DPC in the safe zone, you'll be okay. I have three systems up and running now as DAWs with Win 7 x64 Pro, and all can pull some wonderful low latency without issue, even though their DPC values are higher than what I could get with XP. If you can run your interface at the lowest audio driver latency without issue, that's ultimately what matters, right?

Remember, DPC is measured in microseconds... so even 100, 200, 300 microseconds is not going to have a notable impact on servicing the interrupt requirements of an interface at even 32, 48 or 64 sample buffer size (single-digit milliseconds), for example, if you have great drivers from places like Lynx, RME, etc... even my Focusrite stuff runs great at really low latencies on Win 7, and that stuff is using DICE II of all things.

mudgel


What? freddie in "normal" fonts!

How will I recognise you? You're still on x64 right? Phew!

Maybe I'm crazy - but I like Freddie in normalcy :)   He always had a lot to offer (still does). 
 
I remember someone once said:
 
"You go into an important meeting but you have a stain or some stuff on your shirt...   the other person spends a lot more time focusing on the stain than your comments."
 
True that.  Ya know?
 
 

eratu

Freddie H

eratu


I made the wholesale switch to x64 on my main DAW and now even on my backup DAW -- I've been basically thrilled until recently... as I've been slamming my projects with more and more plugins, I've noticed some strange things begin to happen.

For example, the other day I had a project with >4GB RAM used (very typical, with many instances of Omnisphere x64, Kontakt x64, etc.) and when I opened a WaveArts plugin (also x64), the plugin interface didn't show up in some of the instances. When I removed several instances of Omnisphere I got the interfaces of the WaveArts plugins back. How strange is that?

Has nothing to do with x64bit. Your Microsoft Runtime Redistributable doesn't run correctly.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=ba9257ca-337f-4b40-8c14-157cfdffee4e


http://wavearts.com/uploads/files/vcredist_x64.exe



Be aware of that the installer pack will not cure Technofobia!

Thank you for the heads up on this, Freddie, I will definitely look into it and mention it if I have to contact WaveArts for more info. They are a great little company and their stability and quality is why I keep using their excellent products.

+1.  WaveArts are very interactive with tech support.  Sometimes stunningly so.  Very good company, probably underrated too.
 
 

mudgel


I can tell you that I use KOMLETE 7 from NI and have no problem using Reaktor which is still 32 bit. I'm not the power user that eratu is so perhaps haven't hit limitations that are there (if they are there at all) but have no problem running a few instances of all the KOMPLETE instruments and haven't broken into a sweat as yet. I also use SupDrummer 2.2.2 and  Independence 2.5 along with all the IKM plugins for guitar/fx and or synths as well as Stealth pedal.
Line 6 POD XT Live, Ozone 4, alloy, t-racks 3 for mxing and mastering. I haven't found a thing yet to stop things from working, no hanging, no blue screens nothing at all except 100% working no matter what.

I use SONAR 8.5.3 x64 on VISTA SP2 at this time with 12 GIG DDR3 RAM and a Quadra 3800 nVidia graphics card (1 GIG) Its a mid range pro graphics card for 3D work and video rendering. Takes a big load away from the CPU but no reall benefit when using a DAW.

all the IK Multimedioa lugins are 32 bit but all work through Bitbridge without a hitch.

most of the NI plugins are now 64 bit except Reaktor bit it works 100% that i can tell.

after having a safety fall back to XP 32bit available it turns out that in a year I've not even booted into that partition.

I'vve now scrapped it and have installed WIN 7 x64 and now debating moving from what os working so well to maybe giving WIN 7 a try. While I can run iot as a dual boot with my stable VISTA OS I'll stay woth that untill such timethat WIN 7 proves to be at least that stable.

but 64 bit all the way for me.

caveat: I have 1 program for which I need to use SONAR 32 bit. I have along history of working with and using JAMMER which sadly wont run in a 64 bit host so when I want to muck around with it I use SONAR 32 bit. For anything serious though I'm now x64 all the way; My use of VISTA x64 began only a few weeks before SP 2 was released so I hardly had anytime with the pre SP2 problems. Smooth sailing all the way.

For the most part, I have a similar experience in x64 once I got the initial issues worked out... and my problems didn't start up again until my projects got really complex. The project in question that started to irritate me had something like 120 tracks (not all playing at once, of course, but still, plenty of action) -- maybe 20 instances of Omnisphere, tons of samples (Kontakt), tons and tons of WaveArts, FablFilter, and more -- all x64 native from good companies, (maybe 100-200 plugins total) all over the place... and weirdness ensues... It could really be ANY of the plugins... frankly this is the type of thing that could be caused by Sonar, Cubase, Windows, etc.... it's just frustrating to have all this power and run into strangeness when you really start pushing things.

Despite all that, I still have CPU headroom, so this is really a miraculous DAW in some respects... it just doesn't feel as solid as it should be. Man, now I sound really greedy. ;)

EDIT: Re: NI, I agree for the most part, but I am NOT getting a perfect experience with Reaktor. I continue to have issues, so I have now simply given up on running it inside an x64 host with a bridge. As soon as I think it's working right, I find out some tiny little thing is not right when I reload a project, or I flat-out have problems loading my original patches... and that only happens with one of the bridges. When I use it natively in x86 host, it works as it should. Maybe we're just using different types of ensembles... so it could be very much a case-by-base issue.

mike_mccue


Eratu,
My solution has always been to keep it simple. That is true when I work with hardware in my daily work or software in my studio.

Yes, I TOTALLY agree with you... I've been trying to keep my x64 rigs very simple... (well, at least more simple than my old XP machines!). I've been trying to move away from using x86 plugins in my x64 projects just to avoid the inevitable minor goofiness I get with the bridges. Trust me on this one, I have POUNDED the four bridges out there... BitBridge, jBridge, VST Bridge and Reaper's Bridge. They all do the job to a certain degree (some better than others), and they are all very, very helpful when you need that certain x86 plugin... but in the end I have found my sessions to be more stable without ever touching them.

BTW, for the record, of all the bridges, Steinberg's VST Bridge is unquestionably the worst, and Cake's BitBridge is arguably the most flexible, although jBridge probably takes the win in some situations -- jBridge is an essential purchase for anyone making the transition to x64. Reaper's Bridge is surprisingly good... but still, they all seem to reduce stability to some degree.

Anyway, I agree with simplicity... I really have to re=think my workflow. I think I've tried to build my projects in a one-step process -- i.e.: write, produce, mix, and sometimes (yikes! I admit it!) even master within one project. I might have to break that down some more to avoid the plugin load... just don't know yet.