I've never been "pitched" from a post before.....I'm guessing this is as good a chance as any..lol

..."Hold on Margret.....I tink wez goin fer a ride here".........

 I do wanna thank everyone for all the comments. I'm going to remove myself from this thread because this thread believe or not was never meant to be about me or my opinion on various issue's. I just felt it was time for me to say thanks, and I am not scared to do so.

I'm happy about the recent events that have occurred for one of my family members, and it is truly my belief that my prayers played a big part in things getting better.

If I've upset anyone I apologize, that was never my intent.

Bobby

Wood67
 

My grandfather was both an Anglican Missionary and a scientist (he was at the Cavendish lab in Cambridge at the next bench to Rutherford).  He also authored a book 'Where Science and Religion Meet' a long time before the more recent Dawkins crowd. Sadly I never got the chance to talk with him in depth but I would have loved to be able to talk through some of these things.

Wow Chris, that's absolutely facinating about your Grandfather - and what conversations those would have been if you'd had the chance.
 
 

Wood67

All things being equal: Person "A" prays for his football team to win on Sunday. Person "B" prays for the opposing team to win. Both teams can't win.

But that is secondary to the main question:

If team A wins - Person A will feel the prayer has been answered, and the meme is reinforced.  Meanwhile Person B might also believe he has been answered, but accepts the loss as a necessary part of the plan.  The meme is reinforced again.  A draw brings the same result - the faith meme is very strong. 

Very interesting too, didn't Dawkins invent the concept of the 'meme' in The Selfish Gene - it's so long since I read it now I can't remember - I must be due for a re-read I guess.
 
I do have a poignant and quite recent personal memory of almost exactly the example you use to illustrate the point above.
 
About a week after an operation to remove a particularly aggressive case of pancreatic cancer, my dear old mum seemed to be well on the road to recovery when she suffered a massive internal haemorrhage - she was put on life support in the intensive care unit and never regained consciousness before she sadly lost her silent fight for life eight days later.
 
During the time she was in the ICU, I was 'reassured' by some of her religious friends that they were 'praying hard' for her speedy recovery.  When I had the sad task of telling one of them that we'd eventually lost her, this lady's exact words to me were "Well Steve, it's God's will".
 
It was touch and go for a while, and the wonderful doctors and medical staff up at the QE thought there was a real chance of mum coming through the ordeal and maybe even being able to go home.
 
At the Coroner's Inquest following her death, it was confirmed (I already been informed 'off the record') that the original operation to remove the cancer had actually not been a success - had she never even had to suffer the haemorrhage, she would have died within weeks from the cancer anyway.
 
This got me thinking though - if she'd survived the haemorrhage, I've absolutely no doubt whatsoever that her friends would have been chiming in about how wonderful God was in answering them when they prayed so 'hard'.  I would imagine her subsequent death, or the bombshell news that, in fact, she still had terminal cancer would have met with "Well - it's God's will".
 
And so ad infinitum.
 
I'd always been, shall I say - 'disinterestedly agnostic' through life but this whole episode finally pushed me firmly into the atheist camp.  I think the whole praying thing got to me - not because it didn't work for my mum, but because of this mind-numbingly abject 'get-out' clause.  I just don't feel comfortable with a religion that allows it's God to take all the credit when something good happens, but none of the blame when something (he's obviously capable of affecting) goes wrong.
 
A very good friend of mine is an Evangelical Minister and we occasionally have a great time discussing science (he's an electronics engineer by trade) and religion.  I recently asked him about prayer, and specifically why we don't wake up every morning simply and pray 'hard' before anyone we know and love gets cancer.
 
"It just doesn't work that way" he told me.
 
I recently gave him the link to the Why Doesn't God Heal Amputees website - I'm sure some of you on both sides of the divide have visited the site.  I'm hoping at some future chat he's going to explain to me the problem with the basic tenet the folk on this site propound.
 
"Well Steve, it's God's will" is running about 11/4 on at the moment. 
  
  
  
Edit: This isn't in any way meant to be an anti-religion post, I'm not here to tell people what, or not, to believe in.  It's just a personal observation, nothing more.
 
 
 
 
  
  
  
 

Susan G

Not nearly an original thought, but more people have been killed in wars in the name of religion than for any other reason....

That's debatable:

http://www.newscholars.com/papers/Killing,%20Christianity,%20and%20Atheism.pdf

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4076

http://www.theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/21PbAr/Pl/DthByAthsm.htm

bdickens


God always answers your prayers.



It's just that a lot of the time the answer is "no."

That's debatable.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video8.htm

marcos69

Susan G

...oftentimes (by no means always) the most "religious" are also the most intolerant and the least accepting and loving people I've met...

This has been my collective experience as well.

As my pastor says, "Christianity would be a nice little religion if it wasn't for all those Christians".
 
What he was getting at is that many Christians mistakenly think that they are the ones that get to do the judging.   To the contrary, our commandment was to do the serving and the loving. 

Susan G


Hi Murray-

What he was getting at is that many Christians mistakenly think that they are the ones that get to do the judging. To the contrary, our commandment was to do the serving and the loving.

Why do so many so-called "Christians" get so easily derailed, I wonder?

-Susan

Good question.
http://adultthought.ucsd...._American_Taliban.html

Susan G

Why do so many so-called "Christians" get so easily derailed, I wonder?

-Susan

This is a great question, Susan.
 
One way to answer it is to make an analogy to what happens on this forum.  Most of the problems stem from not reading & following the documentation.  Add in human frailties (ego, arrogance, deceitfulness, etc.) and you start to see why many get derailed.  Some people never had a chance because they were taught from childhood by religious institutions that got derailed hundreds of years ago.
 
Another fav quote, "Don't judge Christianity on how people have abused it."   Definitely not trying to preach, but it seems appropriate here.  You can substitute "Sonar" for "Christianity" in the quote if you like.  
 
M.

The idea that God rewards some people and punishes others - the idea that God answers some people's prayers and not other's - the idea that God cares more about some people and less about others is childish and immature.

The idea that God just might help your basketball team win or help you pass that test is childish and immature.

Look around. Look at everything around you: the sky the trees, the mountains. Look at the vastness of the universe. You really think your piddly concerns - your attachments to worldly things - matter to the Creator of all that? What hubris! What childish self-centeredness! What small-mindedness! What really matters to God is how we relate to our fellow being.

If we all came from the same source, if we all are "part and particle of God" and are eventually going to return there, does it matter if you loose your toy, your limb or even your life?



The world has forces at work that are far larger than us. Hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, tornados, droughts - all are consequences of what is necessary for life to exist in the first place. The consequence of those things is that people are going to get hurt. It is unfortunate, but that's just the way things are. Neither good nor evil, it just is.

Buddhism rightly points out that it is our attachments that cause suffering.


Funny, RLD, how come people with your attitude can never seem to bring yourselves to quote the likes of Marcus Borg, Bishop John Shelby Spong, or even Jesus himself?

Axiology

guitardog247

Or it's an indecisive god I suppose?

Impotent, indifferent, evil or non-existent.

You guys left out the third possibility, as Harry said to Sally:

"The fact that you're not answering leads me to believe you're either (a) not at home, (b) home but don't want to talk to me, or (c) home, desperately want to talk to me, but trapped under something heavy."

(c) would explain a great deal of things.

Not sure it violates the TOS, no one attacking each other.

Back to praying. How do we feel about parents that refuse to take their children to the hospital for a very treatable sickness/condition because they would rather pray for a cure?  This happened here in Wisconsin, the girl was 11, diabetic. Parents wouldn't take her to the hospital for treatment. They prayed instead and she died. Parents were convicted of intentional homocide. So god just said no?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521307,00.html?loomia_ow=t0:s0:a16:g12:r1:c0.705590:b25392946:z0

marcos69


Susan, there is NO moderation on these forums.  If there is, it's extremely selective.

I say, that's just like....