Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire

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vladasyn
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 17:53:10 (permalink)
After looking at all the numbers and options, I did something crazy, and... bought MOTU. Thank you, Rob, for suggesting it. I got Motu 1248 and Motu 16A. Just one for now, will test connections and make sure it working before I buy 2nd 16A.
So what now?
I have Asus Rog Maximus Here Z270 motherboard.
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-IX-HERO/specifications/
 
It has
1 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 (black, oval)USB Type-CTM
1 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 (red)Type-A
The MOTU rep says- check your specs- it may just work with USB Type C. This is frustrating- nobody knows for sure. Asus does not know.
 
This is the ThunderboltEX 3 card
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboard-Accessory/ThunderboltEX-3/
It actually hard to find. So do I need it? And what cable do I need? USB Type C to Thunderbolt? Thank you.

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I am a female. Windows 8.1
Custom DAW Intel Core I7 3770K, 16 Gb memory, SSD+ 2 x 2 Gb storage. Presonus StudioLive 24.
  Multiple keyboards and modules, software synths.  
#31
vladasyn
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 17:54:31 (permalink)
Please, see my post above. I actually heard that Presonus new Studiolive Ethernet only works on Macs. Rep from MOTU told me it will not work.

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I am a female. Windows 8.1
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#32
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 18:37:30 (permalink)
FWIW, The ASIO spec itself only allows a single audio interface.
With multiple units (from different companies), you'd have potential clocking issues (tracks drifting out of sync), etc.
Not an elegant solution to a more complex setup...
 
My thoughts on MOTU:
Yes... MOTU does make some "consumer" level gear.
IMO, Their consumer level gear is better than many other companies' offerings.
ie:  The Ultralite AVB offers great bang-for-the-buck ($650).  
  • Average noise-floor is ~-114dB
  • Round-trip latency performance is excellent (sub 5ms at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size 44.1k)
  • Routing is extremely flexible
Their larger (full rack) AVB series is what I'd call "professional" level.
Specs are actually slightly better than the RME Fireface UFX.
  • Average noise-floor is ~-117dB
  • Round-trip latency is sub 3ms when connected via Thunderbolt
  • MOTU has full "PCIe via Thunderbolt" support (actually available for a good while now)
Now, are the MOTU AVB series on par (fidelity wise) with boutique converters like Burl?  No.
You can't expect that... given the cost.
You could absolutely track a professional sounding record with the MOTU 1248.
 
Regarding USB vs. Thunderbolt:
Under ideal circumstances, Thunderbolt offers performance equal to PCIe.
The best USB-2 audio interfaces (like RME's Fireface UFX) offer low-latency performance that's very close to the best Thunderbolt units.  In fact, comparing the Fireface UFX to the Apollo, at the same ASIO buffer size, the Fireface UFX offers slightly lower round-trip latency.  
At a 64-sample ASIO buffer size 44.1k
  • Fireface UFX yields 5.1ms total round-trip latency
  • Apollo yields 5.4ms total round-trip latency
The smallest ASIO buffer size offered by the Fireface UFX is 48-samples.
Total round-trip latency (at 44.1k) is 4.3ms.
The smallest ASIO buffer size offered by the Apollo is 32-samples.
Total round-trip latency (at 44.1k) is 3.9ms.
Even for someone who's extremely picky about latency, that difference is minute.
(You can run heavier loads at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size than at a 32-sample ASIO buffer size.)
 
FWIW, Sonar isn't adding bottom-end to recorded tracks.
If that's happening, it's something on the front-end (mics, preamps, A/D).
 
If you have the budget for boutique gear, it'll certainly deliver.
But... I think one can become "choice paralyzed" chasing perfection.
"Perfection" can also be a moving target.
No different than talking about the perfect instrument (guitar, bass, drums, keyboards, etc).
Our idea of what's "best" can change (especially over time).
At some point, fidelity is good enough.
Song and performance will handily trump all the above.
I don't think any record has ever been bought (or not) based on the converters used... or the sample-rate.
 
If the Goliath offers low-latency performance on par with the RME Fireface UFX (when connected via USB), I seriously doubt you'd be disappointed.  
 
 
 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#33
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 18:43:48 (permalink)
HighAndDry
I find it hard to believe that AVB will not work on windows



AVB (via Ethernet port) does not currently work under Windows.
FWIW, round-trip latency isn't particularly low when connecting via Ethernet... so (IMO) no big loss.
 
The AVB audio interfaces definitely do work (when connected via Thunderbolt-3) under Win10.
 
If you're working in a commercial capacity, you can get a MOTU AVB switch (to route audio to/from multiple rooms/rigs/etc)

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#34
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 18:58:36 (permalink)
vladasyn
After looking at all the numbers and options, I did something crazy, and... bought MOTU. Thank you, Rob, for suggesting it. I got Motu 1248 and Motu 16A. Just one for now, will test connections and make sure it working before I buy 2nd 16A.
So what now?
I have Asus Rog Maximus Here Z270 motherboard.
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-IX-HERO/specifications/
 
It has
1 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 (black, oval)USB Type-CTM
1 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 (red)Type-A
The MOTU rep says- check your specs- it may just work with USB Type C. This is frustrating- nobody knows for sure. Asus does not know.
 
This is the ThunderboltEX 3 card
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboard-Accessory/ThunderboltEX-3/
It actually hard to find. So do I need it? And what cable do I need? USB Type C to Thunderbolt? Thank you.




Good choice on the MOTU AVB series.
 
Important to note:
A motherboard can have USB-3.1 and not have USB-C port/s or a Thunderbolt-3 controller.
A motherboard can have USB-3.1 and USB-C port/s... and not have a Thunderbolt-3 controller.
The MOTU AVB units (any Thunderbolt peripheral for that matter) will not work if the motherboard doesn't have a Thunderbolt-3 controller.
 
Your motherboard has a Thunderbolt-3 header... which supports their TB3 add-in-card.
Install the TB3 into a full-length PCIe slot (see the instructions).
The TB3 card comes with a short cable.  Connect this to the TB3 header on the motherboard.
In the BIOS, under Thunderbolt settings, you'll need to enable USB for the card to work.
Asus is mum about this small detail.  
 
You will absolutely need a USB-C to Thunderbolt adapter.
We've had very good luck with the Apple adapter.
Relatively inexpensive... and it's worked in every scenario we've tried (many different motherboards as well as laptops).

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#35
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 21:28:10 (permalink)
HighAndDry
I find it hard to believe that AVB will not work on windows


I think he was talking about plugging the AVB directly into the LAN port which is not possible on Windows but via TB or USB you can connect one unit and then connect the others via AVB ...

Edit: Jim's replies said it all - very informative as always, nothing to add ... I liked the remark "At some point, fidelity is good enough. Song and performance will handily trump all the above. I don't think any record has ever been bought (or not) based on the converters used... or the sample-rate." We should remind ourselves more often !

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#36
vladasyn
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 21:55:03 (permalink)
Finally I hear the right answer. Thanks, Jim. I figured- I will save almost $3000- I can but all another keyboard for such money. Trying to find a Thunderbolt card now. It is ThunderboltEX 3. Ordered from some unknown retailer, they sold out everywhere. What is this cable I need? Thank you.
post edited by vladasyn - 2017/06/16 22:40:17

https://soundcloud.com/vlada-astral 
http://vladasyn.wix.com/astral#
I am a female. Windows 8.1
Custom DAW Intel Core I7 3770K, 16 Gb memory, SSD+ 2 x 2 Gb storage. Presonus StudioLive 24.
  Multiple keyboards and modules, software synths.  
#37
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/17 13:11:14 (permalink)
vladasyn
Finally I hear the right answer. Thanks, Jim. I figured- I will save almost $3000- I can but all another keyboard for such money. Trying to find a Thunderbolt card now. It is ThunderboltEX 3. Ordered from some unknown retailer, they sold out everywhere. What is this cable I need? Thank you.



The cable to connect to the TB Header on the motherboard is included with the Thunderbolt EX3.  
 
FWIW, I think you'll be very pleased with the MOTU AVB setup. 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#38
vladasyn
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/17 16:26:05 (permalink)
Ok, ordered Apple Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter ($52).
 
But what cable do I use from the MOTU to the adopter? I need 6 feet minimum distance or even 9 feet, depending which rack I will be using. Any recommendations?
 
Would it matter how long Cat 5 or Cat 6 cable is? I have my keyboards on 2 sides of my desk. I could put one MOTU in one rack on the left, another MOTU in another rack on the right. Do I have to put two units close together in the same rack for the sake of them being seen as one unit with minimal latency? I heard that Cat 5 travels pretty good, and cable length does not matter that much, or should I keep them close together? Any difference between Cat 5, Cat 5E or Cat 6? Thank you.
 
Vent: I am so angry at Presonus for not signing the drivers! I have StudioLive 24 sitting here idle because the driver is not working on the new computer. Aside of it taking huge space in the studio, I have all 24 channels taken with cables running behind my desk mixed with cables from 3 computers and 5 monitors and MIDI and USB cables for 15 keyboards and modules. How am I supposed to unplug everything and rewire? I cant pull cables- they all tangled together! I can't move my desk- it is too heavy. It has too much equipment on it- speakers, monitors, KVM switch... I was tempted to leave everything plugged to Presonus and run stereo out cable from main to MOTU. But this is not the right way to do it. Can I sue Presonus for all the inconvenience?

https://soundcloud.com/vlada-astral 
http://vladasyn.wix.com/astral#
I am a female. Windows 8.1
Custom DAW Intel Core I7 3770K, 16 Gb memory, SSD+ 2 x 2 Gb storage. Presonus StudioLive 24.
  Multiple keyboards and modules, software synths.  
#39
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/17 17:27:07 (permalink)
vladasyn
Ok, ordered Apple Thunderbolt 3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt 2 Adapter ($52).
 
But what cable do I use from the MOTU to the adopter? I need 6 feet minimum distance or even 9 feet, depending which rack I will be using. Any recommendations?
 
Would it matter how long Cat 5 or Cat 6 cable is? I have my keyboards on 2 sides of my desk. I could put one MOTU in one rack on the left, another MOTU in another rack on the right. Do I have to put two units close together in the same rack for the sake of them being seen as one unit with minimal latency? I heard that Cat 5 travels pretty good, and cable length does not matter that much, or should I keep them close together? Any difference between Cat 5, Cat 5E or Cat 6? Thank you.
 



You'll need a Thunderbolt cable.
You can get a 9.8 foot Thunderbolt cable for ~$50.
That'll connect the MOTU AVB to the Apple adapter... which will plug into the USB-C port on your Thunderbolt EX3.
 
I'd go with Cat-5e or Cat-6 cable (higher quality cable).
I believe maximum cable length is 100 meters.  
I'd keep the units close together for logistical/organizational reasons.

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#40
vladasyn
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/17 18:03:58 (permalink)
Thank you for your great help. Interestingly I already had USB-C port on my motherboard. But ok. I must of still need Thunderbolt.
 
Ok, I think I got everything. Not looking forward to repluggin everything. I am moving from older computer to new, I also need to move drives, reinstall all my synths and effects- what a mass! But thank you again for the consults. I will post back when I start having issues with connecting it all.
Thank you.

https://soundcloud.com/vlada-astral 
http://vladasyn.wix.com/astral#
I am a female. Windows 8.1
Custom DAW Intel Core I7 3770K, 16 Gb memory, SSD+ 2 x 2 Gb storage. Presonus StudioLive 24.
  Multiple keyboards and modules, software synths.  
#41
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/18 17:11:56 (permalink)
Your new setup will work great.
Super low round-trip latency...
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#42
AT
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/25 16:22:40 (permalink)
I would save myself a lot of money, time and grief by going with a Lynx Pci-e 16 AES card.  $700 or so.  A 16 channel Lynx ADDA - new model is about $3500+ and the older models can be had for a lot less.  Plenty of pros used them, and use them, so the quality is fine.  And if you need more ins just add a line mixer for your synths.  The Speck is 32 channels (stereo) inputs, 4 separate outs and runs about $2000 and is as clean as a dog whistle.  In fact, that is probably the best solution to the # of inputs you need - a mixer.  You don't really play 32 synth lines at a time.
 
Sorry to throw out a monkey wrench, but something to consider if you are spending that much.

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#43
Sir Les
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/07/02 16:26:15 (permalink)
Yeh a GOOD mixer is a good buy ...especially if it has a way to tie into the PC with proper ports AND DRIVERS FOR DAW USE....
 
That is why I bought the allen and heath r16s...It was suppose to work with sonar x1...but, had issues with motherboard nics, and wi fi, and windows it seemed more so more of issues,...and was not totally working proper with firewire at all...and I got lots of firewire cards of many types tested with TI chipsets....still no joy,  IRQ interruptions plagued the system setup...LSI 400/800 chipset worked best, and they then said that model in their known working firewire choices.
 
So yes, it is all about timing on buying into...FIREWIRE ADAPTER TO TB2 SOLVED, until updates occurred of windows 7...and then odd things with x1,x2,x3, and plat....moving me onwards to new machines..and new os 8.1...nic issues, so I bought a TB 2 audio Motu 828x...x99 and built that...pushed to win 10 to solve internet issues with onboard nic...
Is it supported properly?..TB2 went buggy...and the systems of x99 went down with win 10 screwing it all up!.
 
 
 
And in that, is a crap shoot hit and miss..
 
Sorry but it is true...we all have homework to do, always, if the base is changing...as things could change over night it seems, with one bad update, or something added into the mix causing new conflicts....makes it all futile, if not taking notes of what works, and what does not.
 
Right down to updates being buggy also, and plugins..and this or that for some but not others...and thus bios version, and or drivers/firmware put properly to either fix bugs found, or comply with new update versions of OS..by windows default Driver setup, when installing the os fresh, removing those default win drivers, and getting the proper new drivers from the cd, or manufacturers of said devices, when all is said and done installed without issue, and is working proper with devices not logging any bad issues or driver conflicts, or IRQ sharing beyond reason...(dependant on user and use, I would not share my audio device with anything)....You can then install software to use, that setup.....
 
Once it is all put right...turn off auto updates of anything wanting to do for you, and disconnect from the internet, and turn off internet nic...freeing up another IRQ.
 
And that system should run fine, if no issues of crash, or shutdown is made forced without proper shut down deployment.
 
But Windows still crashes from time to time, and corruption happens, still not sure why things just go that way with computers...So, be mindful to write it all down what you are doing and tweaking , so if it goes down, you might regain some setup, if needs be.
 
So a small note pad for each system, holding key codes and tweaks is a good method to take into accounts.
 
And Back it all up when it is properly working after testing it out for a few weeks of burn in!...try not to add to that much there after of anything new other than wave files or midi...and it should work for a bit of ..time.
 
Getting that is half the battle, and you might be locked into the update path ...never getting any bliss...but if you do....think about what I am saying...if you get that bliss, lock it down and back it up...so no changes occur at all.
 
And you be well, start sharp, keep reading up, and taking notes!...it might help others when you get it proper.
 
 
And you know I am waiting on that ...solved posting wth word and how to!
 
And I might come back to PC and sonar....and I might not..but others might try your solution if so works out.
 
Cheers!
 
 
 
 

1. Intel 5960x 3.5mhz , ASUS x99 deluxe u3.1, Asus Thunderbolt ex II,   G skills f4 3000 Memory 32GB , ADATA ssd 250GB Main Drive, Lots of WD Red 7200 Mechanical Drives with Black Drives, 14x multi optical Drive, LG Multi Blu Drive,  2X Extern WD Mybooks usb 3.0, AMD r7 270 video card, Motu 828x TB , Motu Midi XT.
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#44
perryjermaine1
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Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/08/01 05:09:30 (permalink)
vladasyn
I just called MOTU. Spoke with very knowledgeable and patient representative. He told me that AVB Ethernet will not work on Windows, but Thunderbolt should and that I can connect devices to each other via AVB. The interface will see them as single Thunderbolt or USB 2 (up to 26 inputs) interface.
 
So I can have
MOTU 1248 4 x XLR, 8 x 1/4" TRS, 2 x 1/4" (hi-Z) at $1500
MOTU 16A  16 x 1/4" TRS at $1500, I will need 2 of them, $3000
Total $4500
 
Or, if I go with Antelope Audio, I can have
Antelope Audio Orion32  4 x DB-25 (32 channels) at $3500 (includes plugins and DSP)
Antelope Audio Orion Studio HD 8 x XLR-1/4" combo (mic/line), 4 x XLR-1/4" combo (mic/line/instrument) at $3400
Total $6900
 
Or Universal Audio
Universal Audio Apollo 16 2 x DB-25 (16 inputs) Includes Plugins. Will need 2. At $3000 will be $6000 for 2.
Universal Audio Apollo 8p 8 x XLR-1/4" combo, 2 x 1/4" (Hi-Z) at $3000
That is $9000! That is not what I can afford. Did not realize that AUD is the most expansive.
 
Should I go with MOTU? Thank you.


YOU GO GURL!!!

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#45
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