Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire

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vladasyn
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2017/05/02 17:53:07 (permalink)

Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire

Hey there
Hope it not duplicate- the original thread would not show up. 
First of all- I am confused with Thunderbolt 2 and 3. My motherboard is advertised to support Thunderbolt 3 and I was told by other users that it works, but not officially listed as supported motherboard in Thunderbold card specifications on Asus web site. My Z270 Hero motherboard has Thunderbolt internal port and would use PCIE4 slot.
This is the Thunderbolt 3 card by Asus:
https://www.asus.com/us/M...ssory/ThunderboltEX-3/
 
I was looking in to buying Thunderbolt interface and all even most new interfaces that come this summer (Antelope Goliath), state that they use Thunderbolt 2. Why do they still make them Thunderbolt 2 when we have Thunderbolt 2? And how do I connect Thunderbolt 2 interface to Thunderbolt 3?
 
The reason I am looking in to buying Thunderbolt interface is because my Presonus Studio 24.4.2 original mixer is not working with SIIG TI Fire Wire card that works fine in another Win. 10 computer. There was suggestion to use Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire adopter. I need help to configure this. Thank you.
 
This is the Thread on Toms Hardware discussing my Presonus mixer issue with drivers signing and Fire Wire card, if anyone wants to relive the nightmare. Thank you.
http://www.tomshardware.c...vers-signing-work.html

https://soundcloud.com/vlada-astral 
http://vladasyn.wix.com/astral#
I am a female. Windows 8.1
Custom DAW Intel Core I7 3770K, 16 Gb memory, SSD+ 2 x 2 Gb storage. Presonus StudioLive 24.
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#1

44 Replies Related Threads

    Sir Les
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/07 08:42:37 (permalink)
    You can get a TB 3 to USB 3c adapter cable, or tb 2 to usb c? until MS gets their Crap sorted...But MS wants USB3c sales...So, you see their plans...try it out if all else fails...for the PC solution they want you to adopt usb over TB.
     
    Apple store might have what you need for that solution, if you get the Asus TB3 card, it takes or has a USB3 port....if it does get detected when you do it that way?, is to try it.
     
    Not sure about fire wire to TB3 yet?...TB2 is possible....if you find the fire wire adapter for TB 2...all tb is supposedly BWC but, TB 3 cables ends are not TB 2 able and vise versa it seems...so you might have to just get the fire wire adapter to tb2 and then, I am not sure if it will go into the TB 3 port, you might have to use a tb 2 card....as mine did not, I used TB 2 to TB 3, as my Motu device supports TB 2 and USB 3.
     
     As for the driver for the audio device driver, if something is not signed properly, that might be the weakest link....
    You can make window not address unsigned drivers...I believe.
     
    Google how to.
     
     
     
    Cheers!.
     
    PS,
    Sorry for putting you into a state of frustration on the other post, but it kept it current ,and upfront and on top,...so they worked to get it off the top 1st listings page.
     
    But I had enough of the dick arounds....You can understand I hope?,,still nothing posted to help me or others...as in tech support ...so I wonder more so now.
     
    I meant no harm to you.
     
    best of luck.
     
     
     
     
    post edited by Sir Les - 2017/05/07 09:54:40

    1. Intel 5960x 3.5mhz , ASUS x99 deluxe u3.1, Asus Thunderbolt ex II,   G skills f4 3000 Memory 32GB , ADATA ssd 250GB Main Drive, Lots of WD Red 7200 Mechanical Drives with Black Drives, 14x multi optical Drive, LG Multi Blu Drive,  2X Extern WD Mybooks usb 3.0, AMD r7 270 video card, Motu 828x TB , Motu Midi XT.
    2.  USING MAC PRO, as win 10 has damaged 2 x99 systems 8.1 is also to blame for the final burnout trying to roll back!
     
    3.  Something Wonderful: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AlHkRy9cXBbYpQNvVBCt8r7fQ5PS
    #2
    Sir Les
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/07 08:53:48 (permalink)
    one more tip..make sure you do not taunt TB cables, ..they come apart too easy...might want to make them a bit more secure, by using tape around the plug and cable ends, so the outer cable rubber does not come out of the plug and pull the wires inside that plug...or some glue gun skill...just to make sure nothing goes wrong plugging and turning and unplugging and turning...ect.ect ect...LOL...experience has lots of tells...some say...and those cables are not cheap.

    1. Intel 5960x 3.5mhz , ASUS x99 deluxe u3.1, Asus Thunderbolt ex II,   G skills f4 3000 Memory 32GB , ADATA ssd 250GB Main Drive, Lots of WD Red 7200 Mechanical Drives with Black Drives, 14x multi optical Drive, LG Multi Blu Drive,  2X Extern WD Mybooks usb 3.0, AMD r7 270 video card, Motu 828x TB , Motu Midi XT.
    2.  USING MAC PRO, as win 10 has damaged 2 x99 systems 8.1 is also to blame for the final burnout trying to roll back!
     
    3.  Something Wonderful: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AlHkRy9cXBbYpQNvVBCt8r7fQ5PS
    #3
    Sheanes
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/07 11:14:14 (permalink)
    Universal Audio have a new Apollo interface range for Windows Thunderbolt 3 and that could be less expensive than an Antelope. To fully use the power/speed they also offer an additional excelarator box that let's you use Universal Audio plugins at lower latency etc.
    Asus have a desktop computer (one of their most expensive at approx 4k) with Thunderbolt 3, you could check what motherboard is in that computer...
    You could be one of the fastest Windows DAW users in the world I guess...but I don't know Apollo specs/performance...
    Good luck
     
    post edited by Sheanes - 2017/05/07 11:58:38
    #4
    kitekrazy1
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/09 00:36:04 (permalink)
      I have a hunch TB is not a great alternative unless you go Mac.
    I'd go with an RME unit and be done with it.  Screw thunderbolt.  It's not affordable platform for Mac users either.  I think it's cost won't make it last long.

    Sonar Platinum, W7 Pro 32GB Ram, Intel i7 4790, AsRock Z97 Pro 4,  NVidia 750ti, AP2496
     
    Sonar Platinum, W7 Pro, 16GB Ram, AMD FX 6300, Gigabyte GA 970 -UD3 P, nVidia 9800GT, Guitar Port, Terratec EWX 2496
    #5
    Sir Les
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/10 00:51:19 (permalink)
    Oh if using TB 3 PCIe 1x Asus Cards, or the 2TB one by Asus, the motherboard has to have a TB header on it.
     
    That said, using a motherboard with onboard TB, will not accept the cards if it does not have that TB header on it.
     
    Just to say...Setup on the right PCIe slot can be a tricky sortings..and dependency on what else is being used...
    Let's say you use M.2...Might be when selecting this to enable in Bios, you defeat the PCIe 2 slot for , or other for TB.
    Thus a conflicting state is invoked.
    So you have to read the manual for the MB, Bios settings, and TB manuals....And it all gets confused in mind...contact the tech help by phone..ASUS ...And get it all sorted with a good techie, if so confusion is with the TB 1,2 or 3 setup on their MBs.
     
    If it already has TB onboard...just a plain firewire to TB adapter should work with that, but because of the protocols being switched up by the adapter....it is not supported as stable with all devices & drivers .
    Then again, you mention problems with signage of the audio driver, and MS.
    So, there is a way to defeat , or address MS windows signage issues, if it cannot be gotten a proper driver for this setup you wish to use.
     
    Not sure it can be solved ?..if the driver is being held under some form of policing of MS Policy agents services being interrupted or causing your problems with,  by that MS service agent on that driver signage issue, is put,  to protect the OS from harm , and your machine...But if that is the case....You will have to seek help from the Audio device manufacturing Techs for help, And MS Techies, to which I find have not solved my issues with this sort of setup, and finding signage issues with Motu.
     
    If there Is a Firewire to usb adapter?...surely you can do the workaround until things are sorted?.
     
    That would get you at least up and going, as usb and Windows are tied at the hip,...lol...Right?.
     
    Well, hope that helps you also decide, and or look into all options of the lessor before spending on more so more...and finding down the road, they screw it up again once finding bliss.
     
    Reminds me of Me...LOL.
     
    Cheers.

    1. Intel 5960x 3.5mhz , ASUS x99 deluxe u3.1, Asus Thunderbolt ex II,   G skills f4 3000 Memory 32GB , ADATA ssd 250GB Main Drive, Lots of WD Red 7200 Mechanical Drives with Black Drives, 14x multi optical Drive, LG Multi Blu Drive,  2X Extern WD Mybooks usb 3.0, AMD r7 270 video card, Motu 828x TB , Motu Midi XT.
    2.  USING MAC PRO, as win 10 has damaged 2 x99 systems 8.1 is also to blame for the final burnout trying to roll back!
     
    3.  Something Wonderful: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AlHkRy9cXBbYpQNvVBCt8r7fQ5PS
    #6
    vladasyn
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/21 15:47:23 (permalink)
    My motherboard has Thunderbolt header.
     
    Asus has Thunderbolt 2 and Thunderbolt 3 cards. I am looking in to buying TB2 audio device such as Antelope. I am wondering if I can install older Thunderbolt 2 card on newer Z270 board or if I am obligated to use TB3 card.
     
    I do not see any TB to FW adopters available.
     
    You may be on something regarding the M.2. and PCIE being disabled. I can not remember what I have my M.2 port set to- SATA or PCIe, but I do have another card (SATA card) working in PCIeX4 port. The FireFire card is in PCIeX1 slot and it does not work, but I spoke with Asus support and they did not say my settings would disable PCIeX1 slot. It also in manual but I don't undersnatd it good enough.  

    https://soundcloud.com/vlada-astral 
    http://vladasyn.wix.com/astral#
    I am a female. Windows 8.1
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    #7
    Sheanes
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/21 15:58:02 (permalink)
    would wait a while....only latest Windows 10 update unblocked Thunderbolt 3 driver writing.
    even if you get a Thunderbolt 3 board and interface, at this time it will probably not use the Thunderbolt 3 potential as the drivers are not yet ready.
    personally waiting for an RME Thunderbolt 3 interface, that should be WAY cheaper than current Universal Audio Apollo and Antelope, but might be more stable and lower latency.
    At least, that's how I see it...
    good luck
    #8
    CedricM
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/22 07:43:04 (permalink)
    There are frustratingly very few Thunderbolt 3 PCs and motherboards available.

    To answer your question, hardware manufacturers are conservative, and they need to be able to test with existing ports, that's why all audio interfaces so far are Thunderbolt 2 or 1 (same DisplayPort port) compatible, and not thunderbolt 3.
     
    However, USB type C will be the port standard for many years to come, being universal (data, video, electricity), small, very easy to use (symetrical), so I hope we'll see the first tb3 audio interfaces this year or in 2018.
     
    Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapters, such as the one from Apple, appear to work very well, even on PC.
     
     
    BTW You can forget FireWire, even its co-inventor Apple does. If you look at audio interface manufacturers, most switched to TB and USB 2 as soon as they could.
     
    On YouTube, ProTools Expert has show PCs working very well with TB2 audio interfaces from Universal Audio and FocusRite (Clarett)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1beVBMbSLIY
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBqEpOrYBrs&t=751s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fdM9j70PSc
     
     
    I'm also thinking of purchasing a thunderbolt 3 computer, probably a Laptop since there are so few desktops with it, a TB3 to TB2 adapter and a Clarett audio interface.
     
    The advantages would be next to-zero-latency, high reliability and, apparently, fantastic ad conversion.
    If you can believe Focusrite blind tests, and of course one should always take such manufacturers' own tests with a grain of salt, the interface compares favorably with most
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGgSXYletkg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RHi5CcCmsM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pymY3Z0PWRs
     
     
    #9
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/22 15:40:54 (permalink)
    vladasyn
    My motherboard has Thunderbolt header.
     
    Asus has Thunderbolt 2 and Thunderbolt 3 cards. I am looking in to buying TB2 audio device such as Antelope. I am wondering if I can install older Thunderbolt 2 card on newer Z270 board or if I am obligated to use TB3 card.




    You won't be able to choose which Thunderbolt AIC (add-in-card) you use with that particular motherboard.
    It'll support one... or the other.
    If it supports Thunderbolt-2, you don't want it.
    Microsoft only supports "PCIe via Thunderbolt" with Thunderbolt-3 (via USB-C port).
    ALL audio interfaces running via Thunderbolt-2 under Windows are running Firewire protocol over Thunderbolt.
     
    Antelope doesn't offer Thunderbolt drivers for Windows... for any of their current audio interfaces.
    If you purchase an Antelope audio interface and connect it to a PC, it'll have to run via USB.
     
    If you're looking to go Thunderbolt with your audio interface, make sure to read all the fine details.
     
    To my knowledge, only three companies have "PCIe via Thunderbolt" drivers actually available for Windows.
    • MOTU with their AVB series
    • UA with the newer Apollo series
    • RME with the Fireface UFX+
     
    For PCIe level performance from Thunderbolt, you need the following:
    • Motherboard that offers Thunderbolt-3 (via USB-C port)
    • Up-to-date install of Win10
    • USB-C to Thunderbolt-2 adapter
    • Audio interface drivers that support "PCIe via Thunderbolt"

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
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    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/22 15:49:06 (permalink)
    If you go to the Focusrite website, make sure to read the fine print on their Windows Thunderbolt support.
    https://global.focusrite.com/downloads?product=Clarett+8Pre
     
    "Known issues:
    - Glitchy audio/enumeration issues when using Thunderbolt 3 connections via an adapter. Please note that Thunderbolt 3 connectivity is NOT yet supported.
    - Cubase 8.5 crashes after the save when closing down a project with MIDI tracks.
    - Driver installer optimisations"
     
     
    Antelope does not currently offer Thunderbolt (Windows) drivers for any of their audio interfaces.
     
    As I mentioned above, if you're looking for PCIe level performance (under Windows), you've currently got three choices (MOTU, UA, RME)
     
     
     
    post edited by Jim Roseberry - 2017/05/22 18:46:41

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
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    #11
    CedricM
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/22 17:33:02 (permalink)
    Not sure what's happening, my 2nd answer was deleted. Here it is again, hope it won't appear as duplicate.
     
    Jim Roseberry
     
    To my knowledge, only three companies have "PCIe via Thunderbolt" drivers actually available for Windows.
    • MOTU with their AVB series
    • UA with the newer Apollo series
    • RME with the Fireface UFX+
     


     
    Focusrite has TB drivers for Windows in beta for the Clarett line: [link=https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/213525925-Clarett-Windows-Getting-Started]https://support.focusrite...indows-Getting-Started[/link]
     
    TB3 PC to Clarett via adapter: driver in preparation, does not work yet.
     
    I don't understand what you say about TB2. You will be perfectly able to drive a TB 1/2 audio interface from a TB2 PC, as long as drivers are available.
     
    TB3 to TB2 is not guaranteed, as the port is physically different. However, some TB3 + TB2 adapter do work, if not officially, see my post above.
     
    For an example of TB3 PC to TB2 audio interface that works (with Apple 30$ TB3-TB2 converter), see https://youtu.be/9fdM9j70PSc
    It's a NUC to UA Apollo.
     
     
    #12
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/22 18:32:42 (permalink)
    FWIW, Your post is lacking some important details.  
     
    ANY audio interface that is running under Windows via Thunderbolt-2 is running "Firewire protocol via Thunderbolt"... not "PCIe via Thunderbolt".  
     
    Microsoft does not support "PCIe via Thunderbolt" for Thunderbolt-2 (only Thunderbolt-3).
     
    Using the link above... to the Focusrite Thunderbolt "Clarette Windows || Getting Started" page:
    Notice the ASIO buffer size is 64-samples... and the (relatively) high round-trip latency.
    That's because the driver isn't running "PCIe via Thunderbolt".  
    It's running "Firewire protocol via Thunderbolt".
    Does it work? yes... (performance similar to connecting via Firewire controller card)
    Does it offer PCIe level performance? Absolutely not.
     
    Someone looking for a Thunderbolt audio interface is most likely looking for PCIe level performance.
    17.4ms total round-trip latency at a 64-sample ASIO buffer size is not what this person is seeking.
     
     
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #13
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/22 18:33:43 (permalink)
    Duplicate post

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #14
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/22 18:39:17 (permalink)


    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #15
    CedricM
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/24 09:53:36 (permalink)
    Jim Roseberry
    FWIW, Your post is lacking some important details.  
     
    ANY audio interface that is running under Windows via Thunderbolt-2 is running "Firewire protocol via Thunderbolt"... not "PCIe via Thunderbolt".  
    Microsoft does not support "PCIe via Thunderbolt" for Thunderbolt-2 (only Thunderbolt-3).

    Can you please post links to sources that confirm this?
     
    Have you looked at the videos linked ?
    UA Apollo TB works really well with both a TB2 Windows computer and a TB3 Windows computer, at least with pro tools.
     
    I found an interesting & long thread on Gearslutz on TB support in Windows 10, with someone from Microsoft participating. I'll read it in full, at the latest this weekend.
     
    Cheers
    https://www.gearslutz.com...port-windows-10-a.html
    #16
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/24 14:58:30 (permalink)
    Look at the control panel picture I posted above for the Clarett.
    Look at the total input/output latency.
    There's no way that driver is running "PCIe via Thunderbolt".
    Yes, it works... but it's offering nothing similar to PCIe level performance.
    Actually, that's poor performance compared to a USB-2 audio interface.
    ie: RME Fireface UFX yields 4.3ms total round-trip latency at those same settings.
     
    Microsoft doesn't support "PCIe via Thunderbolt" for Thunderbolt 2 controllers.
    Read the thread on GS.  
     
    The original UA Apollo does work connected to a Thunderbolt-2 port.
    BUT... it's running "Firewire protocol via Thunderbolt"... not "PCIe via Thunderbolt".
     
    Directly from the UA Website:

    "Thunderbolt for Windows is here!

    As of UAD v9.0.0 (available here), all UAD Thunderbolt devices are compatible with Windows 10 PCs that have built-in Thunderbolt via USB-C.* For compatibility details, please see the articles for your device below.
    *Note: A qualified Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt adapter is required. See the links below for more info."
     

    "Apollo Thunderbolt Windows Compatibility

     About UAD Thunderbolt Compatibility with Windows 10 Systems
    • UAD v9.1 introduces Windows 10 PC mixed multi-unit compatibility with all Thunderbolt-equipped Apollo and UAD-2 products (Apollo 8, Apollo 8p, Apollo 16 MkII, Apollo Twin Thunderbolt, Apollo Twin MkII, UAD-2 Satellite Thunderbolt, and first-generation silver Apollo/Apollo 16 models equipped with a Thunderbolt Option Card).
    • Apollo Thunderbolt models can be combined with UAD-2 PCIe cards and UAD-2 Satellite (Thunderbolt, FireWire, and USB models). For details, see this article.
    • Both the original Thunderbolt 1 Option Card and the newer Thunderbolt 2 Option Card for Apollo are compatible.
    • Apollo Thunderbolt cannot be combined with Apollo FireWire or Apollo Twin USB (multiple Apollo connection types are incompatible).
     
    UAD Thunderbolt Compatibility Requirements
    • A Windows 10 PC computer featuring built-in Thunderbolt 3 via USB-C is required.
    • Windows 10 Anniversary Update 64-bit edition (version 1607 or higher) is required. Earlier versions of Windows are not tested or supported.
    • qualified Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt adapter (not included) is required to connect Universal Audio Thunderbolt products to the USB-C port on the computer.
    • Apollo Thunderbolt audio drivers for Windows are 64 bit only. 32 bit DAW applications are not compatible. 
    • PCIe to Thunderbolt adapters, Thunderbolt to FireWire adapters, and Thunderbolt hubs are not tested or supported and may cause unexpected behavior.
    • Connections to Thunderbolt 1 or Thunderbolt 2 computer ports are not tested or supported.
    • Using Apple's Boot Camp to run Windows on Mac computers with Apollo or UAD-2 devices is not tested or supported.
    • For general UAD system requirements, see this article."

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #17
    ampfixer
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/25 23:53:23 (permalink)
    I wouldn't make any big investment right now. I read yesterday that the people that developed TB3 and own the rights will be dropping the license fee next year and open it up to the market. They want some saturation in the I/O market and figure making it royalty free will encourage manufacturers to adopt it for computer design and make it more popular for 3rd party developers. This could change a lot in the PC world.

    Regards, John 
     I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps.
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    #18
    vladasyn
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/05/29 04:43:11 (permalink)
    Thank you for the good information. By the time I read this thread, I called to Antelope and to my disappointment, they told me that if I want to use their new goliath. $7000 interface, I would have to use it with USB3. They claim that it works as good as Thunderbolt. What you think about this option?
     
    This makes me wonder:
    "PCIe to Thunderbolt adapters, Thunderbolt to FireWire adapters, and Thunderbolt hubs are not tested or supported and may cause unexpected behavior."
     
    My motherboard, Rog Maximus Hero Z270 has USB-C port and connector for Thunderbolt 3. It would need a PCIEX4 card to use Thunderbolt 3, and I still not sure how it connects to USB-C- does it mean that the USB-C will be taken (in use)? So what do they mean by PCIe to Thunderbolt adapter? My motherboard has port but not a card, so is this card considered to be PCIe adopter or not?
     
    The reason I wanted to go with Antelope is because I am a keyboardist and I have many keyboards- currently all my 24 tracks on Presonus FireWire mixer are taken. I need new interface to connect all my keyboards in stereo. I am not sure if I can trust UAD Apollo 16 and Apollo 8 or 8p connected together to work flawlessly as one. Or would it?
     
    I also noted on AUD site it said- Apple adopter is not working, to find something else.

    https://soundcloud.com/vlada-astral 
    http://vladasyn.wix.com/astral#
    I am a female. Windows 8.1
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      Multiple keyboards and modules, software synths.  
    #19
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/02 14:54:08 (permalink)
    vladasyn
    Thank you for the good information. By the time I read this thread, I called to Antelope and to my disappointment, they told me that if I want to use their new goliath. $7000 interface, I would have to use it with USB3. They claim that it works as good as Thunderbolt. What you think about this option?
     
    This makes me wonder:
    "PCIe to Thunderbolt adapters, Thunderbolt to FireWire adapters, and Thunderbolt hubs are not tested or supported and may cause unexpected behavior."
     
    My motherboard, Rog Maximus Hero Z270 has USB-C port and connector for Thunderbolt 3. It would need a PCIEX4 card to use Thunderbolt 3, and I still not sure how it connects to USB-C- does it mean that the USB-C will be taken (in use)? So what do they mean by PCIe to Thunderbolt adapter? My motherboard has port but not a card, so is this card considered to be PCIe adopter or not?
     
    The reason I wanted to go with Antelope is because I am a keyboardist and I have many keyboards- currently all my 24 tracks on Presonus FireWire mixer are taken. I need new interface to connect all my keyboards in stereo. I am not sure if I can trust UAD Apollo 16 and Apollo 8 or 8p connected together to work flawlessly as one. Or would it?
     
    I also noted on AUD site it said- Apple adopter is not working, to find something else.




    The best USB-2 audio interfaces are pretty close in performance to Thunderbolt-2 audio interfaces.
    ie:  The RME Fireface UFX offers 4.3ms total round-trip latency at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k.
    The UA Apollo yields ~4.4ms total round-trip latency at a 32-sample ASIO buffer size.
     
    USB-3 has plenty of bandwidth... 
    Thus far, we've yet to see any USB-3 audio interfaces that best the low-latency performance of the best USB-2 units.
    If Antelope delivers round-trip latency (and rock-solid performance) equal to the RME Fireface UFX, I have no doubt you'd be happy with the Goliath.
     
    Asus chose to make Thunderbolt-3 an AIC (add-in-card) option for their motherboards.
    Gigabyte offers Thunderbolt-3 directly on select motherboards.
    I prefer the later... (but it doesn't affect performance)
     
    Regarding the disclaimers:
    I'd tested the Apple Thunderbolt-3 (USB-C) to Thunderbolt-2 adapter with several machines (2017 MacBook Pro, our Platinum Laptop, our Platinum Studio DAW).
    Using a new UA Apollo, the Apple adapter worked in every scenario.
     
    The UA Apollo series (connected via Thunderbolt) doesn't break new ground as far as lower round-trip latency, but the units work well.
    The specs UA publishes are real.
    I measured the noise-floor of the Apollo Twin Duo mkII... and the average noise floor was below -116dB.
     
    A single Goliath vs. a pair of Apollos would be a tough decision.
    You'd have about the same round-trip latency... and equally great fidelity.
    Both offer DSP processing.
     
    If looking at Thunderbolt based audio interfaces (running under Windows), make sure to know all the fine details.
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #20
    HighAndDry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/15 08:06:56 (permalink)
    I am looking for a thunderbolt 3 motherboard to use with my motu 1248 avb.  any tests done with motu Jim?  also, those boards seem pricy.  
    http://www.microcenter.co...d_with_USB_Type-C?ob=1

    I
     guess there are cheaper.  Another question.  any socket 1150 that work?

    ASRock Z97 Pro 4 Motherboard
    Chipset : Intel Z97
    Intel i7 4790k
    32 gb Ballistix (crucial) 1600 DDR3 ram

    Corsair 330R case Corsair Rm750 ultra quiet power supply
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    Motu 1248 AVB
    Mackie Onyx Blackbird 16 x16 FW
    Sonar Platinum

    #21
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/15 10:32:59 (permalink)
    HighAndDry
    I am looking for a thunderbolt 3 motherboard to use with my motu 1248 avb.  any tests done with motu Jim?  also, those boards seem pricy.  
    http://www.microcenter.co...d_with_USB_Type-C?ob=1

    I
     guess there are cheaper.  Another question.  any socket 1150 that work?



    Thunderbolt (on the PC side) is somewhat of a "luxury" option... so it's typically only available on higher-end boards.
    At the moment, LEDs are all the rage.  
     
    Microsoft only supports "PCIe via Thunderbolt" with Thunderbolt-3.
    Unfortunately that eliminates all motherboards with Thunderbolt-2.
     
    If all the following is in place, Thunderbolt-3 will work great.
    • Z170/Z270/X99 motherboard that provides Thunderbolt-3 via USB-C port
    • Audio interface that has full "PCIe via Thunderbolt" drivers actually available
    • Up-to-date install of Win10
    • USB-C to Thunderbolt-2 adapter
    MOTU has full "PCIe via Thunderbolt" drivers for the AVB series.
    There have been reports that the Apple USB-C to Thunderbolt adapter (relatively inexpensive) has been problematic.
    We've had good luck with the Apple USB-C to Thunderbolt adapter.
    Tested it with several different audio interfaces... using many different motherboards and laptops... and it always worked fine.
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #22
    HighAndDry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/15 19:32:43 (permalink)
    Thanks Jim!!! 
    It looks like this one will work? I can avoid buying a new processor. 
    https://www.newegg.com/Pr...w_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

    ASRock Z97 Pro 4 Motherboard
    Chipset : Intel Z97
    Intel i7 4790k
    32 gb Ballistix (crucial) 1600 DDR3 ram

    Corsair 330R case Corsair Rm750 ultra quiet power supply
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    Mackie Onyx Blackbird 16 x16 FW
    Sonar Platinum

    #23
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/15 21:02:34 (permalink)
    Unfortunately, that motherboard doesn't have Thunderbolt-3.
     
    It gets confusing...
    A motherboard can have USB-3.1 and not have a USB-C port or Thunderbolt-3 controller (which is the case for that motherboard). 
    A motherboard can have USB-3.1 and USB-C port/s... and still not have a Thunderbolt-3 controller.
    Many current generation motherboards fall into this category.
     
    Your choices are Z170, Z270, or X99 chipset motherboards...
    Nothing prior to that will provide Thunderbolt-3.
     
     
     

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #24
    HighAndDry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/15 21:44:43 (permalink)
    Ok Jim  Thank you!!  maybe it is better to wait a bit and see what happens with thunderbolt

    ASRock Z97 Pro 4 Motherboard
    Chipset : Intel Z97
    Intel i7 4790k
    32 gb Ballistix (crucial) 1600 DDR3 ram

    Corsair 330R case Corsair Rm750 ultra quiet power supply
    Win 10 64 bit

    Motu 1248 AVB
    Mackie Onyx Blackbird 16 x16 FW
    Sonar Platinum

    #25
    vladasyn
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 03:19:23 (permalink)
    My post keeps disappearing! Why?
     
    Thanks again for good information. When I was visiting Antelope web site, I signed preorder for Orion Studio HD and Goliath HD just to know when it becomes available. So now Orion Studio HD is available for Preorder and they contacted me. We had some e-mail conversation regarding the number of inputs and outputs and no Thunderbolt. I learned that the company's headquarter is in Bulgaria. I do not know where they manufacturing their product and what technology style they using but I have mixed feelings about European, especially East European electronics. I am from Ukraine, and I grew up using Russian and Ukrainian audio equipment and it was always good. Massive metal casing, many metal parts... good sound quality, about 5 years life cycle. After 5 years it usually would begin getting noisy. I understand why I liked Goliath interface- it looks solid and European.
     
    They confirmed that they not going to have Thunderbolt for Windows any time soon, but that USB3 works as good as Thunderbolt and there is no latency. I will take their word for it. But the price is nearly impossible. I tried to convince myself that $7000 one time is not that bad, that I will use it for many years, that it is time to grow up and get Class A audio interface... but when it is close on the horizon and almost time to open my bank account, $7000 looks huge. I don't know if I want to do it.
     
    I was looking in to like Orion HD and Orion 32HD combination, but that comes close to 7k as well. I was asking them about HDX connection. I am NOT a Protools user, but I wanted to know if I cam use HDX port to connect 2 Orions to each other to make it work as one. They said- they will have to test it- they don't know. How can they not know?
     
    Can I buy Protools PCIe card with HDX connector and not use Protools software? (My guess- no). And if not- why cant I connect 2 HDX units to each other? Must be again- need for some Protool software element. One more reason to hate Avid.
     
    I totally don't know what to do. I need high Inputs count for my hardware synths. I need at least 30 TRS inputs and 2 mic Preamps.
     
    Nobody else makes 32 inputs interfaces, but Orion as well as Motu 16 ins versions have no headphones outputs!!!! I use headphones for everything. Any suggestions?
     
    Is there any hope that Universal Audio will release something in summer NAMM? I only think it because they have big promotion with "will give $3500 in software if you buy our interface before June 30th". Why June 30th? Thank you.    

    https://soundcloud.com/vlada-astral 
    http://vladasyn.wix.com/astral#
    I am a female. Windows 8.1
    Custom DAW Intel Core I7 3770K, 16 Gb memory, SSD+ 2 x 2 Gb storage. Presonus StudioLive 24.
      Multiple keyboards and modules, software synths.  
    #26
    Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 05:36:21 (permalink)
    vladasyn
     
    Nobody else makes 32 inputs interfaces, but Orion as well as Motu 16 ins versions have no headphones outputs!!!! I use headphones for everything. Any suggestions?
     



    not sure what specifically you are needing in terms of I/O but are you aware that the MOTU AVB series is fully scalable using standard LAN connection? and they got Thunderbolt support developed. pick 2 or 3 MOTU interfaces, hook them up with a MOTU proprietary switch and you got something in the range of 32 - 48 physical I/O at close to zero latency ... not cheap but probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the number you gave in your posts ...

    GOOD TUNES LAST FOREVER
      +++   Visit the Rehab   +++
     
    DAW: Platinum/X3e, win10 64 bit, i7-3930K (6x3.2GHz), Asus Sabertooth X79, 32 GB DDR3 1600MHz, ATI HD 5450, 120 GB SSD OCZ Agility3, 2x 1TB WD HDD SATA 600
    Audio-Interface: 2x MOTU 1248 AVB, Focusrite OctoPre, (Roland Octa-Capture)   Control-Surface: VS-700C 
    VSTi: WAVES, NI K10u, FabFilter, IK, ... (too many really) 
    #27
    vladasyn
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 15:48:02 (permalink)
    Thank you for your reply.
     
    I was looking in to Antelope Audio or Universal Audio because it "supposed to be" Class A gear. I am not sure how much better my mixes would sound but I remember the difference when I switched from Helix Phonic to Presonus. When I was using Phonic, I thought it sounded ok. Now that I am used to Presonus, I open older songs recorded with Presonus and I hear difference- everything is grainy as if it had lower sample rate. Actually it was 16bit.
     
    Always wondering why my mixes still sound as project recording, not professional. Yeah, I know- it is plugins and experience, but I have almost all leading plugins on the market and 20 years of experience of doing MY project- why is it that I still can not get it right?
     
    So I thought- may be I need to buy Protools rig? That way I will sound like a professional? I don't know if it is Windows or if it is Sonar algorithm, but every track has waaay too much bass, I spend too much time EQing everything. The only reason I did not install Protools is that I use many software synths and Protools not able to run VST and I don't have AU installed for anything.
     
    So MOTU always had a reputation of being Mac interface and I remember multiple posts on the forums of users having problems on Windows. Also I remember MOTU back when they started. At that time, there were 2 options: M-Audio or MOTU. I was using M-Audio, and used to not take it seriously. To me- MOTU and M-Audio are Class B gear for beginners and project studios. I want to try the real deal Class A gear. Please, prove me wrong. Do you think MOTU is Class A gear? I don't fall for the "high price = good quality." I think $7000 for Goliath is overkill. This is why I cant decide. But I would have hard time to think of MOTU as Class A. To me it is consumer level interface. But then again. My keyboards are old, many of them not class A on output.
     
    It would be great if somebody wrote the audio driver that allows multiple audio interfaces to be connected at the same time. Windows driver used to be able to do it. Why is ASIO only able to recognize one unit I don't know.
     
    Thank you.  

    https://soundcloud.com/vlada-astral 
    http://vladasyn.wix.com/astral#
    I am a female. Windows 8.1
    Custom DAW Intel Core I7 3770K, 16 Gb memory, SSD+ 2 x 2 Gb storage. Presonus StudioLive 24.
      Multiple keyboards and modules, software synths.  
    #28
    vladasyn
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 16:48:43 (permalink)
    I just called MOTU. Spoke with very knowledgeable and patient representative. He told me that AVB Ethernet will not work on Windows, but Thunderbolt should and that I can connect devices to each other via AVB. The interface will see them as single Thunderbolt or USB 2 (up to 26 inputs) interface.
     
    So I can have
    MOTU 1248 4 x XLR, 8 x 1/4" TRS, 2 x 1/4" (hi-Z) at $1500
    MOTU 16A  16 x 1/4" TRS at $1500, I will need 2 of them, $3000
    Total $4500
     
    Or, if I go with Antelope Audio, I can have
    Antelope Audio Orion32  4 x DB-25 (32 channels) at $3500 (includes plugins and DSP)
    Antelope Audio Orion Studio HD 8 x XLR-1/4" combo (mic/line), 4 x XLR-1/4" combo (mic/line/instrument) at $3400
    Total $6900
     
    Or Universal Audio
    Universal Audio Apollo 16 2 x DB-25 (16 inputs) Includes Plugins. Will need 2. At $3000 will be $6000 for 2.
    Universal Audio Apollo 8p 8 x XLR-1/4" combo, 2 x 1/4" (Hi-Z) at $3000
    That is $9000! That is not what I can afford. Did not realize that AUD is the most expansive.
     
    Should I go with MOTU? Thank you.

    https://soundcloud.com/vlada-astral 
    http://vladasyn.wix.com/astral#
    I am a female. Windows 8.1
    Custom DAW Intel Core I7 3770K, 16 Gb memory, SSD+ 2 x 2 Gb storage. Presonus StudioLive 24.
      Multiple keyboards and modules, software synths.  
    #29
    HighAndDry
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    Re: Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 to Fire Wire 2017/06/16 17:01:59 (permalink)
    I find it hard to believe that AVB will not work on windows

    ASRock Z97 Pro 4 Motherboard
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    Intel i7 4790k
    32 gb Ballistix (crucial) 1600 DDR3 ram

    Corsair 330R case Corsair Rm750 ultra quiet power supply
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    Motu 1248 AVB
    Mackie Onyx Blackbird 16 x16 FW
    Sonar Platinum

    #30
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