If there truly is a problem with the Pro Channel (and in another thread Noel (I think it was) confirmed that they were able to reproduce the problem) there will be a fix... because Pro Channel not working right is unacceptable to both Cake and the end user. So, there will be something to fix it... I just hope they can fix it without the "law of unintended consequenses" kicking in and causing the fix to break something else.

Whether is will be called "c" or a hotfix, I don't know and don't care as long as it works right. I expect it to come as fast as they can get it done because, unless I am mistaken the Pro Channel is a "biggie" in X1 and has to work right. I am now afraid to use the Pro Channel because from reading the problem thread I am not sure if I can trust what the settings are showing on the Pro Channel... the whole thing about this particular problem is confusing. Since I am trying to learn I cannot afford to learn something that isn't working right... I wouldn't know it was wrong, if you know what I mean. I can tell if something flat don't work but if it just isn't working correctly... I might not know it considering my level of experience. I have to assume something is working right if it is working.
Also in that thread the baker stated that no one had reported the bug and this was the first they had heard of it and that they do not use the forums to pick up on bugs... if it isn't properly submitted as a bug, it won't get fixed. I thought that was a little odd, in some of my other areas of interest manufacturers monitor forums and have input and pick up on bugs there. I cannot understand why someone at CW isn't browsing here daily to be sure that they are getting all the info possible, in order to make their product be as good as they can make it... doesn't that make sense? That surprised me... that they would say that online. It just sounds odd, like there must be something between the lines or in the background. I almost get the feeling that there may be some corporate friction or something but that is only a wild guess and opinion based on nothing more than a statement that struck me as odd considering...

JRB

ba_midi

Silk, I've read many of your posts regarding the cross talk bug and haven't run into it being a problem because I'm one of those users Billy refers to who is working (in a very amateurish way) merrily along and really loving X1.

Just for the record - I want it to be clear I have never called you or anyone else amateurs.   The program is starting to feel that way to me, yes - but I don't put a quality on anyone here unless for a specific reason/purpose/etc.

I know you didn't mean I called you that, but others reading the post may interpret that differently so I just wanted to be clear, Larry.

I know what you mean and I agree fully. The bug I've been yammering on about for years is probably something that isn't encountered directly by many people. This is something though that is a show-stopper for me, or anyone that relies on plugins like Catanya or Thesys - plugins that work well when using multiple instances of them. There is no work-around for that scenario. Even if you have just a single instance of such a plugin, doing something as simple as recording MIDI from an external source onto an unrelated MIDI track is compromised. Even the work-around of choosing a specific channel for the external MIDI you are recording doesn't work properly because you will still end up with stuck or hung notes on the recorded MIDI. Trust me, I've tried every so called work-around in the book - there just isn't a real work-around. Why else would I be so frustrated after all these years?
 
However, while I realize this isn't a workflow that many people follow, what people should realize is that this is an indication that there is a bug deep inside Sonar's MIDI implementation, and this could affect your MIDI data in unexpected ways. How many people have not had weird unexplained MIDI behavior yet? And my guess is that if people inserted multiple instances of a plugin that sends MIDI events out, and Sonar crashes, that they would almost always come to the conclusion that the plugin is buggy. It is the conclusion that makes the most sense. But it isn't the right conclusion.
 
As a software developer myself (with my own list of bugs assigned to me), a bug like this would make me sit up and take notice. It indicates something deep down is broken, and could be affecting all sorts of MIDI functionality. This is MIDI Routing 101 that Sonar fails to get right. It just baffles my mind that CW chooses to ignore this, release after release, patch after patch (I think we are now at something like 7 or 8 releases + patches later after CWBRN-1336 was originally logged). Instead they choose to fix all the fluffy bugs. CW has some serious bug triaging problems.
 
I have also become used to the fact that people often just don't understand the real issue, and being told to "quit the forum", "don't get wound up", "CW must have kicked my dog" (yes, that one is real too). Whatever, I think I wasted enough of my time trying to help CW get this issue fixed. It just isn't worth the effort any more.

ba_midi

Silk, I've read many of your posts regarding the cross talk bug and haven't run into it being a problem because I'm one of those users Billy refers to who is working (in a very amateurish way) merrily along and really loving X1.

Just for the record - I want it to be clear I have never called you or anyone else amateurs.   The program is starting to feel that way to me, yes - but I don't put a quality on anyone here unless for a specific reason/purpose/etc.

I know you didn't mean I called you that, but others reading the post may interpret that differently so I just wanted to be clear, Larry.

Yeah no offense, my intent was simply to state clearly that I am indeed a very amateur user. Sometimes there's some sarcasm that can be read into these posts but non intended in this case. I simply meant that I fit the profile you so clearly point to that may not run into some of these problems.

thomasabarnes

But because you choose to mock some of us who are content with X1, and refer to us as cheerleaders, I have something to say.

I didn't in any way read Billy's posts as mocking anyone! And there certainly are some cheerleaders on the forum. That in itself isn't a bad thing but when those people dismiss legitimate complaints and issues that other users have it becomes a problem.

I don't see why you choose to associate the term cheerleader with yourself. Any particular reason?

It astounds me to see some users make these posts with such a lack of respect for Cakewalk's ingenuity and built reputation as a leader in DAW software development for the PC.

The reputation as a leader in DAW development is old IMO. They haven't come up with much innovative stuff for quite a few years and if anything are now lagging behind the competition. To be clear: Just changing stuff doesn't count. And some of the fancy stuff like X-Ray is really rather gimmicky. It has to be new AND better! And no, calling X1 DAW 2.0 does not make it so.

I even feel that many of the "old" innovations were not very useful. I am still waiting for anyone to pick up my challenge of being able to tell the difference between a full mix with the 64 nit engine turned on or off. And I still believe that investing in x64 development at the time that Cakewalk did it took away precious resources from much more practical and useful stuff.

As for reputations, they are hard to build and extremely easy to destroy as I think the whole X1 story shows. That is just the way things work. (Both for companies and people).

Some seem to be so quick to forget what Cakewalk has produced.

A cook is only ever as good as his last dish. This is a very important thing for anyone in business to understand. It might not be fair but that is the way the world works.

 Yet, the same users speak so highly of SONAR 8.5 or previous versions of SONAR.

Wait a minute, I have never spoken highly of SONAR 8.5. It has been a while since I have been complaining about various aspects of SONAR. Does that mean I can keep complaining? ;-)  But seriously, you seem to forget that many people have been complaining for a while now. Since before X1 was released. Do you remember the first "open letter to Cakewalk"? That was more than a year ago and it stemmed from the frustrations of many over the years. (And not even just with 8.5!). Not least because there are many old bugs that have been left in year after year. Some of the people behind that letter are not even around any more because they were so disappointed in X1. (Jose and eratu come to mind).

Unless of course we are allowed to turn your logic around: Cakewalk should give us X1 for free as because of all the support and payments we have done in the past. Ah you see, that doesn't work.  So if there are reasons to complain about X1 then that is all that counts. The past is the past and as such is rather irrelevant.

So to me it seems that it is you that is forgetting how things really are/were rather than the people that are unsatisfied with the way Cakewalk have developed over the years.

The fact alone that users praise 8.5 so frequently, now, is proof that Cakewalk knows how to make good DAW software,

No it isn't. It could just be that 8.5.3 has gained new shine because of how disappointing X1 is.

but instead of giving Cakewalk the time needed to solidify what is really a new piece of software, some users pounce on Cakewalk asserting Cake is going about it the wrong way and offering what they strongly feel is the way to go about developing this new product.

X1 is not a new product. It is just a facelift and in the process of giving SONAR a facelift, Cakewalk lost the eyebrows and nostrils. ;-)

Anyway, even if it were a completely new product, that is meaningless for the customers. If Cakewalk needed more time to get everything in X1 to the level that it was in 8.5.3 (plus new features) then they should have taken more time.

And pouncing on Cakewalk as if they have no history of DAW development or either making comments suggesting that Cakewalk no longer cares about it's customers and settle for producing a lower quality product than what their record of history shows.

I think you are forgetting much of the history. For instance: I have been complaining about SONAR's gapping since, I think, Sonar 3. That is 7 years I believe.

What we have here is a lack of respect.

Respect is like reputations. Easily lost. Anyway, all the respect a company deserves is payment. That's it. (Of course you can respsect individual employees but that is a different thing. I am talking about Cakewalk as an abstract entity, a company).

I appreciate what Cakewalk has done for me in bringing me SONAR. I'm happy with SONAR, so naturally, I speak possitively about it. If I'm tagged a cheerleader, of well. 2,4,6,8 who do we appreciate: Cakewalk! :)

:-) I like your positive attitude but please don't forget that we are customers to a company. Cakewalk are not our buddy or favourite football team ;).

 P.S Oh yeah, maybe some of you will have better experiences if you just broke off and made your own DAW software. :)

I hope you realise this is a silly comment, right?

UnderTow

The written comments that are most revealing are like this:

"I'm gettin real tired of reading this stuff."

Those frontal lobes are fur shur working.

A "BIG" + 1 to Ba_midi and Undertow!
If everything is working great for the people that it is, then those people shouldn't be concerned about others peoples issues, then go make some music! 
People with problems are posting because they have legitimate problems with software that was paid for and  is not working for them "on systems that 8.5.3 worked flawless on" If X1 is working for you, great go make music, but let the people with problems post as they wish, its their right!
Tommy

amiller

ba_midi


What I never understand is why those who claim to be doing well with X1 get upset with those who are not...

That's a very good point. In fact, why are those that are happy using X1 even in here.  I mean, if you're happy with X1 then...go make music...go be happy.  If you buy a product that works for you you don't go and hang out at the complaints department and tell the folks waiting in line how well the product works for you.  That's like implying that the folks waiting in line are crazy or liars...what's the point?

On the other hand, some folks here have some real issues (most documented by Cake in the "bug list") that they want addressed so that they can be happy too and NOT NEED TO BE HERE.  Really, I come to this forum for answers.  If X1 were working correctly for me I'd be off making music and not wasting my time here...just saying

I come here to learn and to share knowledge -- to help where I can.  It's just becoming so strenuous to be here that I find myself not caring as much about the forum.  I'd rather not feel that way but I do.  It's gotten VERY polarized.
 
I understand the frustration some people have with the wild and wacky people that sometimes fill the forum with pure venom or outright attitude.   NONE of us should like that or tolerate it.
 
But it seems the lines of distinction have been blurred.   Some start to paint everything with a broad brush - and no one knows who things are being directed at/to.   I'm guilty of that sometimes too.  But I make an effort to be clear as best I can.
 
But yeah ---  _some_ of those doing well seem to want to dismiss or demean those having/finding problems.   It's become a spectator sport atmosphere.
 
IF X1 was working for me as well as 8.5.3, I'd gladly be in here helping others work through the problems (I actually do where/when I can) and at least treating them with respect and consideration.
 
The polarization has just become so intense that I feel bad for newer users who want to learn things or work through problems.
 
And yes there are those who really need a lesson in civility and sensibility -- but they're easy to spot.   Just ignore 'em.
 
Most of us have one goal:  a working, functional, as bug free as possible, useful, productive tool (DAW).   Most of us want Cakewalk to succeed and want X1 to do likewise.   So all the flack some of us get for expressing our problems and being upset in not being able to use the product as we would like just seems unreasonable and unproductive in general.
 
Agreed:  if you're doing well ...GO MAKE MUSIC.  BE HAPPY.   Let the rest of us help Cake make a better product because we are, in fact, finding issues some of you are not - even though it's not our job to do so.
 
 
 

amiller

ba_midi


What I never understand is why those who claim to be doing well with X1 get upset with those who are not...

That's a very good point. In fact, why are those that are happy using X1 even in here.  I mean, if you're happy with X1 then...go make music...go be happy.  If you buy a product that works for you you don't go and hang out at the complaints department and tell the folks waiting in line how well the product works for you.  That's like implying that the folks waiting in line are crazy or liars...what's the point?

On the other hand, some folks here have some real issues (most documented by Cake in the "bug list") that they want addressed so that they can be happy too and NOT NEED TO BE HERE.  Really, I come to this forum for answers.  If X1 were working correctly for me I'd be off making music and not wasting my time here...just saying

Two things wrong with the above. First no one is upset with anyone that has a problem with Sonar. I have been on this forum when it first came to be. I assure you all; what motivated me then still motivates me now.  1 to learn as much as I can about Sonar and 2 to help my fellow users.

What some of us are tired of and not so much upset about is the CW/X1 bashing and snide remarks. 

I feel bad for anyone having problems with any version of Sonar. Through the years a ton of posters have had lots problems with it. This is not new. What is new is the constant negativity being always present no matter if so many do not have problems with it.

In a way its the tone of the posts that get some of us fed up with those that have nothing but woe am I for upgrading to say.

The thought that this version which is much the same as the last version as far as features are concerned is labeled "amateurish" by a few makes no sense to me with the same power and feature set in the past. After all isn't it the feature set that makes something pro versus amateur or better consumer oriented?  Yet this notion is being thrown around with some amount of agreement.

What I would like is for those that always post some negative comment stop and think is this going to help any one?

As to reporting bugs I have talked about that and I think its our duty to report any bug we find and to post about it here but, and this is my second point, this is not a complaint forum. That is what Tech support is for. No one on this forum can do anything about fixing a complaint. This is a peer to peer forum trying to offer help for each of us to learn and solve problems as best we can.

No one wants to come here and read rants.  No one is helped by bashing X1 except the competition.
And no one is helped by criticizing those that are not having problems with X1.

ba_midi


What I never understand is why those who claim to be doing well with X1 get upset with those who are not.

I don't say to those doing well "HEY GET LOST you''re doing well!"

Yet people like Thomas would rid this forum of people who say "THINGS ARE BROKEN - PLEASE FIX".

Where's the logic in all that?

How is that helping Cakewalk or anyonoe?

Bug fixes are not partisan.  They work for everyone.

But broken features don't work for everyone.

good point billy..i feel the same way only its the people that get mad at me for saying..I " CLAIM " to be doing well.
so its a mutual thing..dont think your alone in that department.were both labeled with something.

i also think another thing that is baffling is how some problems are effecting some yet others are do not have a problem at all..then what..soundcards?previous versions?..maybe if we all worked together rather than fighting eachother we could find more solutions and bring this forum back to what it once was.(some backround music please)
i believe this forum to be the drink of knowledge,fanboi,whiners,if we unite we could solve problems a lot faster and it would be a better inviorment to be.
so if you elect me as your sonar president i promice to bring the laughs back..the laughs we had back in the 8.5.3 days..remember weather we like it or not..x1 is out and it IS the future.
theres no going back so make the best of it and enjoy the music you make..and the other half of the fun is this forum my friends..so if your not having fun in here..your only having half the fun.

John

...
Two things wrong with the above. First no one is upset with anyone that has a problem with Sonar...

Really, John,

This is what someone posted in another thread.

"(PS. Likewise: To hell with all you self absorbed whiners. You who complain endlessly without trying to help yourselves, without any thought or regard for anyone else. You dominate the discussions with your endless, mindless complaints of a pea under the 17^th mattress down. )"

Of course, you already read this because you responded with this :

"Mike great to hear.
+5"

Now, I think you were responding to the fact that Mike is happy with X1, but, you seem to be able to ignore his very nasty and less than understanding remark at the end of his opening post.

Here's the thread
 

I don't mind reading bug rantings, I've done it and will probably rant like a stupid jerk again.

But, God, all of the speculation and talking in circles about Cakewalk's Business/Dev/QA processes is worthless chatter.
We won't ever know about any of it, and to talk in circles further about how to fix things is equally worthless. 
Pulling an admin into a thread to suggest how Cakewalk should run is not helping - it's in the way of letting them work. 

And for the Love of Christ, Developers are NOT {cuss} BAKERS!

LOL.  

I do hope everyone gets their X1's working. I'm doing OK with it all so far for how I work. The past was different for me, but that's the past for now :) 

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Susan G

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Sorry guys, but we aren't currently able to give any information on future updates. We'll let you know as soon as we have something concrete to offer.

Hi Brandon-

Can you say if there will be an X1 demo?

Thanks-

-Susan

Hi Susan,

It is my understanding that we are still planning on having a demo, but it has obviously taken longer than we had hoped. Let me check on the latest information and I'll post back.

Hi Brandon-

Just wondering if you've found out anything yet.

Thanks-

-Susan

Thanks, subtlearts. That would be better than nothing if I can find it around here.

Also popping this thread 'cuz Brandon's nearby!:)

-Susan

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Susan G


Thanks, subtlearts. That would be better than nothing if I can find it around here.

Also popping this thread 'cuz Brandon's nearby!:)

-Susan

It's still firmly in the plan, but i wouldn't expect anything for at least a month (but hopefully not much longer than that if indeed that long). I wish I had news that it will be sooner, but I'd prefer to "keep it real".

Ok. Not great news, but thanks anyway :-).

-Susan