jramler
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Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
Hello,
Can anyone help me with my panning dillema? I'm composing an electronic tune and I want to set pan values to the individual notes in the Piano Roll View. You can set the velocity when double clicking on a note, but no pan options. I'm running Sonar x1d and using strictly stock soft synths. I'm currently using PSYN 2. I've also tried setting the pan values using the MIDI controllers, but when you click to add a new controller, you have the option of NRPN, RPN's and just different channel numbers. What would you select if you wanted to control the pan on the soft synth, or don't some soft synths allow this kind of control. Also, I don't know if this is a glitch with Sonar x1 or not, but I've noticed that there are no handles to adjust the velocity controller in the MIDI controller pane. You can use the drawing tool to redraw velocity values, but I would think there should be handles to adjust each not more easily. Just an aside, if anyone else has noticed this.
I forgot to mention, that I have controlled the pan using automation and drawing a pan line on the track. This process is a bit tedious for what I want. I want tighter controll over each note and an easy way of doing that. Maybe it's not possible with the soft synths or how I'm going about it.
Thanks for any help!
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Linear Phase
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/07/31 17:47:04
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Hi jramler, are you coming from trackers? per note panning.. i haven't seen it in standard daws... if you are coming from trackers you can try rewire, or revisit which is a tracker vst... http://revisit.info/ I don't think the velocity curves are bug.. I'm not 100% happy with the design... if you are about to go rewire, and want to load the dx plugin into your slave... maybe a solution here http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/printview.php?t=177538&start=0
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perfectprint
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/07/31 17:47:27
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pan envelope on the audio track. not too difficult if you set snap values correctly and take advantage of highlighting sections from the bottom portion of the track and dragging up and down from the top portion (using the smart tool). There is a Cake video all about envelopes.
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mattplaysguitar
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/07/31 19:23:51
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MIDI data doesn't contain pan information. Automating the pan envelope generally won't work either because the tails of some notes will be panned too. So as far as I am aware, you can NOT do what you want, exactly. But:
Your best option is to make multiple MIDI tracks. If you're only going to be using say three pans, maybe a left, middle and right pan to create an interesting feel, clone your finished midi instrument track to make three copies. Pan each one where required. Then delete the appropriate notes from each MIDI clip to create the desired effect (or create each MIDI track from scratch. This will give you maximum flexibility in your end result. You can then tweak each synth parameter slightly for more variation and interest, if you wish.
MIDI notes do have handles. They can just be a little tricky somtimes to get. Top right hand corner of the MIDI note I think and it turns to the velocity handle.
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Crg
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/07/31 19:55:56
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Use two keyboards, pan one to the left, one to the right on the destination tracks. Or, select all the notes you want to pan left, copy them and paste them in a new track or Layer panned left. Delete them from the original track. Or, work that pan knob real fast!< --just kidding. Setting it up to that automatically is just as intensive as editing it afterward.
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John
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/07/31 20:24:25
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The OP may wish to try CC 8 "Balance" or CC 10 "Pan".
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/01 03:43:19
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Or, work that pan knob real fast!< --just kidding Now that takes me back a number of years, when it was the only option. Great days.
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tacman7
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/01 10:51:47
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The midi event cc10 would pan the synth left or right, that's your choice, just like using audio envelopes.
It can do it pretty quick if you wanted to embed the events between the notes and having them jump back and forth but you can also do that with envelopes because they're fast too.
If you look at a program like ez or addictive drums, the set is panned each instrument (which is pitches) so they're not all in the same place.
That's done with the synths audio engine though, I don't think those provisions are in a normal synth.
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jramler
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/01 11:42:23
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Thanks for all the input guys! Thanks for the tip on using automation envelopes, perfectprint. That little trick of highlighting sections and dragging in the upper part of the track is pretty slick. I missed that tutorial. Thanks also, mattplaysguitar. You're right about the automation envelope being a problem with individual MIDI notes. The overlapping tails of each note would get panned into the next note. I never thought of that. I like the idea of creating separate tracks. That maybe the best option. I have tried using CC 10 in the MIDI controller pane to control the soft synths pan, but it didn't seem to work. It may work for an actual hardware synth, but I'm not sure that the soft synths, or the one I'm currently using, recognizes this controller.
Thanks again for all your input!
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MarioD
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/01 13:59:18
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I can’t say about your softsynth but I will say I can use CC10 on all of the softsynths that I have, and I have many!
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SToons
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/02 05:09:22
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jramler
Hello,
Can anyone help me with my panning dillema? I'm composing an electronic tune and I want to set pan values to the individual notes in the Piano Roll View. You can set the velocity when double clicking on a note, but no pan options. I'm running Sonar x1d and using strictly stock soft synths. I'm currently using PSYN 2. I've also tried setting the pan values using the MIDI controllers, but when you click to add a new controller, you have the option of NRPN, RPN's and just different channel numbers. What would you select if you wanted to control the pan on the soft synth, or don't some soft synths allow this kind of control.
Are you looking for hard left and right panning or are you looking to spread notes entirely thru the stereo field in many different positions? The only "practical" solution to pan individual notes thruout the stereo field is to use a synth with more control over the modulation matrix. For example, you can then assign a CC, LFO or something to "modulate" the panning. Ideally, you want to use a synth that allows you to modulate the panning of an individual oscillator (or multiple oscillators). This way only the note changes in the stereo field: the tails will not pan and neither will any effects such as delay or reverb. I have a hunch this is what you really want. Of the stock synths the best two candidates are Rapture and Z3ta as they have the most thorough modulation matrices. At the moment I can't give you specifics (I'd have to read the manuals) but if you have trouble figuring out how to make them work as you want let me know and I'll take a peek. The benefit here is the crazy amount of options you then have at your disposal. As an example, one trick I like is to "modulate" the panning of each note thru velocity...then I do no real work, the velocity of a note positions it in the stereo field (especially useful for steady rhythms that you can have randomly plopping around in the stereo field). If you want to manually adjust pan position you simply draw in the velocity value, right-click and enter in PRV, drag handles, whatever floats your boat. In many cases analog synth sounds do not need to respond to velocity as the volume stays fixed so you just use the velocity to control pan position instead of note volume. That's just one of numerous examples i could give. The trick is to learn how to use modulation matrices. The next question you have to think about is if you want to manually control the panning of each note (somewhat tedious, depends on the length) using CC's or an envelope etc. or have it done "automatically" for you by using an LFO, velocity or some form of randomization. I'm a big fan of the randomization route but it's all personal taste. Rapture will, by the looks of it, allow you to literally step-sequence the panning if desired, among many other options. Z3ta has many options for routing modulation as well.
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lowdown
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/02 05:40:08
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Cubase 6x and it's use of expression maps is great for this.
You can change parameters/articulations on Individual notes, panning etc.
Of course not all synth's can be used at the moment, but Cubase has two or three
within that can do it. Retrologue and Halion for eg.
It's a pretty neat tool.
One of the advantages of VST 3X.
Garry
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Kev999
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/02 06:17:24
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jramler
I want to set pan values to the individual notes in the Piano Roll View.
Using Dimension Pro, you could load the same sampleset into all 4 elements, pan each element differently and set it to multi-timbral mode. Then set midi channel 1, 2, 3 or 4 for each note depending on which pan setting you want for that note. This method allows 2 or more notes to play simulaneously from different directions rather than the entire instrument changing direction at once.
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lowdown
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/02 06:39:42
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Using Dimension Pro, you could load the same sampleset into all 4 elements, pan each element differently and set it to multi-timbral mode. Then set midi channel 1, 2, 3 or 4 for each note depending on which pan setting you want for that note. This method allows 2 or more notes to play simulaneously from different directions rather than the entire instrument changing direction at once.
That's a great tip - Thanks for that !
Garry
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SToons
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/02 10:27:03
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For what it's worth I just tried out Rapture. Not only can you step sequence each individual note of a sequence but you can place each and every note in any pan position you like, not just left, right or center. Insanely fast and easy. Not to mention you can load any wav file as an oscillator so you can even use the wavetables from other synths or create your own. In theory you could output audio from one synth, load it into Rapture and step-sequence the panning from there.
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stevec
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/02 12:07:39
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Geez... I really need to learn how to better use Rapture and Dim Pro. Great info!
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Kev999
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/02 20:03:58
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Using Dimension Pro, you could load the same sampleset into all 4 elements, pan each element differently and set it to multi-timbral mode. Then set midi channel 1, 2, 3 or 4 for each note depending on which pan setting you want for that note. This method allows 2 or more notes to play simultaneously from different directions rather than the entire instrument changing direction at once.
By the way, you can also do this in Rapture, which has the additional benefit of 6 elements rather than 4. I am not certain whether Rapture LE has multi-timbral mode though.
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Kev999
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/02 20:39:22
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SToons
For what it's worth I just tried out Rapture. Not only can you step sequence each individual note of a sequence but you can place each and every note in any pan position you like, not just left, right or center.
Do you mean using the Step Sequencer to pan each step of the sequence? Or maybe pan according to pitch? Or is there another technique that I have not thought of?
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SToons
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/02 22:03:41
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Kev999
SToons
For what it's worth I just tried out Rapture. Not only can you step sequence each individual note of a sequence but you can place each and every note in any pan position you like, not just left, right or center.
Do you mean using the Step Sequencer to pan each step of the sequence? Or maybe pan according to pitch? Or is there another technique that I have not thought of?
To be clear, this is Rapture LE not the full version. In the Modulation Matrix ("Modulators"), just click the Pan button. In this display you can Step Sequence the Pan which has no effect on the Step Sequenced Pitch (notes). You can also step seq the Cutoff and Resonance. If you step seq 32 eighth notes, for example, you can subsequently go to Pan and set it for 32 steps of eighth notes and sequence the pan position of each note only without affecting the notes entered in the Pitch window. All of this can be done inside Rapture itself, this does not refer in any way to the Step Sequencer that is part of Sonar. You could set a modulator to pan according to pitch, velocity, CC - there are many options, but I do not believe those can be internally step sequenced inside Rapture.
post edited by SToons - 2012/08/02 22:12:31
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SToons
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/02 22:07:07
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jramler
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/03 11:38:05
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Thanks for the info. I am stubbornly committed to working through and creating a song using each synth in Sonar starting with the simplest and working up to Z3ta. It's good to know that the more advanced synths have the option I'm looking for.
SToons
For what it's worth I just tried out Rapture. Not only can you step sequence each individual note of a sequence but you can place each and every note in any pan position you like, not just left, right or center. Insanely fast and easy. Not to mention you can load any wav file as an oscillator so you can even use the wavetables from other synths or create your own. In theory you could output audio from one synth, load it into Rapture and step-sequence the panning from there.
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Gusfmm
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/03 11:58:37
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Kev999
Using Dimension Pro, you could load the same sampleset into all 4 elements, pan each element differently and set it to multi-timbral mode. Then set midi channel 1, 2, 3 or 4 for each note depending on which pan setting you want for that note. This method allows 2 or more notes to play simultaneously from different directions rather than the entire instrument changing direction at once. By the way, you can also do this in Rapture, which has the additional benefit of 6 elements rather than 4. I am not certain whether Rapture LE has multi-timbral mode though.
Wouldn't this be similar to using two MIDI tracks panned hard L/R? Why would you need DimPro and all the set-up on the MIDI channels? In other words, setting up two separate MIDI channels would be no more hassle than that, I think. BTW, VST3 would probably be the easiest way.. just missing in action on the CW camp.... (sigh)
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tacman7
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/03 12:01:12
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I think you're still controlling the overall synths output right?
Or
If you played a chord the root would be on the left, third in the middle and fifth on the right? (if you had those notes set up that way)
So the same thing could be done with automation...
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SToons
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/03 14:52:09
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Gusfmm
Kev999
Using Dimension Pro, you could load the same sampleset into all 4 elements, pan each element differently and set it to multi-timbral mode. Then set midi channel 1, 2, 3 or 4 for each note depending on which pan setting you want for that note. This method allows 2 or more notes to play simultaneously from different directions rather than the entire instrument changing direction at once. By the way, you can also do this in Rapture, which has the additional benefit of 6 elements rather than 4. I am not certain whether Rapture LE has multi-timbral mode though.
Wouldn't this be similar to using two MIDI tracks panned hard L/R? Why would you need DimPro and all the set-up on the MIDI channels? In other words, setting up two separate MIDI channels would be no more hassle than that, I think.
BTW, VST3 would probably be the easiest way.. just missing in action on the CW camp.... (sigh)
VST3 would in no way make it easier than how I described the method in Rapture...either way you have to adjust the panning for each note, no more no less.
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b rock
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/03 18:17:50
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Here's a little Rapture nugget (from memory):
- Navigate to a Pan LFO.
- Click to Random Unipolar or Random Bipolar in the waveform display.
- Set the Freq to 0.00 (*not* Sync).
- Dial up a high Depth value, to start.
- Every subsequent Note On generates another random pan position.
Remember that every modulator in Rapture ADDS to it's current base value (except Bipolar entries, by nature). So, if your Element Pan knob at the bottom of the GUI is centered, all of the LFO pan values will be ADDED (to the right) of center. The same goes for internal envelopes & step sequencers in relation to the base cutoff frequency settings, resonance knobs, amplitude, pitch, and panning.
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SToons
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/03 20:20:33
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b rock
Here's a little Rapture nugget (from memory):
- Navigate to a Pan LFO.
- Click to Random Unipolar or Random Bipolar in the waveform display.
- Set the Freq to 0.00 (*not* Sync).
- Dial up a high Depth value, to start.
- Every subsequent Note On generates another random pan position.
Remember that every modulator in Rapture ADDS to it's current base value (except Bipolar entries, by nature). So, if your Element Pan knob at the bottom of the GUI is centered, all of the LFO pan values will be ADDED (to the right) of center. The same goes for internal envelopes & step sequencers in relation to the base cutoff frequency settings, resonance knobs, amplitude, pitch, and panning.
I'll look to see, but I'm not sure you can access the pan LFO's in the LE edition. EDIT: No, as I suspected, this is not possible with the LE edition. Thanks for the explanation - I found that the panning entered in the Mod Matrix wasn't working correctly unless I set the Element 1 Pan fully left. -Now- it makes sense. When I have time I'll have to RTM. This is common practice with freq, cutoff, resonance etc. but this one of the few times I remember seeing a "0" value be hard left or right (perhaps I don't pay enough attention). Makes sense for this application though. For what it's worth, if you right-click in the Pan section of the Modulators you can take anything you've entered and reverse it, flip it upside down, randomize it or import shapes from wave files amongst other things. Want a reverse saw shape? Import a reverse saw wave. These options are available for the amplitude, filter cutoffs, resonance and pitch and can all be quantized so they will work on a note-by-note basis if desired. Extremely flexable synth.
post edited by SToons - 2012/08/04 02:59:02
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synkrotron
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/03 21:23:39
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I've just had a go of this, because I was sure there was a simple way of implementing panning per note in Sonar, simply, as has been mentioned here, by sending a CC10 message prior to the note being sent.
It didn't seem to work like I expected. And then I remembered that when I used to do this kind of thing, I was driving my JP8000 and Nova, well before the days that I caught on to soft synths. That definitely used to work a treat for panning individual notes, without effecting the tails. Perhaps I should keep hold of my hard synths...
I also had a pay with a panning envelope, just to see... and yeah, it pans the whole track, including the tails... but you knew that already lol.
I think the way I would do this now would be to create as many instances I needed to create my stereo panning effect.
When I get time, I might also try some of the methods explained above. And I should check whether or not Absynth caters for panning... perhaps with one, or all three of its LFOs.
Blimey, I've been away from this too darned long, that's a fact... I've forgotten so much stuff, and I'm struggling to get my head back round all the MIDI stuff I used to do.
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timidi
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/03 22:02:11
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There's probably a way to do this with the event filter, or interpolate with the cc10.
I forget if Pan is even an option. Anyway, the event filter is pretty powerful for that kind of mundane stuff usually.
And, probably use the event list and not the PV.
I'm going to assume that your part is quantized 100%. This would make isolating the notes you are working on a lot easier for data a entry.
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Crg
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/03 22:35:27
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It's a lot of set up or editing either way. I assume the OP wants to just play the notes and have it pan automatically per note. I don't see Mod Matrix doing this or LFO's. The Event list would an edit situation. I don't know of any setting that would pan per incoming event.
I don't know what peice he wants to play, but even two keyboards panned hard lft. and rt. is going to take some skill.
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SToons
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Re:Trying to pan individual MIDI notes
2012/08/04 02:44:14
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Crg
It's a lot of set up or editing either way. I assume the OP wants to just play the notes and have it pan automatically per note. I don't see Mod Matrix doing this or LFO's. The Event list would an edit situation. I don't know of any setting that would pan per incoming event.
I don't know what peice he wants to play, but even two keyboards panned hard lft. and rt. is going to take some skill.
No, not a lot of setup or editing if you use the right tool for the job. Given that the OP is determined to use the PSYNII the only option would be to use multiple synths and split the notes but that's not really that big of a task, just program everuthing in one track and the select the notes you want to move, then cut and paste. Assuming you don't expect to have notes panning in say 32 different stereo positions. If you're prepared to use a more suitable synth I have already tried, tested and posted - yes, this can be done, and quite easily, in the Mod Matrix. Here's how simple: Open Rapture. 1. In Rapture, click the Load Program button and choose Sequences>Blade End Titles 2. In the Mod Matrix ("Modulators") click the Pan button. 3. On the left side under Step, set the following: - Status: On - Steps=16 - Sync=4 4. At the bottom, in the Mixer, set Element 1 Pan all the way to the left. Now in the Pan view of the Modulators section there will be 16 grey bars, one for each note of the sequence. You can click or click and drag any bar to different heights (values). If the bar is at the top it is panned hard right and if the bar is at the bottom (no grey showing) it is panned hard left - setting the bar anywhere else is panned somewhere in between. Click on the Pitch button in the Matrix and you can just as easily alter the notes in a sequence. It's so simple it's not funny. Try it and prove me wrong ;-p Now, in any track create a single note (try a low note) that lasts one or more measures, route the track thru Rapture and Play. Step #3 above is easy to explain: just look how the parameters of the Pitch sequence is set up in "The Matrix" and make the Pan sequence match. Want a longer sequence? Change the steps. Want a different rhythm base? Change the sync. Not only is it simple but it's extremely flexible. I don't know of any setting that would pan per incoming event.
It depends on the synth being used. b rock explained how it could be programmed easily, using external MIDI notes from the track and not using a step sequencer with Rapture so now you -do- know of a setting that would change the Pan for each incoming event. I could name at least a half dozen more methods.
post edited by SToons - 2012/08/04 07:03:28
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