UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING.

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rhymestars
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2010/04/27 13:20:26 (permalink)

UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING.

This thread is designed to share unconventional methods of vocal processing. I have had an overwhelming request to share techniques i have learned in regards to vocals. Please keep in mind that the methods i will share are used by some industry producers in certain mixing situations for certain artist. DISCLAIMER: I am not claiming this to be the CORRECT WAY TO MIX VOCALS.  Please keep in mind that these techniques are designed for modern POP, R and B, and hiphop.  I do not want this thread to turn into a debate.  Lets share what works and build upon each others post.
  Please listen to the first track on at www.myspace.com/feedbackproductions  for a example of how this technique sounds.The first track was recorded in this exact fashion. while the last song on the player was not. You can hear the difference in clarity
 
First thing ,IN MY OPINION, that you should know before mixing vocals is your equipment used to capture a voice.
If you have a question or would like incite on how to apply what i am saying to your set up. Please post what your vocal chain is before you ask your question.  There is some many combinations of gear. All of which will produce completely different vocals and tonal qualities.
Common project vocal chains should be similar to:
MICROPHONE - QUALITY CABLES - PRE AMP - INTERFACE - COMPUTER
MICROPHONE - QUALITY CABLES - PRE AMP - COMPRESSOR - INTERFACE - COMPUTER
In that order
Of course this is not the only way you can set up a vocal chain. I understand that some may use mix boards and other out board gear.  I will try to keep it simple for those who are recording in a less the desirable set up.
It is important to connect all of your gear with quality MOGAMI cables.(My preference in cable)
 
 
Also keep in mind that the best way to achieve a solid vocal always sits in the performance of the artist, Mic placement and recording enviornment.
 
The first thing i noticed when working with Industry producers and engineers were UN CONVENTIONAL METHODS.
 
In forums you always read about people claiming that when you compress vocals you do not want to use a ratio higher than 4:1 and a thresh of*** while others claim that eq is the answer. I believe it is different for every person, every voice, every track, and there is no set way to achieve this. Hopefully my methods will allow you to develop different ways of approaching a vocal in attempts to achieve the strongest signal possible.
 
Here is a shortened process of what i go through in the recording phase.
 
Hip hop and R and B vocals require a good recording enviornment.  For those that do not have a treated room or wide open space Move your mic to the center of the room. Away from walls and hard surfaces.
1. Position your mic to face the artist with the mic even to the artist mouth.
2. Teach your artist: No matter how good they think they are they need to be directed. Have the artist do multiple warm ups while practicing keeping a distance of around 6 inches from the mic. Of course they will not be able to maintain this distance perfectly but the idea is to make them away of this. I Found that 6 inches gives your project gear a better chance of picking up more signal and less noise from the room.
3. Cover your pc. Unless you have a ultra quiet liquid cooled processor you will need to remove as much of that sound as possible. Keep in mind this is risky because you can over heat your pc if you block air flow. But be creative. Put your head phones on and turn up the volume so you can hear all of the room noise. Including your pc. Move your mic around the room and find a spot that has the least bit of room noise.
4.Use multiple vocal warm ups as a way to set your pre amp and gear to that individual artist. Your goal is to achieve the loudest signal possible with out peaking your meter. I personally shoot for 0db. Now of course with rap and r and b your artist may have a burst of volume or punch with causes your meter to light red in sonar. Use better judgment on this. Listen to the take and pay attention for distortion. If there is non audible then disregard the red meter. If you hear distortion the make small adjustments to prevent this. I try to keep a 2 to 3 db of difference between the loudest and softest parts of a take.
For example: If your artist does a warm up and the loudest part of his recording hits -1db and his lowest part hits -8 you will later be misled in the mix when you begin to compress. Unless of course you have quality gear like a distressor or other high end compressors. In that case you would be including those units in your vocal chain and would not have such a difference in the first place.
  if you have dsp processing through an interface or an out board compressor you need to use those units to achieve the maximum signal while recording. We will touch on that in a minute.
5. Have your artist practice vocal control. Keep in mind that no one is perfect. You are only trying to keep the artist aware of how he is using his vocal. Make him do warm up after warm up until he or she can keep a consistent vocal with out un wanted punchy punch lines or burst of energy. While the artist is doing these warm ups you should be adjusting your gear. For those who have no out board compressor you should be adjusting the gain on your pre amp. to achieve near a 0db input. Keep in mind that if an artist does get low on a part of the take or can not over come a troubled section of a verse or hook you can always remedy this later with separate take or good compression. So don't get discouraged if the artist is a knuckle head. WORK WITH IT. Keep a creative mind set.
 
 
The following will be completely based on the dynamics of the project.
Ideally you will want to have a project tracked out. Meaning you will want to have everything in the instrumental or track on its own track. You will need the kick on a separate track from the snare and the high hats separate from the bongos and so on. If you do not have this option because you have purchased an instrumental with non exclusive rights and do not have the session files you will never achieve a PRO mix. You can achieve a great mix but it will never reach its potential. There are techniques that you can practice to optimize this situation. PM ME IF THIS APPLIES TO YOU AND I WILL SHARE.
 
Compression settings for out board vocal chain gear
Ideally you will want to achieve around 4 db of compression. In some cases for artist like 50 cent. you may need to achieve any where from 4 to 7 db of compression. This may go against everything you have been taught. I will post production logs later from producers like DR DRE to solidify my advice.
 For rap. I usually set the outboard compressor to these settings (KEEP IN MIND THAT YOU WILL NOT ACHIEVE A GOLDEN SOUND BY COPYING THESE SETTINGS. YOU WILL NEED TO MAKE SMALL ADJUSTMENTS ACCORDING TO YOUR GEAR. REMEMBER THAT THE OBJECTIVE IS TO ACHIEVE AROUND 4 DB OF COMPRESSION)
THRESHOLD : I keep around 0 db. sometimes i adjust it to -2 or -1db depending on the artist  and what i need to do to prevent the vocal from peaking in warm ups.
RATIO:  I set to around 7:1........   WOW.  I bet some of you are like wtf.  My theory, which i adopted from good producers, is by setting a thresh hold of 0 db and a high ratio you are allowing almost all of the vocal to be un affected by compression. The compressor will only do its job when a vocal has exceeded a 0db mark preventing the distortion or peaks you do not want. With a dsp or outboard compressor i tend to not attempt to over smooth the vocal in the recording process. I just want to get all of the signal. By setting your pre amp gain to achieve around a 0db input into your daw you are capturing a loud full vocal. These compressor setting will tame such a hot vocal.
Also keep in mind that if your transients are being cut off at 0db. You may need to adjust your pre amp down
ATTACK: set a medium attack  Not too fast and not to slow this will prevent the compression from being noticeable. You will need to do multiple takes if using an outboard compressor adjusting the attack for each take until you get your desirable setting. There is not one setting that just works. Every artist will require a different setting. So what works well for you may not work well for the next the guy you have on the second verse.
RELEASE I set a fast release.  Most of the time it is around 80 to 120 ms after all. You are only taming the vocal that exceeds your thresh. The parts of the vocal that exceed your thresh usually are spikes in db level and not long drawn out spikes. In most cases the vocal may only exceed the thresh for a word or two in the take. A fast release unsure that the compressor is only taming those words and not other words that may not need to be tamed.
 
Now of course for those who do not have outboard compressors you can apply this theory in plug ins. In which case you would disregard a peak in a vocal take that may light up your peak meter one or two times in a take. Just because your peak meter lights up on a word or two does not mean the take is bad. As long as the spike in volume is not causing noticeable distortion.
 
Also: for artist that are loud and have little control. You may need to adjust your thresh hold to better tame the vocal. I find that when i set a lower threshold i will also need to set a lower ratio. For out board compressors. You will need to do multiple takes until you achieve a some what consistent level of around 4 db of compression. Eventually this will become second nature to you. If you find that the vocal is not consistent when it hits the compressor you will need to have the artist re record the take until you have a desirable outcome. In a lot of cases it is not the gears fault. It is the artist who can make your job at mixing his vocals productive.
 
I do not set any EQ IN THE VOCAL CHAIN.  What i mean is: Some pre amps have an eq function. I by pass all eq in the recording process.  I process all eq with plug ins after the recording is desirable for mixing. Depending on your mic you may need to set a 80hz high pass filter.  I tend to use the 80hz high pass filter on the mic and not the pre amp. EVEN THOUGH THIS MAY NOT REMOVE AS MUCH LOW END AS YOU NEED, ITS BETTER TO BE ABLE TO REMOVE IT WITH PLUG INS LATER RATHER THAN ATTEMPT TO REGAIN ANY LOST LOW END THAT A QUALITY PRE AMP MAY HAVE COMPLETELY REMOVED.
 
Once the recording process is complete i set up a number of plug ins and busses to begin mixing the vocals.
I always apply plug ins to the lead track. I usually only buss out effects like reverb or flange or delays on a lead vocal.
 
For over dubs or multiple takes(STACKS) I DO NOT PROCESS PLUG INS ON THE ACTUAL TRACK.
For example: If i have a lead vocal. (Rap) and 4 tracks of stacks that double the lead is certain areas. I will buss all of the stacks to a "STACKS" BUSS WITH THE BOTTOM OUTPUT SEND.  I send 100percent of those signals to the stacks buss.  This is what works for me. Some people assign a send pre fader. I personally do not feel this gives me total control over the stack. But you may develop a method that you like. So try everything until you find what works best for that take.   This allows me to control a bunch of overdubs that may have a wide range of dynamics. I apply additional compression and eq and so fourth to the buss track and not the track they were recorded on.
For the lead vocal i usually have a series of plugs like this.
Gate--compressor--eq--deesser--eq.    This is not my go to order.  What i do is listen to the vocal and identify problem areas. I start with the most apparent problem and fix it. So sometimes, depending on the take, I might use an order of
GATE--EQ--COMPRESSOR--DESSER or GATE--DEESER-COMPRESSOR--EQ.
 
EQ'ING VOCALS
This is not as complicated as you have all been lead to believe.
I have noticed with rap that a vocal has strong frequencies around 180hz to 212hz.   424hz to 600hz and depending on the artist you may see dominate frequencies around 1k. This is also depending on your mic.
My focus in eq is to remove areas of the spectrum that mask these areas and to tame those areas if they are out of control.
LESS IS ALWAYS BETTER AND REMEMBER THAT YOU WILL DO ALL DEDUCTIONS AND SMALL INCREASES OF FREQUENCIES.
For my vocal I usually have setting around:
80hz highpass filter. Depending on the instruments in the track i may cut back to 90hz or 100hz. A common rule of thumb is the more instruments you have in the track the more you may need to cut back with a high pass filter. In hiphop and pop music the use of synth sounds tend to dominate alot of the spectrum Cutting a vocal higher in the spectrum can allow more space for everything to co-exist.
I run the vocal solo through a paz analyzer to see exactly where the vocal is dominate. I then run the instrumental through the paz to see where it is dominate.
In rap i tend to deduct frequencies from instruments that occupy the  same area as the vocal. When using eq you cut with a narrow q and boost with a wide q.
After the 80hz cut i usually do a small deduction around 212hz.  actually read the paz analyzer to see where the bottom of the vocal is. Mine just happens to be around 200.  The mud in most vocals sits around 220 to 320.  I usually only cut by one or 2 db in this area.  Depending on your mic  you may need to deduct a little more but be careful not to thin the vocal out too much. Removing too many frequencies in that muddy area can affect the needed frequencies that may sit around it. 
I notice my vocal has small peaks around 420 and 510hz. I usually deduct 2 to 3 db from that area to make sure those frequencies are not masking other areas. My goal is to get a even response.
Sometimes i deduct 3 to 4 db from the 2 k area depending on the track instrumental and what i hear in the vocal.
 
You may notice at this time a large amount of ESS   Just load up a desser and sit that vocal back in the mix.
After i have deducted from those areas and loaded a desser the vocal sounds a little dull. I set my desser to around 3 or 4 k for my vocal and lower the thresh to around -30db or more depending on what is needed. If ESS Sounds are not disturbing or over powering then do not use a desser.  There is not need to fix something that is not a problem.
But if you need to use it(In most cases with rap you will) You may need to load another eq after the desser in the fx bay. I only use this eq to boost high frequencies after the desser has removed so much. Usually around 10khz to brighten up the sound. I boost around 2 to 3 db.
 
Most of eqing vocals is removing areas.  I never cut over 4 db unless it is a desired effect or needed because the gear you have is less than desirable. So to recap. I high pass at around 80, cut about 2db out of the 212 area, cut about 2 to 3 db out of the 500hz area, Tame the mids(Depending on mic) around 2k with a deduction.  Deess the vocal. and the brighten it with an addition eq by boosting around 10k
Now take all of this with a grain of salt.  If you mirror my setting you will get the same result so play around with it and use tools like the paz analyzer to identify areas of the vocal that need to be removed or deducted.
Also know that if you do not have a great mix on the instruments in the track you will never have a rich vocal. Removing substantive amounts of the 500hz and 200hz range in synths will create needed room for the vocal to shine.
 
 
There is so much more that goes into it so let the discussion begin and i will be open to discuss more behind what i do.
Also if you would like me to email you a song that i have used this method on pm me your email so you can hear the end result. It may just blow your mind.
 
post edited by rhymestars - 2010/04/27 15:08:44
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 13:46:38 (permalink)
    Well, I have to say, there's a wealth of information in your post Rhymestars - even though I don't do Hip-Hop I feel some of that might be quite useful.

    Thanks!



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    No How
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 14:03:09 (permalink)
    Looks like a lot of info i can experiment with.  Great.

    I've been having a hard time with deessers as they remove way too much (and you stated you then add more eq if so)...i have been just using envelopes to dip the abrasive 'sssss' out and this way retain all the highs...(Yes, PITA but i think worth it).

    Thanks.

    s o n g s

      – Beauty lodged in a bad hotel has no value.  Raymond Lull
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    rhymestars
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 14:58:23 (permalink)
    No How


    Looks like a lot of info i can experiment with.  Great.

    I've been having a hard time with deessers as they remove way too much (and you stated you then add more eq if so)...i have been just using envelopes to dip the abrasive 'sssss' out and this way retain all the highs...(Yes, PITA but i think worth it).

    Thanks.

    Thats works as well my friend.  I do not have the patients to draw envelopes for every ess.
    Other ways include running a low pass filter at around 18k.  Remember on your master buss you should have a broadband eq of some sort that has a steap drop around 16k. Its like a low pass filter only instead of the drop off resembling a gradual slope it is a strait line down.  Doing this on your master buss will remove frequencies past the human ability to hear at around 16k.  That combined with a deesser can provide useful.
    Dessers are weird. Most people tend to think they strip every good part of a vocal if pushed too much. I tend to believe it sits the vocal back in the mix.
    Most of the times i set my de esser to Split and not wideband. although i have heard great wideband techniques. I prefer split.  I set the frequency around3k to 5k and the side chain to high pass. depending on the artist i have dropped the thresh as low as-45 db but usually end up around -20 to -30.  With a deesser  the slightest nudge in threshhold can make a world of difference. Also try turning off all of the plugs in your master buss and just turning up the volume on your interface. sometimes plugs like the l2 or boost 11 can make things seem worse then they are if you are mixing with them active.
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    rhymestars
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 14:59:49 (permalink)
    I have used the same theory in mixing acoustic folk and rock music depending on the vocal style. Even though your setting may be drastic. The idea behind the theory can easily be converted to any style of musc.  Thanks for reading
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    rhymestars
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 15:05:57 (permalink)
    Please check out    www.myspace.com/feedbackproductions    If you compare the first and last track on the player you will see the difference in this method of recording and how i used to mix. Shes dope shes fly was recorded before i gained this knowledge. The way i lay it down was recorded in this exact fashion.  You can hear the difference
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    skullsession
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 15:07:27 (permalink)
    Generally speaking, I find that if I have to use a de-esser, I've screwed something up prior to that.

    As far as EQ...typically, I use a HPF on a lead vocal....and that's about it.

    Occasionally I'll have to pull out a smidge of mid...and occasionally I'll have to boost in the 10k+ area to get a little air.

    But I find that if I'm carving the hell out of my lead vocal to get it to sit in a mix, I've used the wrong mic.  For me, good compression and the right mic tends to just make it happen naturally.

    HOOK:  Skullsessions.com  / Darwins God Album

    "Without a doubt I would have far greater listening and aural skills than most of the forum members here. Not all but many I am sure....I have done more listening than most people." - Jeff Evans on how awesome Jeff Evans is.
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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 15:19:31 (permalink)
    3k-4k... that's not yer granma's ess.

    Is possible for you to number the rules so it is easier to keep track?

    I wanna know exactly when to check for stuff like this:

    "I have noticed with rap that a vocal has strong frequencies around 180hz to 212hz.   424hz to 600hz and depending on the artist you may see dominate frequencies around 1k."






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    rhymestars
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 15:22:56 (permalink)
    skullsession


    Generally speaking, I find that if I have to use a de-esser, I've screwed something up prior to that.

    As far as EQ...typically, I use a HPF on a lead vocal....and that's about it.

    Occasionally I'll have to pull out a smidge of mid...and occasionally I'll have to boost in the 10k+ area to get a little air.

    But I find that if I'm carving the hell out of my lead vocal to get it to sit in a mix, I've used the wrong mic.  For me, good compression and the right mic tends to just make it happen naturally.

    This is exactly what i was pointing at. Very little eq. Small deductions. and yes. A high pass filter can do trick. I often switch between that and a deesser depending on the lead vocal and project. But you are right.  If you are finding that you are needing to carve scoops out with the eq you have done something wrong and may need to re record with better mic placement or work your compressor in a different fashion.
     
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    rhymestars
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 15:30:58 (permalink)
    mike_mccue


    3k-4k... that's not yer granma's ess.

    Is possible for you to number the rules so it is easier to keep track?

    I wanna know exactly when to check for stuff like this:

    "I have noticed with rap that a vocal has strong frequencies around 180hz to 212hz.   424hz to 600hz and depending on the artist you may see dominate frequencies around 1k."

     
    I do apoligize for the spew of information. It was so much to type that i got lazy. I will attempt to go back and number steps.
     
     
    To answer your question. I check the paz analyzer for those vocal points as soon as my compression is achieved. Of course you may make adjustments later as needed but you can check to see where the vocal sits before you eq. That way you knowwhere the vocal is sitting in the spectrum.  The spectrum will show you where the vocal frequencies are dominate. That does not mean you have to reduce those areas to level out the read. Instead it is kind of an idea of where the vocal is strong. You may need to slightly tame those areas with small deductions and narrow q's its more for comparing where the vocal is opposed to where the instruments are. I will always eq an instrument to create a better vocal space before i eq a vocal to sit int he mix

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    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 15:51:27 (permalink)
    "I will always eq an instrument to create a better vocal space before i eq a vocal to sit int he mix"

    That's what some of us call the C Jay South Beach System.

    Cool!


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    ba_midi
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 16:15:15 (permalink)
    While I do think that giving people 'general' approaches to recording - whether it be vocals or anything else, I also don't think any one thing can be adhered to easily.
     
    Rather than thinking about "rules" (which I know you're not), I like the concept of "guidelines" (which your post generally is).
     
    For example - to say that it's good to EQ "vocals" in a certain way, that statement would fall short because Male and Female voices have different tonality and harmonic content -- not unlike different instruments do.
     
    However, you seem to imply that the items you covered and the approach used is "Unconventional."   I beg to differ, Ricky.   Much of what you outlined is actual well used techniques by various producers/mixers.
     
    I've never been one to have these arbitrary rules about how much (or how little) compression one should use.   Yes - there are "guidelines" to work within, but when one approaches things as some purists do or as if there really are rules, I think it's easy to lose sight of "variation."
     
    So, like you - I'm all for stretching and bending when it comes to EQ and Compression. 
     
    As I say, I tend to approach all techniques as guidelines.
    So -- yes, your post contains worthwhile information.  And at the same time I find it not unconventional at all.
    Many conventions have been broken with the advent of modern day DAW recording techniques.
     
    I think it's a good thread and as always, useful information is useful.
     
    At some point, one must ask:  When does an "unconventional" approach become "conventional" ;)
     
    I also would add that a lot of the so-called "hits" that I listen (and study) sound poorly recorded, yet they are successful.   A lot of that has to do with the packaging (video/music/performance), though.
     
    Just today I was 'studying' some hip hop and pop hits.  I'm actually less than impressed with a lot of the recordings.  Some stand out, yes -- but many sound like amateur's work which was then sent to a professional mastering house.   It's amazing what a great mastering engineer can do ;)
     
    But the underlying tracks, when studied closely, are definitely poor recordings.  (Some, not all of course).
     
    That adds to the point of "guidelines".  There really can be no rules.   Sure, one can say "don't over emphasize the bottom frequency range to much or you're blow out the subs" -- and one could say that's a "rule".  But details matter.  
     
    I listen to some recordings that have an abundance of low frequency buildup way down in the 30Hz range -- but knowing that most people are listening on iPODS, they'll never even hear that stuff.
     
    So, getting back to vocals.   It's interesting that you point out keeping the vocalist basically right in front of the Mic, just a few inches.   That works with certain types of mics, and as you mention, requires the performer to have basic good mic technique.
     
    Another technique that works just as well - and I used often when doing a lot of jingle work years ago -- is to have the Mic position like a boom.   IOW, "above" the singer(s).  This also requires a good recording environment (quiet, no walls to bounce off, etc) and good compression technique (and gain-staging of course).
     
    So, in closing, I'll just say -- good thread.  Good info.  But like everything else, I suggest we don't try to make things written in stone, no matter how unconventional we may think they are.
     
    There really are many ways to skin the cat in recording.  Some better than others, of course.
     
     

    Billy Arnell (ba-midi)

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    #12
    CJaysMusic
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 16:32:19 (permalink)

    C Jay South Beach System.
     
    LOL
    CJ 
     
    All that info the poster posted is common knowledge and most isnt true cause there are no right or wrong settings for vocals or any other instrument. Ill post some things that are true and fact...
    Im going to get some taco's now. anyone want any? Mike??? 

    Ive been working on my web site and its not this vocal section isnt finished yet, but ill post what i have done so far as in regards to getting a better vocal take..
     
    Here it goes.....
     
    Wouldn't it suck if you or anyone else belted out that premo vocal track, only to discover upon playback that there was some issues that screwed it up. Lets not let that happen again.
        1. You need to determine what the best sounding singal path is for that sepcific vocalist.
    • This is the most time consuming overly reputitious task. But in the end, when you find the right gear that fits your vocalist, your pay off will be golden.
        2. Mic placement is an importantant in getting that great vocal sound.
    • There are two issue to consider. The position of the mic in the room. You need to find the the best part of the room to reocrd in. Not all corners, spaces and walls sound alike. This needs to be done way before the vocalist enters the room/studio by trial and error.
    • The other issue is position of the mic, to the singer. There are 2 factors to consider that effect the sound. One is the angle of the mic, to the singer and the other is the space between the mic and the singer. both are very important factors.
    • The Proximity Effect - The closer the singer is to the mic, the more bass frequncies are enhanced. This can be used as a tool, by having the singer move closer or farther away friom the mic, depending on the mood of the vocal passage.
    • The mic of choice for most singers is a cardioid condensor mic and a good starting point for this mic is about six to eight inches away form the mic capsule. If the voicce sounds to thin, then you move the singer up a bit to use the proximity effect. Be carefull, moving only an inch or so will increase the bass and fullness allot. If the sound is too big, then move the singer back a bit. Its a balancing act.
    • If your using an omnidirectional mic or an omnidirectional pattern setting, there will be no proximity effect. so moving the singer back and forth will only create distance and the bass frequencies will not be enhanced as the singer moves toward the mic.
    • The omni patternis is a good mic to use if the singer cannot stay still and/or is inexperienced in vocal recording. but this mic has its fallbacks, since it picks up all directions equally. you need a very quiet room to use this mic.
    • The effects of a condensor mic on axis and off axis with the singers mouth are very important. When a condensor mic is on axis to the sigers mouth, the sound is harsher and brighter. When the mic is off axis to the singers mouth, the sound gets a bit warmer and darker. This is due to the sound hitting the mic capsule.The mic capsule captures the singerschest resonance and by changing the axis of the capsule, you change the sound that mic records. An off axis tilt toards the ceiling can help prevent popping and sibiliance.
    Now you are aware that the slightest movements and change of positions can alter and change the sound dramatically. You should make notes on the distance and mic position relative to the singer, incase you need to Puch In.
    Pop filters are important. They help filter out pops and plosives. They help with words thatbegin with "P" or "B" Pop are very hard to get rid of after its recorded and most of the time, you need to re-reocrd that section, so invest in a pop filter.
     
    Note, im not done and this isnt even published yet on my site. But it will be very soon 
     
    I have not spelled checked it yet, so be nice  
     
     
    I finished it. Heres the link if anyone is interested http://audio-mastering-mixing.com/FAQ.html#24
    post edited by CJaysMusic - 2010/04/27 18:45:55

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    #13
    No How
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 16:44:07 (permalink)
    Is it common knowledge or not true????
    Either way, us underschlepps who can't afford every book and DVD on the subject can not be reminded enough. 

    s o n g s

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    #14
    Philip
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 16:49:10 (permalink)
    Great thread:
    This is sensitive topic ... and excellent review, RhymeStars, with some excellent pearls (like recording mid-room when there are hard objects).

    I'm working on a vox-intensive piece that applies many of your principles.  (I'm lapping them up like a dog)

    +1 SkullSession, on the S-issues ... I'm finding fewer de-ess corrections with better vox recording.  A good pre-amp can redeem some mics, IMO.

    I hope to chime in with some issues I wrestle with daily, like:

    Its still a tough act to process vocals with a limiter (1st) and a compressor (2nd) ... which many of us smartly do.  (before applying fx's)

    One still has to go in and repeatedly manually re-adjust the (3) clip gains (pre-fader) before having consistently level vocals.  OUCH!  And if I touch the limiter or compressor ... one has to go through the balance act all over again.

    IOWS: The (1) limiter (2) compressor (3) clip-gain is a tough act to juggle as these 3 invariably mess-up each other (for me).

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 17:10:52 (permalink)
    Great thread and cool to take the time to share !!

    I will add to that excelent aproche so stuff to keep in mind :

    1 : There's not a goood or bad mix , ther's the mix you want (as an artist) or the client want (in case your just enginneering) .....i usaully have 4 or 5 mixes and all different and (like the cats used to say) all good but different approach !! (some built around the voice , some wild and deep , some narrow and violent as the energy is concentrated , some sounding natural as hell , some fukin treated !! all fun !!)

    2 : This introduce my second thing : as there's alot of option one is to build the mix around the voice , to be more generalistik , to build around the most beautifull , well recorded or whatevevr you want to shine instrument(including the voice) , if the preformer is killer and you don't want to make compromises to that perf (talkin about placement , dynamic , eq...) build the whole thing around !!

    3 : This one is some that the op said in another and this the most (imho) underated thing : the overprocessing : alot of cats and of my students are strappe to death with plugins and harware sometime , and justify the investmnet by using is too much and are afraid to not use it (so thinking something must be wrong) : hell no !!
    I made tracks without one eq and one comp no effects except reverb (track : "i'll pay fa it featuring Soulja slim and mystikal" for exemple made with a sound blaster live !)  so just use if really needed ...this inbtroduces this one :

    4 Spend time in production = mixing real quick
    Choosin the right instruments , placement and frequency wise is a gain of time and a waranty of good sound !!

    Nothin to add for the moment , watching the champions league at the smae time !!, this apply for vocals and all !!

    rymstar post should be marked as helpfull !!


    post edited by Zo - 2010/04/27 17:13:14

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    #16
    Philip
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 17:25:18 (permalink)
    +4 Zo.

    Also: a quick fix when I don't have CJ's pop-shield on hand on the condensor mic ... (which is more often than not) ...

    In cardiode mode, I hold the mic angled 20 degrees-ish off with my thumb and index finger on the 2 front edges of the mic (acting as the pop shield).  While not as great as my clumsy pop shield

    ... I can now sing/rap directly and adhoc in front of my computer better than ever.  (Of course the pre-amp and mic are dampened and with medium roll-off)

    Philip  
    (Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 17:38:53 (permalink)
    Thks Philip

    One more thing , if you're serious about catching a performance , look for a combo , not a good mic or a good preamp ::

    let's make it clear , what is gonna kill is the right mic with the right preamp , a match combo willl sound WAY better than a 3000 mic and a 3000 preamp !!

    Take an AKG 414 , put it on an avalon 737 and your gonna say well this mic or the avalon sucks , take a U87 and you have a dream : why not beacuse the U87 is better but the U87 and the avalon matches themself very well , and the 414 kills on an Universal audio for example

    So for example i was as some may know , on the look out for my homestudio , lookin for a combo (new and portable) ...i also got great prices from distributors so i have checked every preamp under 2000 euros and every mic under 1500 euros , the cobo i ended for was making me crazy and surprised : Rode K2 , focusrite isa one !!! better result than a Brauner anniversary and ADL 600 !! for example , yes i was like (liljon style) what ?
    and i do know that the brauner is abetter mic and the adl 600 is a beast but the combo i chosse was just better !!also new preamp like the isa one have now diffrent impedances than can really make the difference and make the preamp way more versatile!!

    We're really living in a crzay edge where with 1000 euros , you have a studio quality combo !!



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    #18
    rhymestars
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 18:14:43 (permalink)
    Good stuff guys.  I know that techniques go on for days and there are a million ways to do things but often times hearing it from many people can help others come to their own understanding. There is now way we could sum up the past ten years of audio practice in one thread  but it is cool of you to share what you know.
     
    Also keep in mind this is what works for me and rap. R and B is a whole nother book or books. lol. There is so much to cover. so forgive me if i pass over details while i anxiously type.
     
    Good mic and pre combos are nice and consistant because they share the same inner hardware and circuitry.
    I have been seeing alot of bigger producers gutting gear to replace connections, transistors, and saudering with quality metal and product.
    I know my spellings sucks too ....Oh well
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    rhymestars
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 18:17:04 (permalink)
    Zo


    Thks Philip

    One more thing , if you're serious about catching a performance , look for a combo , not a good mic or a good preamp ::

    let's make it clear , what is gonna kill is the right mic with the right preamp , a match combo willl sound WAY better than a 3000 mic and a 3000 preamp !!

    Take an AKG 414 , put it on an avalon 737 and your gonna say well this mic or the avalon sucks , take a U87 and you have a dream : why not beacuse the U87 is better but the U87 and the avalon matches themself very well , and the 414 kills on an Universal audio for example

    So for example i was as some may know , on the look out for my homestudio , lookin for a combo (new and portable) ...i also got great prices from distributors so i have checked every preamp under 2000 euros and every mic under 1500 euros , the cobo i ended for was making me crazy and surprised : Rode K2 , focusrite isa one !!! better result than a Brauner anniversary and ADL 600 !! for example , yes i was like (liljon style) what ?
    and i do know that the brauner is abetter mic and the adl 600 is a beast but the combo i chosse was just better !!also new preamp like the isa one have now diffrent impedances than can really make the difference and make the preamp way more versatile!!

    We're really living in a crzay edge where with 1000 euros , you have a studio quality combo !!

    The K2 is a great hiphop mic. Really authentic gritty hiphop vocals. Good presence
    #20
    rhymestars
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 18:21:24 (permalink)
    Here is a professional reference to How Dre Does 50 vocals

    50 CENT
    "In Da Club"
    Producer: Dr. Dre
    Engineer: Vito (Mauricio Iragorri)
    "With 50, he's an artist with such an amazing voice," says Vito. "You just put him behind a microphone and it just sounds good! My job is make sure it doesn't distort and it's not overloading. While he's vibing and doing his thing, I'm scrambling to make sure nothing is going wrong with the signal path."
    "Recording vocals with Dre is a meticulous process," Vito reveals. "There are some exceptions, like 50 is an exception. There are some people that just do it, and there's not much punching involved. And there are other people who need a lot of punching, and that means maybe a couple words at a time until all the rhythm and the pockets are correct. Dre has an amazing sense of rhythm. He hears all these crazy rhythms in the vocal and, because he's a rapper as well, he knows how it should be performed. As a producer he's great, but as a rapper he knows what pocket they should be hitting and he can really coach someone well. Working with Dre on vocals is cool because you get to see how he directs someone and they actually sound the best they've ever sounded."
    Signal Path: Tracking
    "I like my vocals to sound 'crystal,'" says Dre. "I use the Sony C800-G for vocals because it has a clean sound and about 85% of the people that get behind it sound great. My main objective is that the vocal sound is present and clean and ultimately does not distort. I get the sound I want out of the EQ on the SSL. We've used it forever and have made many hits on it, including 50's 'In Da Club.'"
     
     
    "We come from the Sony C800-G and out of that into the Neve 1073 mic pre," explains Vito. "We don't use the EQ, because most of the time it sounds good flat. If there's a need for it we'll engage it, but for 50 Cent on 'In Da Club' we didn't use any EQ. Then we took it out of the Neve mic pre into the Avalon 737-SP compressor. It's a mic pre with EQ, and it actually has a compressor, but we're not using any of the mic pre on the Avalon - we're just going straight into the line input. From the output of the Neve it goes into the line input of the Avalon, which allows you to use the compressor alone. We set the compression ratio around 7:1 and the threshold usually hovers at around 0. I set it at a medium attack and fast release. I'd say we're using around 3 or 4 dB of compression, sometimes up to 7 dB. On 'In Da Club' it was about 4 or 5. Then it comes back into the SSL 4000 G with E modules (at Encore Studio) and we bring it back on the insert.
    "There's a patch on the patch bay that says 'insert return,'" he continues, "and that's where we bring the vocal back into the insert return, because it's the shortest patch before you actually hear the vocal. It has the least amount of circuitry of anything in the channel, so you're bypassing the EQ, the dynamics. You could use it all, but if you really want the shortest, cleanest signal, that's the way to go. Then we bus it out to Pro Tools HD and we use the small fader to send it to PT. That's about it."
    Discovery
    "The way we came to this chain is - a while ago, when I first started out, I was assisting for Dr. Dre," says Vito. "I noticed how their engineer was doing it and it sounded good. The records sounded amazing, so when Dre hired me to engineer, I told him, 'Ya gotta buy some of these,' and he bought some 1073s. I had heard for a long time that they were really good mic pre's to run vocals through. At Encore, where I was assisting, they had one there, and anytime we were doing a session we would always run vocals through it. So when I saw Dre doing it, it was just cool seeing a rap guy using a 1073! That's how we came up with it. As for the compressor, it's just a good tube-sounding compressor. Sometimes we use the dbx 160 - the original - as an alternate compressor; it sounds good and we've used that on a lot of records."
    Signal Path: Mixdown
    The Yamaha SPX-1000 played a prominent role in mixdown. "We used a REV-5 room setting," says Vito. "There are a couple patches in there that sound really good. They're old reverbs and they're not the best nor most expensive, but they sound good, they're reliable, and that's all that matters! For R&B the Lexicon reverbs sound great. They work good for R&B, but for rap the SPX works good. We've used Lexicon's before too and they work okay. It's depends on the song and the artist and what you're looking for in the song. Like on Eve's stuff we used the SPX-1000, too."
    post edited by rhymestars - 2010/04/27 18:23:53
    #21
    CJaysMusic
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 18:46:53 (permalink)

    a quick fix when I don't have CJ's pop-shield on hand on the condensor mic
    Do I need to give you another one!!!!!!!
    Cj
    I finished that section up, Hereit is http://audio-mastering-mixing.com/FAQ.html#24

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    #22
    Zo
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 20:35:48 (permalink)
    the K2 is underated in otha things than hip hop it kills for example i acoustic guitar , or drums for example , crazy on a female voice , again i get that crazy clean and precise sound i want cause the isa one is a crazy good solid state (clean as ssl , stylish as neve who designed it (isa 110 to be precise witch is a isa one plus other treatment)

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    #23
    Middleman
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 23:19:42 (permalink)
    C800-G into a 1073, that goes along way toward getting the right sound. Just build around that and the mix should work.

    It always kills me that people stress out over the "right vocal sound" 9 times out of 10, on the pro circuit, its the above mic or a Neumann U 47, 67, 87, 149, 150 into a Neve 1073, 1081, 1084 into an LA2A, CL1B or 1176 and voila, you have a killer vocal sound. It would be easier to rent these for a day and it will save you months and years of tweaking software to try and match the sound. Record it right and the mix will follow.

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    #24
    skullsession
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/27 23:25:28 (permalink)
    rhymestars


    Here is a professional reference to How Dre Does 50 vocals

    50 CENT
    "In Da Club"
    Producer: Dr. Dre
    Engineer: Vito (Mauricio Iragorri)
    "With 50, he's an artist with such an amazing voice," says Vito. "You just put him behind a microphone and it just sounds good! My job is make sure it doesn't distort and it's not overloading. While he's vibing and doing his thing, I'm scrambling to make sure nothing is going wrong with the signal path."
    "Recording vocals with Dre is a meticulous process," Vito reveals. "There are some exceptions, like 50 is an exception. There are some people that just do it, and there's not much punching involved. And there are other people who need a lot of punching, and that means maybe a couple words at a time until all the rhythm and the pockets are correct. Dre has an amazing sense of rhythm. He hears all these crazy rhythms in the vocal and, because he's a rapper as well, he knows how it should be performed. As a producer he's great, but as a rapper he knows what pocket they should be hitting and he can really coach someone well. Working with Dre on vocals is cool because you get to see how he directs someone and they actually sound the best they've ever sounded."
    Signal Path: Tracking
    "I like my vocals to sound 'crystal,'" says Dre. "I use the Sony C800-G for vocals because it has a clean sound and about 85% of the people that get behind it sound great. My main objective is that the vocal sound is present and clean and ultimately does not distort. I get the sound I want out of the EQ on the SSL. We've used it forever and have made many hits on it, including 50's 'In Da Club.'"
     
     
    "We come from the Sony C800-G and out of that into the Neve 1073 mic pre," explains Vito. "We don't use the EQ, because most of the time it sounds good flat. If there's a need for it we'll engage it, but for 50 Cent on 'In Da Club' we didn't use any EQ. Then we took it out of the Neve mic pre into the Avalon 737-SP compressor. It's a mic pre with EQ, and it actually has a compressor, but we're not using any of the mic pre on the Avalon - we're just going straight into the line input. From the output of the Neve it goes into the line input of the Avalon, which allows you to use the compressor alone. We set the compression ratio around 7:1 and the threshold usually hovers at around 0. I set it at a medium attack and fast release. I'd say we're using around 3 or 4 dB of compression, sometimes up to 7 dB. On 'In Da Club' it was about 4 or 5. Then it comes back into the SSL 4000 G with E modules (at Encore Studio) and we bring it back on the insert.
    "There's a patch on the patch bay that says 'insert return,'" he continues, "and that's where we bring the vocal back into the insert return, because it's the shortest patch before you actually hear the vocal. It has the least amount of circuitry of anything in the channel, so you're bypassing the EQ, the dynamics. You could use it all, but if you really want the shortest, cleanest signal, that's the way to go. Then we bus it out to Pro Tools HD and we use the small fader to send it to PT. That's about it."
    Discovery
    "The way we came to this chain is - a while ago, when I first started out, I was assisting for Dr. Dre," says Vito. "I noticed how their engineer was doing it and it sounded good. The records sounded amazing, so when Dre hired me to engineer, I told him, 'Ya gotta buy some of these,' and he bought some 1073s. I had heard for a long time that they were really good mic pre's to run vocals through. At Encore, where I was assisting, they had one there, and anytime we were doing a session we would always run vocals through it. So when I saw Dre doing it, it was just cool seeing a rap guy using a 1073! That's how we came up with it. As for the compressor, it's just a good tube-sounding compressor. Sometimes we use the dbx 160 - the original - as an alternate compressor; it sounds good and we've used that on a lot of records."
    Signal Path: Mixdown
    The Yamaha SPX-1000 played a prominent role in mixdown. "We used a REV-5 room setting," says Vito. "There are a couple patches in there that sound really good. They're old reverbs and they're not the best nor most expensive, but they sound good, they're reliable, and that's all that matters! For R&B the Lexicon reverbs sound great. They work good for R&B, but for rap the SPX works good. We've used Lexicon's before too and they work okay. It's depends on the song and the artist and what you're looking for in the song. Like on Eve's stuff we used the SPX-1000, too."

    Normally, when a person quotes an article written by someone else, they say so up front.  Or, they simply post a link to it so that people can read it.
     
    What they DON'T do, if they want to retain any crumb of credibility, is post the article, verbatim, giving no credit whatsoever to the original article or siting the source. 
     
    HERE is the link to the original article where rhymestars lifted his post:
    http://www.avalondesign.com/testsite/news_090305.html
     
    post edited by skullsession - 2010/04/27 23:35:20

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    #25
    CJaysMusic
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/28 00:13:32 (permalink)
    Normally, when a person quotes an article written by someone else, they say so up front

    He's trying to be a big shot. Now that damn Billy Joel ssong is in my head........
    cj

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    gamblerschoice
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/28 01:04:33 (permalink)
    11.
    Why Shouldn't I Master Master My Own Material ?

    CJ: I went to your site to check it out, you have a lot of very good, valuable information there. I intend on going back and checking out more later. But I thought I would point this typo out to you.

    Not trying to be a wise a$$, I know how things are with stuff like this. It doesn't matter how many times I re-read and check myself for typos and things, I always seem to miss a couple. I always have my wife proof read my stuff, after I've run the spell checker and re-read it a couple times myself, and she invariably finds something in the first few sentences that I missed.

    Hope you don't mind. You obviously put a lot of work into this and it is a very professional looking site, so I thought you might take this in the spirit it was offered...

    Later
    Albert

    http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/lothlorienfantasy
    http://www.gamblerschoice.us/



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    #27
    AT
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/28 01:14:41 (permalink)
    A lot of good stuff - both pro and con.

    A couple of points:

    Center of a less-than-idea room can have sonic problems.  Everything meets in the center.

    6 inches might be a good distance for hip hop, but I find backing the singer farther back (room permitting) gives a better sound.  Smoother would be the word, in that there is a fractional narrowing of the dB differential between loudest and softest vox - compression by distance.  It makes a difference, esp. if you are running hot as suggested.  That can save your ass - even if you are running a comp you can get distortion.  Same w/ the 0dB suggestion.  A bit too close of a shave.

    But overall a very good tutorial how you do it.  Great things to try, and if you are working up your technique, some invaluble tips.  But there is more than one way to skin a cat, or a PRO vox.  Use suggestions as a guide, as Rhymestars suggests.

    And in a forum, I expect we can let some of the academic conventions slide.  I figured he was quoting.  Nice to point out etiquete, tho.


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    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
    #28
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/28 05:26:26 (permalink)
    Another thought on de-essing.

    I tend to do a lot of harmony work with my tame vocalist, and in my epexerience, it's the layering & buildup of sibilant sounds that cause the problem.

    A single voice in isolation doesn't usually cause me any problems.

    Solution - on all harmony/doubled/multi'ed takes, get your vocalist to NOT SING the 'S'

    This method has the added advantage of not having a cascade of s - s - s - s - s at the end of a phrase where the timing on each take might be slightly out (saving a fair bit of edititng time if you really want that level of precision)

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    #29
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:UPON REQUEST: Industry vocal mixing techniques. BETTER VOCAL PROCESSING. 2010/04/28 08:03:36 (permalink)
    In the old days we were simply advised not to write songs with a lot of S sounds in them.

    That way it sounded nice even if the microphone *broke* and you simply had to sing to the room.




    #30
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