sandman5000

StevenMikel

Beagle


it's going to be on the same level as the UX2.

Thanks Beagle.I'm going with the UX2 becuase I'm familiar with Line6 and I already have PodFarm2.

here is a very detailed review of the UX2:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=642117

  That was great,thanks Sandman.

"I have a Delta 66/Omni I/O combo and I did not notice any obvious differences sonically.
Line 6 states that the gain range on the mic pre is from +9.5dB to +60dB. The DMP2 preamps, on my Delta Omni I/O provide 66dB of gain and seem to run much hotter than the 6db difference, when comparing the gain difference, using my Shure SM7 condenser,
and have a little warmer sound overall."

The Shure SM7 is not a condenser mic. Sometimes technical details make a big difference... as I will demonstrate below:

"Using the ASIO drivers, you can get as low as 128 samples (2.9msec). No problems so far, I've used both the Dimension (230MB Grand Piano) & Lounge Lizard @ 128 samples, with no dropouts or crackles using an XP Pro 2.4Ghz/1GB laptop, in SONAR 5.
Great for playing softsynths like Dimension in realtime, from my laptop."

This is incredibly deceptive because it is easy to confirm that the actual real life latency is approximately 12msec not 2.9msec

So if the extra 9msec is going to hamper your enjoyment... you deserve to know about that before you make your purchase.

You might simply believe Jim or I, or you may wish to perform a ping test. It's really easy to do, so easy in fact that you might wonder why some people pretend they haven't done it.

Having said that I'd like to point out that you may want to seek out the actual real life numbers for the other device if you wish to arrive at the answer to your question.

I don't have the answer at hand... but at least I can suggest that you ask the question so that a correct answer may be provided.

12msec is a lot different that 2.9msec and if you ask the questions properly and receive accurate answers you will have some chance to decide for yourself what you will prefer.

If someone simply makes up a number like 2.9msec (128samples x 1sample/44100sec = 2.9msec) and then plays a shell game with you about the round trip latency then that person is trying to make the decision for you.

You deserve the right to make your own decision.

I sort of understand why vendors lie about latency with the math I demonstrated above... but I am befuddled when someone posing as a colleague would perpetuate the very same sort of deceptive practices.

It gets even weirder when the colleague creating all the confusion gets all pissy and confrontational.

Good luck.

all the best,
mike


edited to remove excessive opinions about people whom practice deception.

Run the ping test.

Post the results.

I don't have a ux2 sitting here.

My friend Jim had one and you simply refuse to believe the measurement he has reported having made.


Here are my MOTU's actual measured and verifiable round trip latency results:

128 sample (advertised as 2.9msec @ 44.1kHz)   Real Life round trip:  371 samples in 8.41msec

64 sample (advertised as 1.45msec @ 44.1kHz)   Real Life round trip:  173 samples in 3.92msec

32 sample (advertised as 0.73msec @ 44.1kHz)   Real Life round trip:  109 samples in 2.47msec


Can you do the OP et al a favor and provide similar factual data for your UX2?


You keep saying it's 2.9msec and the sandman5000 likes it... I keep saying why don't you tell the truth about the latency and let other people decide what they might like all by themselves.

Is that clear?

best regards,
mike

 Reguardless of tests,asking the right question,or any other claims,I only have a certian amount of $ to spend that tops out around $250 and thats realy stretchin it. Right now I'm considering the Line6 UX2 and the Native Instruments Audio Kontrol 1, they both come with amp sims.
   I do aprreciate all of the input and some of this arguing is providing some good info and something to think about when I can afford to upgrade.

mike_mccue


Steven I hope someone will give you the facts on the other unit so that you may compare.

12msec may be fine for you.

12msec may be the very best you can have for $250... I don't know.

But, I do know that if people simply refuse to provide the numbers, and insist on offering their opinions instead, that you will never have a fair chance to decide.

Good luck... it must be exhausting to have to wade through so much misinformation.

best regards,
mike

   Thanks Mike.It is a little tedious reading all of this stuff but,its a learning experience too.From all that I've read,at the price range I can afford($150 to $250),there isn't alot of difference from unit to unit.I would like to know if the round trip latency of the Audio Kontrol1 is better than that of the UX2.I've asked in a couple of forums but,no responses yet.Beagle said that over all the,Audio Kontrol1 is similar to the UX2.

As far as the Audio Kontrol,  I was interested in it when it first came out.  But I got turned off by reading a lot of reports of bad drivers.  However,  that may have changed and I do like the NI sound. 

sandman5000


mike,  just to inform you,  the latency only comes into play when you are monitoring through SOME fx.  But if you use the line 6 fx ( and they are native),  that is not an issue at all. 

So your 12ms latency number only comes into play in CERTAIN situations.  And the OP has stated that he won't use the unit in a way where that will matter. 

the last review I posted a link to was very thorough. 

Do yourself a favor and go try the unit.  Then you will see for yourself that it's you who is spreading misinformation and confusion.  Not trying to get into a pissing contest,  but you got your facts wrong here.  I realize you think you have a point,  but line 6 is different.  So again,  try the unit yourself and you will see.

You see, there you go again... you are not only stating the obvious... you obviously haven't acknowledged that I agreed with this several days ago in this very thread.

You act like you are the only one capable of reading... but you demonstrate that you do not read.

Good luck with that method of persuasion.

It's creepy.

creepy?  lol.  You come here completely attacking me.  Clearly with a personal vendetta.  You ignore other actual users.  You have not used the unit yourself,  yet you sput off like you know what you are talking about.  Now that is creepy!

Anyway,  enjoy your insults and pissing match.  Really it says a whole lot more about you than it does me. 

Happy New Year :)

lol mike!  you are really too much.  It seems like everything you are trying to accuse me of,  applies to you.  Now it seems like its you who failed reading comprehension.  I keep telling you the RTL is not an issue with line 6. they use a different technology. And the 12 is only in CERTAIN situations (one the OP said he will not use).   If you used the unit you would see for yourself. 

Mike,  you seem like you have other issues going on.  Take care man.  I'm not interested in playing out your mental issues on a public forum.  Or anywhere else really. 

God bless. 

  How is the roundtrip latency of the Cakewalk UA-25EX USB?

StevenMikel


  How is the roundtrip latency of the Cakewalk UA-25EX USB?

You're going to have to work hard to ferret out that information.

There are only two companies on the planet that will proudly specify the round trip latency on their USB devices.

Cakewalk in particular simply refuses... and there is a reason for that.

I have asked them to provide that specification for their gear for several years but they simply refuse because the reality is that the numbers for most USB systems are relatively high.

Once again, I am advising you to seek out, if not even demand all these facts so that your $250 dollar budget is spent in such a way that you are truly satisfied when you finally buy your gear.

Good luck!

best regards,
mike

StevenMikel


  How is the roundtrip latency of the Cakewalk UA-25EX USB?

I have not used that unit,  so I will not coment on it specifically.  But I will say that I have the VS100 and I love it.  I get very low latency with it.  I also have the edirol pcr -a30 and I can get very low latency with it as well.  Both of those units are made by Roland (as is UA-25EX).  Overall,  I really like Roland products. 

  I am the op.

I just need good solid info.Things like audio quality and latency(round trip and otherwise)from unit to unit.I know that in my price range there isn't alot of difference unit to unit but,if theres a difference,I'd like to know what it is.

Mike and Sandman its obvious there is some animosity between the 2 of you and your ongoing argument has provided some good info and some entertainment but,its starting to get kind of stupid.

Hi StevenMikeL

I wanted to leave you with one last thought:

I am now going to share my pinions about round trip latency... and the reason I am doing this is that it has been my observation that many people who have a limited budget spend their money and then meet disappointment when they are disturbed by latency.

As you can see, it is difficult to find the real numbers. When you do you may find the opinion I am about to share useful.

remember when I posted this?:

Here are my MOTU's actual measured and verifiable round trip latency results:

128 sample (advertised as 2.9msec @ 44.1kHz)   Real Life round trip:  371 samples in 8.41msec

64 sample (advertised as 1.45msec @ 44.1kHz)   Real Life round trip:  173 samples in 3.92msec

32 sample (advertised as 0.73msec @ 44.1kHz)   Real Life round trip:  109 samples in 2.47msec


I wanted to let you know that in my experience 8.41msec is only usable with headphones. If I use live room monitors, which I prefer, and they are a few feet from me then it is too much latency for enjoyment or great performance. Furthermore 8.41msec seems to bother all my guests as well.

At 3.92msec the issue becomes moot... live room is fine and headphones are like being inside the amp.


12msec is easily noticeable, with or without headphones... but if you end up at 12msec the headphones will probably be the only choice.

When I first started with a DAW I thought that I would never monitor through the DAW.

Now, I do it all the time... it's great. I am about to get N.I mouth, which is a funky vocoder tool... I could have never imagined that I would get to use something like that within a DAW in near real time.

So, throughout this conversation I have sort of hoped that you might discover that the fact that an affordable USB device exists that does true real life 5.5msec latency is a blessing to anyone on a budget.

A device with 5.5msec RTL will be useful for you for as long as you use it and will work great with all the efx that you may later have ambitions to use.

I don't know how much the fast track ultra costs, and I don't care to send M-audio money but I think that must the the very best choice at the moment for anyone starting out that does not have a cool external monitoring system set up.

You may be thinking about guitar right now, but when you go to vocals you'll probably wish that you can monitor through SONAR as so many of us have learned to enjoy.

As I say, I would have never imagined doing so but I now send vocals through an IK CSR plate reverb VST when monitoring round trip through SONAR... and it's just fantastic that any of us can do that.

So, that's what I am hoping you can discover for yourself... but I see it is going to be very difficult to find it out without someone actually throwing out some opinions.

I don't think my personal opinion should have that much weight on the matter, but it has been my observation that my guests and many people posting online are turned off by latency beyond about 8 or 9 msec... especially when they are singing and used to hearing absolute ZERO latency in their head.

This is why I am making a big deal about the idea that you should know what the actual latency is because it is critical to the long term enjoyment and your decision will effect the likely hood that you may enjoy monitoring in a manner that you may at this time not anticipate ever doing.

I apologize for the distractions and I hope that what ever you choose that you enjoy it greatly.

best regards,
mike