Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/18 11:09:50
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SilverBlueMedallion
Anderton
I know people hate when I suggest workarounds, but...
Couldn't you render the audio rather than freeze, then archive the synth track? More work, but it would eliminate freezing as a problem.
And now I'm really grasping at straws, but what happens if you increase the latency? I had to bounce some Pro Tools stuff so I could create something suitable for SONAR, but had to increase latency to 1024 samples before it would bounce reliably.
Yes I could render the audio, however, I may not be done with it. I can't commit my synth parts until ALL synth parts are recorded.
But if you archive the MIDI instrument, then it's disconnected from the CPU and therefore saves resources, but you can get it back at any time by unarchiving it. Freezing basically just automates the render/archive for freezing, and unarchive/delete render for unfreezing. I'd be curious if the same thing happens if you freeze "manually." Did you try MIDI learning something for that control then forgetting it? The fact that it doesn't happen with a new project would indicate some kind of interaction, but I have no idea what that would be...
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/18 11:15:50
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Anderton
SilverBlueMedallion
Anderton
I know people hate when I suggest workarounds, but...
Couldn't you render the audio rather than freeze, then archive the synth track? More work, but it would eliminate freezing as a problem.
And now I'm really grasping at straws, but what happens if you increase the latency? I had to bounce some Pro Tools stuff so I could create something suitable for SONAR, but had to increase latency to 1024 samples before it would bounce reliably.
Yes I could render the audio, however, I may not be done with it. I can't commit my synth parts until ALL synth parts are recorded.
But if you archive the MIDI instrument, then it's disconnected from the CPU and therefore saves resources, but you can get it back at any time by unarchiving it. Freezing basically just automates the render/archive for freezing, and unarchive/delete render for unfreezing. I'd be curious if the same thing happens if you freeze "manually."
Did you try MIDI learning something for that control then forgetting it?
The fact that it doesn't happen with a new project would indicate some kind of interaction, but I have no idea what that would be...
yea I agree. It is something with THIS project. No MIDI Learn or CC stuff going on here either. not in this track. and like I posted, it isn't a freezing problem... the problem happens when I save and then re-open the file too. The synth parameters simply dont save correctly. However, maybe you are opening my eyes to this archiving method. I assume 30 audio tracks is much lighter on resources than 30 synth tracks, correct? Or wait, I can still use freezing to achieve that, right?
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/18 15:02:16
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SilverBlueMedallion
However, maybe you are opening my eyes to this archiving method.
I assume 30 audio tracks is much lighter on resources than 30 synth tracks, correct? Waaaaaaaay lighter!! Or wait, I can still use freezing to achieve that, right? Yes, but as I said, freezing really just automates the render+archive process. I mentioned it in case the freezing process itself is causing a problem for some reason, but apparently that's not the source of the issue.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/18 15:43:45
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Anderton
SilverBlueMedallion
However, maybe you are opening my eyes to this archiving method.
I assume 30 audio tracks is much lighter on resources than 30 synth tracks, correct?
Waaaaaaaay lighter!!
Or wait, I can still use freezing to achieve that, right?
Yes, but as I said, freezing really just automates the render+archive process. I mentioned it in case the freezing process itself is causing a problem for some reason, but apparently that's not the source of the issue.
I think I understand... are you saying freezing doesn't save on system resources as much as render+archive? Or is it equivalent as far as system resources is concerned, because I find freezing so much simpler. Thank You!
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/18 19:29:27
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☄ Helpfulby SilverBlueMedallion 2016/12/18 21:24:02
SilverBlueMedallion
I think I understand... are you saying freezing doesn't save on system resources as much as render+archive? Or is it equivalent as far as system resources is concerned, because I find freezing so much simpler.
They're equivalent.
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KPerry
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/19 05:34:22
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Two points:
1. The VST spec absolutely mandates that if you select a (VST) preset and make changes to the settings, the changes are written to the preset in that instance of the plug-in without requiring saving. It's a bonkers implementation, but it is what it is, and SONAR behaves "correctly" in this respect.
2. There is (bugs in a plug-in/host aside :-)) absolutely no need to save the current settings in a VST plug-in as a preset in order for them to be restored on re-load of the project - the plug-in's settings are stored directly in the project file.
Windows 7 x64 SP1 SONAR x86/x64 Intel Q6600/8GB MOTU UltraliteMk3 (USB/ASIO) Edirol PCR300
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tenfoot
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/19 06:39:52
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I have seen this many times on all kinds of VST synths in SONAR - though inconsistently. After freezing synths they are reloaded with a default patch rather than what they were frozen with. Saving the preset before freezing will not fix this. I am now careful to put the preset name in the midi track title before freezing so that I can recall it manually if need be.
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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Roo Stercogburn
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/19 08:37:12
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kennywtelejazzI used to love freezing synths and then editing the frozen tracks ...More than once it was goodbye to all my hard work when it all went back to midi ... Hehe yeh this has happened to me somewhat. I tend to export and re-import these days unless its purely to cut down on CPU overhead. Stuff like Omnisphere and Serum just wants to own my CPU no matter how much grunt I throw at them.
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bitflipper
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/19 10:53:49
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KPerry
...the changes are written to the preset in that instance of the plug-in without requiring saving.
Yes, but what if there is no instance, e.g. the plugin has been unloaded? Can SONAR still save the patch, independent of the VST? I do not know the answer to this, but I'm thinking that it's likely to be "no".
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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KPerry
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/19 11:19:52
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bitflipper
KPerry
...the changes are written to the preset in that instance of the plug-in without requiring saving.
Yes, but what if there is no instance, e.g. the plugin has been unloaded? Can SONAR still save the patch, independent of the VST? I do not know the answer to this, but I'm thinking that it's likely to be "no".
The instance is still there in the project file, just not "loaded" (for want of a better word) into working memory - SONAR needs to know what to reload (otherwise it couldn't even show in the Synth Rack as disabled :-)).
Windows 7 x64 SP1 SONAR x86/x64 Intel Q6600/8GB MOTU UltraliteMk3 (USB/ASIO) Edirol PCR300
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Blogospherianman
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/19 17:53:40
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This used to and still happens to me too! Very frustrating! Instead of freezing, Try using 'Bounce to Track'. Either pre-create and label a destination audio track or simply bounce to a new track. You Must highlight the midi track AND the synth audio track for the audio to bounce. Once bounced you can right click on the synth in the synth rack and unload the synth to save resources and prevent hearing the doubling. You can always right click and reload it back if you need to rebounce or say bounce a different mic position of the same instrument e.g. piano close mic, player mic, room mic.. I haven't experienced anything changing in a synth that has been unloaded and then reloaded. I certainly have been burned by freezing and un-freezing though!! I also save the presets for future using and back up.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 02:22:41
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to come back to this thread... now it is effecting EVERY softsynth! Every single one! Same project, just been using it for a while with frozen tracks. Seriously - a MAJOR problem...
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tenfoot
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 03:58:43
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SilverBlueMedallion
to come back to this thread... now it is effecting EVERY softsynth! Every single one! Same project, just been using it for a while with frozen tracks. Seriously - a MAJOR problem...
Agreed. Of all of the 'quirks' of Sonar this one is a major PITA that has cost me lot of time. It's been around a while though, so I wouldn't hold my breath for a fix:(
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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pwalpwal
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 05:29:36
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 10:24:51
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so i made a post in the bakery about it, is that the place to get their attention now? this is all too confusing.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 16:32:54
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what is interesting is that, i have another project where this is not an issue.
somewhere along the way, something screws up a project. Wish i knew what.
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tenfoot
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 20:25:06
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SilverBlueMedallion
what is interesting is that, i have another project where this is not an issue.
somewhere along the way, something screws up a project. Wish i knew what.
Yes - I have many new projects were it is not an issue, but I also have a large number (150 + ) that lost all of their patch assignments when re-saved with archived tracks containting disconnected vst synths. It was a group of projects that all had small changes made to them over a couple of days about 18 months ago just after an update release. A further quick fix was released a couple of days later to address issues, so I presumed at the time that it was caused by that particular release as I had never seen it previously. I have had it happen on a couple of projects since, though not to the same extent as that particular catastrophe. I posted problem reports etc but did not receive a response. The issue seems to occur in isolated cases, but with reasonable frequency. It happens upon saving projects with tracks that contain disconnected vst Synths, be they frozen or disconnected/archived, however I have never found a method to consistently reproduce it. Now I am in the habit of including the patch name and number in the track name. It certainly doesn't make it any less annoying though!
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 20:47:13
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tenfoot
The issue seems to occur in isolated cases, but with reasonable frequency. It happens upon saving projects with tracks that contain disconnected vst Synths, be they frozen or disconnected/archived, however I have never found a method to consistently reproduce it.
Bitflipper is pretty sharp. His post above may be hitting the nail on the head...the act of disconnection itself may be in conflict with the VST spec.
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tenfoot
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 21:46:45
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Anderton
tenfoot
The issue seems to occur in isolated cases, but with reasonable frequency. It happens upon saving projects with tracks that contain disconnected vst Synths, be they frozen or disconnected/archived, however I have never found a method to consistently reproduce it.
Bitflipper is pretty sharp. His post above may be hitting the nail on the head...the act of disconnection itself may be in conflict with the VST spec.
True, but I have been using the archive/disconnect method for many years without issue until the above incident. Even since then it does save the patch 99% of the time. Given the seemingly random nature of the problem, it seems to me that there must be some combination of variables that cause the patch save to fail. If it was just that it was outside of the vst spec and Cakewalk had not accounted for that, I would think it should fail consistently.
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 21:51:42
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how do we get THIS thread to be seen by the bakers?
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 22:46:26
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It absolutely has to do with when a synth becomes disconnected. I have an archived version of the same project from before the freezing, and the patches are in tact (thank goodness).
We really need to get this bug fixed for good. It's been on going since at least Sonar 8.
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 22:55:28
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If you bounce the synth tracks, archive, and then return from archive, does it still happen?
As to the Bakers seeing it, they've probably already seen this thread but unless they can reproduce it they won't be able to do much. If you have a recipe to reproduce, that's one option; it's equally good if you have a project where this happens consistently. You can then send the project to the Bakers and if it happens on their system, they can look for the source of the problem.
If you do have a suitable project, PM Keith Albright, explain the symptoms in a matter-of-fact way (avoid the "jeez, when are you morons going to fix this?" approach), and ask him what's the best way to get him the file.
The Bakers do consider file reproducibility important, so I would think this would assigned a pretty high priority.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 23:06:29
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Nope, bouncing and archiving is OK.
It is the act of "disconnecting".
In SOME projects, something happens that causes disconnections of synths to lose their preset parameters.
To add, once you unfreeze and fix the patch (by loading up a saved VST preset), and then freeze again, the settings then stick (even after a disconnect) - for a while anyway, until the problem happens again!
It seems as if something goes in and wipes out the saved VST presets of disconnected synths. I wish I could figure out what.
I understand about the approach. I usually try to keep my calm, but I am on Day #3 now of re-creating patches (trying to get somewhat close) to some of the ones I didn't have saved :(
Very frustrating. Thank you for your help though.
Yea, I would send my project, but I couldn't even get started on what led up to this.
Thank You!
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 23:22:02
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I don't think it matters what led up to it. If you have a project where this problem happens repeatably, that's like gold to a bug hunter. There are already some good clues in this thread that may be very helpful. Note that I've been charged with finding bugs in hardware and software for...well, let's just say a really, really long time (anyone remember MP/M? Come to think of it, was anyone here even born before MP/M?  ). I've encountered bugs sometimes where I've tossed in some last minute observation that seemed not even worth mentioning, but it turned out to be the crucial piece of data that allowed finding the bug. In my experience, what happens with SONAR is about par for the course with a Windows program of this level of complexity, and something like this is probably not too hard to fix with a reproducible project...assuming there's not some inherent, unresolvable conflict.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/28 23:32:49
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this is true, but will they have my VSTs? In this project, I am not using Z3TA or any of the Cakewalk VSTs.
Also if they try to save and disconnect a new synth instance now, it WILL work until it happens again.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2017/01/02 09:32:49
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OK so I am EASILY able to reproduce this, and probably so can you. I will provide you with the patch and even my test file. It happens with ANY project though. Here we go: 1. Create a new blank project. (File -> New -> choose "--BlankProject--") 2. Save the project file 3. Insert Z3TA+2 simple instrument track (or any softsynth, but I am keeping it all Cakewalk for now) 4. Choose a preset and then customize a bunch of parameters. Be sure the AMP release is LONG. I notice this parameter always gets changed. (feel free to use my preset: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pmp0eyip9qh7u2j/patch.fxp?dl=0) (Program -> Load .fxp from within the synth) 5. Record a couple of short MIDI notes (or use my clip: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zczxgeh3t7ttq3w/midi.mid?dl=0) 6. Playback the notes, notice the long "release" of each note. 7. Freeze the track. (notice it still sounds the same, all good) 8. Simply UNFREEZE the track. Playback and you will hear the release time is much shorter. Here is my project folder: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0t14ezf321bjceg/AAByNGCq05cEKo3tsEtXzGHGa?dl=0 This effects not just "release" but various others as well for all different softsynths. At this rate, I am surprised ANYONE can even use this option. It simply DOES NOT WORK. I should NOT have to load up saved .fxp files every time I unfreeze a synth. Total fail on Cakewalk's part.
post edited by SilverBlueMedallion - 2017/01/02 10:13:24
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2017/01/02 12:41:06
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Just tried this using your patch and your Midi notes and unfreezing does NOT affect the release time of any note.
Sounds like this could be system specific related
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2017/01/02 12:43:21
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Bristol_Jonesey
Just tried this using your patch and your Midi notes and unfreezing does NOT affect the release time of any note.
Sounds like this could be system specific related
so the problem gets even MORE interesting. I've had this problem on various machines too! I will try to disconnect all MIDI hardware now. I doubt something I have is sending a signal but who knows. This is NUTS! thanks for checking this out.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2017/01/02 13:00:40
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2017/01/02 13:22:37
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