AdamGrossmanLG
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UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
This has ALWAYS been a problem from time to time... it just happened to me with the Z3TA+2.
I froze an instance of it, the frozen audio sounded fine, but when I unfroze, it changed a bunch of parameters in the synth and now I can't get my sound back!
This has ALWAYS happened in Sonar. I am getting very frustrated with Cakewalk's inability to work with synths properly.
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gustabo
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 11:22:00
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☄ Helpfulby kennywtelejazz 2016/12/17 11:25:00
Why aren't you saving the patch before freezing?
Also, if you're running automation on the patch, the synth will unfreeze at the state last used due to automation.
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Win10 Pro x64 - StudioCat Platinum Studio DAW - 32 GB Ram - MOTU UltraLite-mk3
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 11:23:43
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gustabo
Why aren't you saving the patch before freezing?
because I didn't expect the product to be broken and change my synth sounds. anyway, actually I do all the time and it is annoying! How is that any sort of resolution? It's time this gets FIXED.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 11:34:33
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gustabo
Why aren't you saving the patch before freezing?
Also, if you're running automation on the patch, the synth will unfreeze at the state last used due to automation.
+1 I used to love freezing synths and then editing the frozen tracks ...More than once it was goodbye to all my hard work when it all went back to midi ... One thing I did learn the hard way that was a time-saver and personal sanity keeper .. When ever I found something I liked when my synths were frozen regardless of whether I was doing edits to the frozen tracks or not ... I would always copy over the frozen rendered synth audio over to a brand new audio track that I created in the project just for safe keeping . all the best, Kenny
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 11:48:09
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SilverBlueMedallion
gustabo
Why aren't you saving the patch before freezing?
because I didn't expect the product to be broken and change my synth sounds.
anyway, actually I do all the time and it is annoying! How is that any sort of resolution?
Because with many synths, changes are made in a memory buffer and do not become an "official" part of the preset until saved into some type of permanent memory. I don't know what goes on "under the hood" with freezing, but I assume freezing simply renders the audio. So when you unfreeze, it re-opens the synth and the associated preset, which means it will ignore any temporary changes to the preset. It's the same way with a project. Open a project, change some synth settings, then close the project without saving. When you open the project again, it will open to the original preset, and not incorporate the settings you changed. Same thing with a hardware synth. Make some changes to a preset, then turn it off without saving the preset. Odds are the synth will open up based on the original saved preset parameters. Think about how inconvenient it would be if every time you changed a setting, it overwrote your carefully crafted preset. For me, that's the way synths would work in hell.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 11:56:30
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Anderton
SilverBlueMedallion
gustabo
Why aren't you saving the patch before freezing?
because I didn't expect the product to be broken and change my synth sounds.
anyway, actually I do all the time and it is annoying! How is that any sort of resolution?
Because with many synths, changes are made in a memory buffer and do not become an "official" part of the preset until saved into some type of permanent memory. I don't know what goes on "under the hood" with freezing, but I assume freezing simply renders the audio. So when you unfreeze, it re-opens the synth and the associated preset, which means it will ignore any temporary changes to the preset.
It's the same way with a project. Open a project, change some synth settings, then close the project without saving. When you open the project again, it will open to the original preset, and not incorporate the settings you changed. Same thing with a hardware synth. Make some changes to a preset, then turn it off without saving the preset. Odds are the synth will open up based on the original saved preset parameters.
Think about how inconvenient it would be if every time you changed a setting, it overwrote your carefully crafted preset. For me, that's the way synths would work in hell.
This actually isn't true. I am using a standard Z3TA+2 preset from the Muzeum bank. UNCHANGED. When I unfreeze it mucks around with the ADSR settings on the envelope filter randomly. So its not like I made changes to the patch, then froze without saving it to the synth first.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 11:57:08
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now - do I have to post this yet AGAIN to the Bakery? 2 sites now?
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 11:59:32
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Well, if you save a preset immediately before freezing, unfreeze, and the preset parameters are different (and not just due to something like LFO randomness), then there is an actual problem. I'll test it and see what happens. Can you tell me which preset it is? Or are you saying it happens with all of them? Is it just the ADSR on the filter, or other parameters as well?
Hmmm...I don't see a Muzeum bank under the classic content or factory content. Where is it?
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bitflipper
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:02:25
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Whether or not the customizations you'd applied to that instrument's patch will be saved with the project can depend on whether the synth was unloaded after the freeze (and how the instrument saves its state). That's the default behavior, since the reason you freeze a track is to free up resources.
You can, however, tell SONAR to not unload the synth on freezing (dropdown menu at the top of the synth rack), but that will leave the synth in place and you won't recycle the memory it was using. A more reliable solution is to save the patch/instrument before freezing.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:04:13
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He's saying he's not changing the patch at all. But we don't know what modulations are applied to the parameters he says are changed, which is why I want to know what preset he's using.
I don't use freeze much, I render and delete so I don't have much experience with this. All I know is the render sounds as expected.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:06:48
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Anderton
Well, if you save a preset immediately before freezing, unfreeze, and the preset parameters are different (and not just due to something like LFO randomness), then there is an actual problem. I'll test it and see what happens. Can you tell me which preset it is? Or are you saying it happens with all of them? Is it just the ADSR on the filter, or other parameters as well?
Hmmm...I don't see a Muzeum bank under the classic content or factory content. Where is it?
hi Anderton, Yes, I am saving the preset before freezing and yes it is changing preset parameters such as ADSR, not LFO randomness or anything in the matrix. I am attaching the preset here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/33lno3qj60k4yzs/Patch001.fxp?dl=0 Thank you for checking this out!
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bitflipper
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:09:29
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I've seen the phenomenon before, going back to at least SONAR 5. I don't think it's SONAR's fault, or at least not a recently-introduced bug.
The question I have for CW devs is: what does "unloading" a synth really mean? How do you unload a synth from the project, leaving only a placeholder, without losing the synthesizer's state? Most of the time, you apparently can. I can't tell you which synths are prone to this problem, because after the first couple of times I got burned this way I got into the habit of saving presets before freezing.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bitflipper
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:11:29
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Sorry, SBM, we were both typing at the same time. So you're saying that after unfreezing the patch itself has changed?
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:12:04
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Good point. It is so random too. Some synths never have this problem, some do, sometimes its only certain patches... i can't find any rhyme or reason.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:13:02
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on the patch i gave, watch the Amp Release parameter having freezing.
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:50:47
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Okay, I just froze and unfroze about a dozen times with your preset as well as several others. All the envelope parameters, in fact all parameters I checked out, were identical. What IS different is when you unfreeze, if you had an envelope selected prior to saving, it won't return to the envelope that was selected prior to saving. For example if in your preset I select envelope 3, save, freeze, and then unfreeze, envelope 3 will not be selected; instead I'll see the envelope for the Amp.
Are you SURE actual parameters are changing, and not just the visuals because a different envelope has been selected? If so, then I need a recipe to reproduce because freezing/unfreezing is working as expected, unless you expect what you had selected prior to freezing to remain selected after freezing. As Bitflipper points out that may be a function of unloading the synth to save resources, which is the objective of freezing.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:52:31
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bitflipper
Sorry, SBM, we were both typing at the same time. So you're saying that after unfreezing the patch itself has changed?
Correct. The Amp release is very noticeable before and after a freeze with the patch I supplied
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:53:20
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Anderton
Okay, I just froze and unfroze about a dozen times with your preset as well as several others. All the envelope parameters, in fact all parameters I checked out, were identical. What IS different is when you unfreeze, if you had an envelope selected prior to saving, it won't return to the envelope that was selected prior to saving. For example if in your preset I select envelope 3, save, freeze, and then unfreeze, envelope 3 will not be selected; instead I'll see the envelope for the Amp.
Are you SURE actual parameters are changing, and not just the visuals because a different envelope has been selected? If so, then I need a recipe to reproduce because freezing/unfreezing is working as expected, unless you expect what you had selected prior to freezing to remain selected after freezing. As Bitflipper points out that may be a function of unloading the synth to save resources, which is the objective of freezing.
Oh I am very sure, it is changing the actual release time of the note. I will take a video of this, (but it will not have sound)... but I will show you shortly.
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:53:31
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A couple other things...I don't see any envelope assigned to filter in the modulation matrix. The amp envelope release stays constant at .08 seconds no matter how times I freeze or unfreeze...
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 12:59:55
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Here is the video: https://youtu.be/AMv5OCg1kVo It is clear the AMP Release knob is BELOW the 50% mark before the freeze, yet ABOVE it when unfreezing.
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 13:12:21
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Thanks for the video, I see what's happening. But I can't reproduce, and believe me, I've tried. What version of Z3TA+ 2 are you using? I'm testing with 2.2.3.43.
My spidey sense tells me this isn't a SONAR issue but a Z3TA+ 2 issue. Try setting the Amp release control to MIDI Learn, have it learn something, then tell it to forget...maybe the parameter needs to be reset in some way. I really can't think of anything else since I can't reproduce...sorry.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 13:16:43
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Thanks for checking this out!
Now you see I am not going nuts! lol
I am using Version 2.2.3 (not sure what is after the 2.2.3 - i am using the "About Page" to see this.)
I am unsure who's problem it is really. I have had this issue with other softsynths as well. It *MIGHT* have something to do with the way Sonar is freezing and unfreezing too.
Problem is, its not just the AMP Release...its many other parameters... some I can't even figure out.
Ive had this probem so many times over the years, it is so frustrating honestly. There are previous threads on the issue, none have ever come to a resolution.
How can I move this thread to the Bakery?
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 13:25:23
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No you're not crazy, but not being able to reproduce the problem means I don't have any more options. I also don't think Cakewalk will be able to do anything until they have something reproducible.
At this point probably the only way to get a resolution is to trim the project down to only the Z3TA+ 2 track, and see if the problem persists. If so, send the project to Cakewalk along with info on your OS and system. If it doesn't, then there's some kind of interaction going on, which really complicates troubleshooting. I guess at that point, CW would need the entire project to figure it out.
I don't think you can move a thread to the Bakery, it's a different platform. I was hoping the video would provide something that would give a hint on how to reproduce, but it seems like "what you see is what you get."
A thought - have you tested your RAM lately? I had a very similar problem with a Mac where calling up a file would have weirdnesses that I swear weren't there when I saved it. I tested the RAM and it checked out fine. But then a Mac-savvy person pointed out that the only correct way to test the RAM was from the Mac's command line interface. When I did, the test did indeed catch a bad RAM stick. After replacing it, the random weirdnesses disappeared.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 14:28:22
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Yea its really weird, I can't reproduce this in a brand new project!
I wonder if it is something to do with MIDI CC Data in other synth tracks.
Let me ask... if I have MIDI CC#58 say controlling something in another synth written in its own PRV controller lane, could that effect MIDI CC#58 in this Z3TA+2 instance?
Can MIDI CC# data from one track be controlling another?
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 14:29:01
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I will check RAM, but I've had issues like this on different machines. Plus I dont experience other weirdness, but you never know.
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gustabo
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 17:37:04
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SilverBlueMedallion
gustabo
Why aren't you saving the patch before freezing?
because I didn't expect the product to be broken and change my synth sounds.
anyway, actually I do all the time and it is annoying! How is that any sort of resolution?
It's time this gets FIXED.
It's a "cover your own @ss" resolution. I've had this happen before, but rarely and infrequently. Can't reproduce what you're experiencing so it's hard to fix what does appear to be broken without some regularity or accurate recipe.
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Win10 Pro x64 - StudioCat Platinum Studio DAW - 32 GB Ram - MOTU UltraLite-mk3
M-Audio Keystation 88ES - Akai MPD26 (hot-rodded) - Alesis DM10 - a few guitars, a few amps
Novation Launch Control - Korg nanoKONTROL2 - PreSonus FaderPort - DAW Remote HD on iPad
Adam A7X - Behritone C50A
PreSonus Monitor Station v2 (controlling the mons)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/sonarusergroup/
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Fabio Rubato
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 19:27:10
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I recently had a weird freezing issue with NI Pro Session Horns. I had initially froze it as it takes up an extraordinary amount of memory. On 16gbs of ram, I was up to 90%. So I froze and the next time I loaded the project, no sounds from it. I unfroze it and the re-froze it and it seems to be okay now...weird.
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Anderton
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 19:37:55
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I know people hate when I suggest workarounds, but...
Couldn't you render the audio rather than freeze, then archive the synth track? More work, but it would eliminate freezing as a problem.
And now I'm really grasping at straws, but what happens if you increase the latency? I had to bounce some Pro Tools stuff so I could create something suitable for SONAR, but had to increase latency to 1024 samples before it would bounce reliably.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 19:46:14
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Anderton
I know people hate when I suggest workarounds, but...
Couldn't you render the audio rather than freeze, then archive the synth track? More work, but it would eliminate freezing as a problem.
And now I'm really grasping at straws, but what happens if you increase the latency? I had to bounce some Pro Tools stuff so I could create something suitable for SONAR, but had to increase latency to 1024 samples before it would bounce reliably.
Yes I could render the audio, however, I may not be done with it. I can't commit my synth parts until ALL synth parts are recorded. I tried the latency test... didn't work.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: UnFreezing Synths - Messing Up Synth Sounds!
2016/12/17 22:01:44
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a little something of interest here...
it has NOTHING to do with freezing the track!
I just saved my project, re-opened it, and that AMP-release and other parameters are the way they are as if I froze it!
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