Helpful ReplyUsing a pen with Sonar

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dilletant
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2017/05/27 15:54:35 (permalink)

Using a pen with Sonar

I'm little confused about new feature using a pen. I don't have a pen, never used it before, although I tried simple stylus in PRV, it did not work. So, digital pen is not the same as stylus, right? There are so many of them on the market. Which model is good for Sonar? I'll appreciate any advice on what pen to choose and how to use it in PRV.
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Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/05/27 17:27:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jackson white 2017/06/13 15:09:35
There are 4 types.
 
1) capacitive variety.  This is a simple stick with a rubber like tip on it.  It acts just like a touch point and is not treated by the OS as a pen.
 
2) digitizer variety.  These only work on the system they came with.  Usually Wacom or N-Trig. An example is the Surface 3/4/Studio.. types of devices, etc.  Dell's Canvas uses a Wacom so you can draw right on screen.  
 
3) pen+pad devices that look similar to a track pad and come with a pen.  These do not work with the screen, but you draw on the pad.  Wacom and others.  Most don't require a battery nor do they require pairing with bluetooth.
 
4) bluetooth pens treated as touch devices.  These almost always require a battery and need to be paired with the OS.  So, for this category, ask the internet/forums what works with your particular computer/display.  Touch screen is required, and it may depend upon the driver support as to if the data is interpreted correctly as pen or not.  
 
So, likely the easiest aftermarket add is pen+pad style.  For #4 mileage may vary.
UPDATE: basically it seems the industry is moving away from type 4 because  they generally didn't perform well.  Besides the OS isn't seeing that as a native pen but a touch device plus some pressure info.
 
Here's an older article talking about the types.  Of course it mentions iPad so for PC use, definitely do your homework.
https://www.howtogeek.com...d-bluetooth-explained/
 
Keith
post edited by Keith Albright [Cakewalk] - 2017/06/13 15:35:19

Keith
#2
karhide
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/05/27 17:27:33 (permalink)
I'm not sure but I have tried the Surface Pen with the new version and it works well.  Takes a little bit of practice but lots better than last time I tried it. 

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Kamikaze
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/05/27 17:50:46 (permalink)
I use a Wacom pen and pad, it's three years old now, so a predecessor to this
http://www.wacom.com/en-us/products/pen-tablets/intuos
 
I don't use it for music, but I do really enjoy using it over a mouse for graphic work. The pad area is about A5, and reltes to the whole screen. When you use a mouse, the mouse pointer is relative to where the mouse where the mouse last was. So if you lift the mouse and place it accross you desk, the pointer on the screen stays in the same place. With a pad, the pad represents the whole screen, So if you pad is the equivalent of 45, but you screen is more like A3, it's scales. The top corners of teh pad are always the corners of the screen, and the middle of the pad is the middle of the screen. You have to learn the hand to eye coordination of looking at the screen and moving your hand (pen) around a different area (pad). When you get it it's well worth it, and graphic work is easier and more precises for it.
 
I think getting a pen and pad just for Sonar, is going to be hard work. I think the learning curve of a pen and pad is better overcome working on graphics. But if you have the hang of it, I can see it can possibly work well with sonar.
 
My music laptop is also touchscreen, but I don't have it enabled. I may have to get a stylus for it, it's been on my mind for a while. I guess there are styluses that respond to pressure sensitivity, as the screen isn't.

 
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dilletant
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/05/28 13:38:23 (permalink)
Keit, thank you for the explanation. My laptop is 3-year old Dell Inspiron with win 8.1 and touch screen. It looks like number 3 from your list is the only option for me since it's not brand/model specific. It is still uncertain whether it's possible to draw controller curves in PRV with pen and pad (which is why I'm interested in such devices in the first place). I tried simple stylus with rubber tip as a drawing tool but it did not work.
Kamikaze, you are probably right that getting writing device for such simple task is too much effort given that new Transform Tool allows to modify CC curves in various ways.
 
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/05/28 14:07:27 (permalink)
Any pen should be able to draw controller curves in the PRV or even for automation curves using the draw tool.

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tlw
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/05/28 14:22:29 (permalink)
I've used a series of Wacom tablets/pens for all kinds of things for years. I started originally using one for graphics work, but as they can also replace a mouse I got into the habit of using it for both functions when I've got the tablet plugged in. The basic Bamboo models aren't exactly high-end for graphics work but are fine even for photograph editing unless you need really detailed control over graphics things like shading or a larger area to work on for sketching/drawing.

They work pretty well as a substitute mouse, though I prefer a good touchpad for most non-graphics work because the pens and tablets don't cope quite as well with Windows/Mac gestures and after using the pen non-stop for an hour or so I find I'm getting writer's cramp. Which isn't a criticism of Wacom, I get cramp from any writing implement after a while.

A pen/tablet certainly works with Sonar's PRV, automation envelopes and anything else a mouse can do.

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dilletant
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/05/29 15:43:35 (permalink)
Thanks everyone for suggestions and info. After a trip to Best Buy yesterday I ended up home with Intuos Pen Tablet in my hands
It turned out, the biggest difference between pen and mouse is the cursor position, absolute and relative accordingly. You need some time to adopt your muscular memory.
I also tried the pen instead of midi keyboard in Sibelius for note entering with very good results.
 
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dilletant
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/05/31 00:56:18 (permalink)
Update.

=========

Very strange thing happening. If I have a controller lane, when I insert notes with the pen, at the same time some some controller events are created.
 

 
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tlw
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/05/31 02:04:41 (permalink)
My tablet's quite a bit older than the current Wacom range, and can be switched to use as a pen or a mouse using buttons on the pad or pen. Sometimes odd things happen if the tablet's in pen mode and the application expects a mouse....

Another possibility might be that something's going on between pen pressure and Windows/Sonar touch sensitivity. All I can say is I've not seen this problem, but that's where I'd start looking for answers. Might also ne worth checking Windows gesture settings in case your hand's brushing or resting on the tablet and sending out a bunch of unintentional commands.

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Bob Currie [Cakewalk]
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/01 12:47:25 (permalink)
Hi dilletant,
 
Coupled drawing mode is actually a feature that lets you draw mod-wheel, breath control, etc while your drawing notes.  In your case, if you have a mod-filter on CC11, or some other expressive control, you can hear it as you draw notes, which is pretty cool.  If you don't want to upset the existing controller data, select the velocity lane in the controller pane.  IOW, the pen will do "coupled-drawing" (via pen pressure) in whatever lane is highlighted in the controller pane.
 
FWIW, we're still getting our arms around how the pen could be used in SONAR.  Although pens have been around for a while, even Microsoft is still grappling with how they can and should be used in applications.  We're looking for everyone's feedback to help us put the necessary polish on this.  Let me know your thoughts.  Thanks!
 
~Bob
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tlw
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/01 20:29:23 (permalink)
Bob Currie [Cakewalk]
IOW, the pen will do "coupled-drawing" (via pen pressure) in whatever lane is highlighted in the controller pane.
 
FWIW, we're still getting our arms around how the pen could be used in SONAR.  Although pens have been around for a while, even Microsoft is still grappling with how they can and should be used in applications.



Pens, for me anyway, are useful in a couple of situations. The first is when you need pixel-level precision or close to it. They're easier to manoeuvre than a mouse for the same reason it's easier to write holding a pen in your fingers than it is to write with a sharpie glued to the palm of your hand.
 
This is particularly true on touch screens where it can be very difficult to only affect the pixels you want affected, fingers are blunt instruments for that kind of job.
 
The second situation kind of ties in with the first. Pens are pressure-sensitive, so pressure can be used to do things as well as positioning. The obvious use for this is in graphics applications, and I suppose might translate into a DAW by using pressure to e.g. define velocity while drawing notes. Trouble is pressure can be very difficult to apply absolutely consistently.
 
I agree MS (or Apple) have't really worked out what to do with the "third interface dimension" of pressure. Apple have pressure sensitive touchpads, and I'm using one at the moment, but uses for the pressure sensitivity in software are limited and the pad doesn't really replace a graphics tablet and pen for precise work. There's also the Apple pen for the iPad Pros but it's essentially still a graphics tool.
 
I guess what I'm saying is a pen would be very useful for touch-screen work for accuracy, but the role of a pressure function would have to be considered very carefully before activating it. Kind of how a very sensitive keyboard aftertouch can be a pain to work with because it's too difficult not to send aftertouch when you don't intend to.

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Zargg
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/01 21:10:44 (permalink)

Ken Nilsen
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w.joyce
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/02 10:21:47 (permalink)
I have ben looking for a pen or stylus for my hanns g ht231 touchscreen but I'm having trouble. is there pens or stylus that work with all win 10 touch devices? I have a cheap one but it wont let me add notes or draw automation in the prv.
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dilletant
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/03 10:36:58 (permalink)
OMG this forum is awesome. Where else a developer himself reads your posts and answers you directly?! I'm thrilled.
 
Bob, thank you for clarification. So, this is a feature, not a bug. Well, at least for me, it does not seem very practical... in the matter of fact, I find it almost impossible to draw notes AND desired CC curve in one go. You end up editing CC curve after that anyway.
 
However, I found that if you don't apply any pressure while drawing notes, then no controller events are created.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/03 11:56:38 (permalink)
Bob Currie [Cakewalk]
...Coupled drawing mode is actually a feature that lets you draw mod-wheel, breath control, etc while your drawing notes...  ...If you don't want to upset the existing controller data, select the velocity lane in the controller pane.  IOW, the pen will do "coupled-drawing" (via pen pressure) in whatever lane is highlighted in the controller pane...  
 
...Let me know your thoughts.  Thanks!
 
~Bob




Hi Bob, 
 I have been using Wacom "pen" tablets as my exclusive H.I.D.s from before the time I got my first Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 license through to the present time. Pressure sensitivity is not always beneficial, and the technology has always seemed to be crude in its capability to interpret nuanced levels of input.
 
 Is it possible to simply turn "coupled drawing mode off" in the PRV when it is not desirable?
 
 Thank you.


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tlw
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/03 15:20:07 (permalink)
Is it possible to turn off your animated avatar? Seriously. I don't mean to be rude but it's really distracting and glaring. Makes it much harder to read the entire page.

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bwbalint
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/03 18:26:40 (permalink)
So I see there are a number of Wacom pen/pad options. Any advice on which would be most adequate for Sonar Plt. Right now I don't see doing much high end graphics. Thanks !

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dilletant
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/04 14:55:17 (permalink)
Seem like I found a bug.
1. Start new project.
2. Create MIDI track.
3. Open PRV.
4. Using a pen, draw few notes.
5. Move the cursor to the velocity pane.
The cursor turns into resize tool and you can't edit velocities anymore. Close and reopen PRV, and it works normally until you draw another note, then it happens again.
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pwalpwal
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/04 15:44:13 (permalink)
tlw
Is it possible to turn off your animated avatar? Seriously. I don't mean to be rude but it's really distracting and glaring. Makes it much harder to read the entire page.

i just used an adblocker to block it

just a sec

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dilletant
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/12 01:57:24 (permalink)
Latest update, 23.5.0 build 32.
The bug is still here.
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scook
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Re: Using a pen with Sonar 2017/06/12 02:32:12 (permalink)
That makes sense, there has been no update in the last week. The books are probably closed on 2017.05.
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