Mosvalve
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 20:53:31
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I think you can get this effect just by adjusting the decay or similar parameter on your delay.
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 21:46:59
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Jeff Evans
Firstly using a compressor to be sidechained and controlling the output of a delay is a very usable technique and it can be done. Gating is definitely not the correct effect to use in this situation.
FYI, pumping sidechained vocals? lol.. here's a sound on sound article that verifies my assessment. gate is correct: http://www.soundonsound.c...es/advancedreverb2.asp Scroll down to where they describe the technique.. Cheers Edit = Linear Phase is now batting .385!! FTW
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dontletmedrown
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/19 22:09:24
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Lots of ways to skin the cat. This thread could have been over after post #2 assuming everything was routed correctly. Personally I'd prolly just automate the spots that annoyed me, but lets try and think of 928427 other ways :P
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vaultwit
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 03:49:18
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Linear Phase
Jeff Evans
Firstly using a compressor to be sidechained and controlling the output of a delay is a very usable technique and it can be done. Gating is definitely not the correct effect to use in this situation.
FYI, pumping sidechained vocals? lol.. here's a sound on sound article that verifies my assessment. gate is correct: http://www.soundonsound.c...es/advancedreverb2.asp
Scroll down to where they describe the technique..
Cheers
Edit = Linear Phase is now batting .385!! FTW
I don't think you are understanding my original question if you think Gate is correct. I want lower the volume of the wet delay signal while the main vocals are playing, similar to lower the volume of the bass when the kick is playing. Or lower the volume of background music while a radio DJ is talking. So basically, the wet delay signal itself (not with the dry vocal) is the thing that is being "ducked" or "pumped." A gate opens/closes and either lets sound in or out. That is not what I'm trying to achieve. Hope this clears things up
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 04:02:54
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Except that the type of gate that Linear Phase is referring to in the Sound on Sound article is actually a good one and OK. Normally a gate is either open or closed and that is what I meant too by that type of gate being not suitable. But some gates also allow some of the signal through even when they are closed. ie they have a range. So they have a setting which is not completely silent but the signal can be set at a lower level and hence still get through. But also you must be able to reverse the situation ie when the vocal line is present you want the gate to go into a low level mode and when the vocals are not present the gate lets all the signal through. It will require a slightly tricky gate that has these features. (normally it is the other way around ie when vocal signal is present the gate lets all the signal through but that is not what you want) The Sonitus gate can do all these things. Just set the range to some value rather than - Inf and use ducking mode rather than normal mode. The compressor however will do all of that naturally and you already have them too.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/10/20 04:39:51
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STinGA
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 04:55:12
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And if you have it the pro channel gate/expander has exactly this ... A range button.
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 09:05:07
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vaultwit
I don't think you are understanding my original question if you think Gate is correct. I want lower the volume of the wet delay signal while the main vocals are playing, similar to lower the volume of the bass when the kick is playing.
If we can open our minds a little, to the fact that there might be other very practiced producers here, we might learn something. There are reasons, "specifically as they pertain to vocals," as to why I would not do this with a sidechain compressor. And FYI Daft Punk used Gates to duck their bass. 1. If you do this with a gate you do not need to clone a vocal track. 2. If you do this with a gate you can avoid all kinds of pumping reverb issues. I know you are talking about, "delay," but its a spacial time fx just like reverb vaultwit
Or lower the volume of background music while a radio DJ is talking. So basically, the wet delay signal itself (not with the dry vocal) is the thing that is being "ducked" or "pumped." A gate opens/closes and either lets sound in or out. That is not what I'm trying to achieve. Hope this clears things up Where on earth did you get that from? Wikipedia? Are we talking about mixing music and producing in Sonar, or are we talking about Broadcasting on an FM Radio Station? When you are mixing music in Sonar, you do not need another audio source, "coming through the channel," to duck the channel. When you are broadcasting in a Radio station you have two audio sources.. T Yes you can duck with sidechain compressors. But in terms of your specific question, "I want my delay louder as the vocals drop," I believe the correct answer is gate. In this situation, that is the answer.
post edited by Linear Phase - 2012/10/20 18:13:59
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 09:50:37
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A gate can do it for sure but so can also a compressor. You do not need to clone any vocal track. It is as simple as setting up the delay as a side chain effect on a separate buss and inserting the compressor after the delay and side chaining the compressor from the vocal track. Pumping effects can be avoided, it is simply a matter of setting up the compressor correctly which is something some may find difficult to do. It is a bit unusual in the way you have to think of what the compressor is doing compared to what a compressor does normally. Compressors can be hard enough to get right but in a ducking situation they can be a little illusive or harder. You are not hearing it directly but rather it is controlling some other aspect to the vocal sound. And this compressor of course is separate to the actual vocal compressor that you also my be using. There are several ways to do it. This effect is definitely not restricted to one method only. Both the gate and ducking compressor are more automatic type of effects that you can set and leave but automating either the send to the delay or the delay return will give a finer degree of control. It is just that you have to put more time into it. The concept of the music ducking under a DJ's voice is also very relevant and extremely useful. As a teacher of sound engineering we get students to practice the music ducking under voice first before we let them loose on other side chaining activities. It is good because the two things (voice and music) are so different and it is easier to hear how the music ducks away, how far down it ducks and how it comes back. With practice it is possible to get it sounding very smooth and effective.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/10/20 10:09:47
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bitflipper
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 10:35:08
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Has anyone mentioned any of the so-called "self-ducking delays" that are available? Here's a free one.
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 10:53:07
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Side chain compression is wrong. If vocal is track 1, delay is on bus C... And you route the track one to the input of the side chain you will get no audio.. You need another routed to the bus itself
I'm at work... I'll argue bout this more in six hours
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 10:57:13
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Part of audio routed that is... I'm typing on my iPhone, I'll get back to this later
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 10:59:36
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Linear Phase
Side chain compression is wrong. If vocal is track 1, delay is on bus C... And you route the track one to the input of the side chain you will get no audio.. You need another routed to the bus itself
I'm at work... I'll argue bout this more in six hours
A compressor being controlled by a side chain from the vocal track will most definitely do the job. The post I made at #2 is still the way to go if you want to do this on the fly. Note the side chain is from a send not the track output. I personally would still use an envelope, but if the ducking method is used setting up the release will be the hardest thing to get right as you'll want the delay back up to volume almost as soon and possibly a shade before the dry vocal has stopped.
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 11:08:48
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Ok.. But I can admit I'm wrong.. Just put an x1 project file on box.net for me plz..
Gotta go
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tunekicker
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 14:27:49
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The Sonitus Gate has a "Duck" mode that could work well for this. You just place it after the delay on a delay bus and send the vocal to the sidechain input of the Gate. This way the delay volume is lowered every time the volume of the singer is louder than the threshold. This is similar to using a compressor in side-chain mode. I would experiment with both to find the right result.
However, I often find the Sonitus Gate is less transparent than compression, so I tend to use it when I want the change in volume to be accentuate the rhythm of the track, and use side-chained compression otherwise.
Peace,
Tunes
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 17:31:53
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tunekicker
I would experiment with both to find the right result.
Tunekicker I am not singling you out here.. I said, "after work, I would come back and make a last response to the thread. Cool? This is what I suggest everybody does. Put a vocal on Audio Track 1. Put a delay on Bus C. Put any sidechaine comp, "on bus c," after the delay.. Now route Audio Track 1 to the input of the comp. What do you hear? No sound..
That's why I have been saying, "gate is the way to go." Ok everybody, lets move on now.. Cheers!!  
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 17:43:52
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I get a very strong feeling that LinearPhase does not even know the basic sidechain principles.
Compressor is one way to go. Here is the signal flow.
Vocal track as normal and set its output to normal output (ie Masterbuss or a vocal buss) So now we hear the vocal as normal.
Create a buss and insert a delay on that buss and set it to 100% wet.
Create s SEND on the vocal track and send the vocal signal now into the delay buss. We now hear delay on the vocals as one would expect.
Insert compressor over the delay on the delay buss after the delay.
Set that compressor now to receive the vocal signal and put it into sidechain mode.
Vocal will now control the amount of delay you are hearing. When vocal signal is present delay compressor operates and ducks the delay signal down. When vocal signal is not present delay compressor returns to normal and lets last words of vocal be delayed and turned up as a result.
Linear you are wrong and need to really digest this, set this up and play with it and then move on!
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 17:49:12
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Jeff Evans
I get a very strong feeling that LinearPhase does not even know the basic sidechain principles.
Compressor is one way to go. Here is the signal flow.
Vocal track as normal and set its output to normal output (ie Masterbuss or a vocal buss) So now we hear the vocal as normal.
Create a buss and insert a delay on that buss and set it to 100% wet.
Create s SEND on the vocal track and send the vocal signal now into the delay buss. We now hear delay on the vocals as one would expect.
Insert compressor over the delay on the delay buss after the delay.
Set that compressor now to receive the vocal signal and put it into sidechain mode.
Vocal will now control the amount of delay you are hearing. When vocal signal is present delay compressor operates and ducks the delay signal down. When vocal signal is not present delay compressor returns to normal and lets last words of vocal be delayed and turned up as a result.
Linear you are wrong and need to really digest this, set this up and play with it and then move on!
Ok!! Finally.. I can admit I was incorrect. IF you could have just explained that on page 1, we could have gotten to this a lot sooner.. I get it now... Audio Track 1 is routed to the send, and the send of audio track 1 is routed to the sidechain compressor? hmmm.. Interesting, ok, I will check it out... I know how to use sidechain compression, but I do not know everything about it... I do not know everything.. And nobody was explaining how to do this precisely with just the compression. Now you have.. Ok.. Lets move on then Cheers Edit = what did not occur to me, is you could route 1 track, both ways like this.. that is really interesting!!
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 17:58:07
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I am glad you got it Linear. Where Karl went wrong in post #2 was he failed to mention where the vocal track was also output and that was to its normal output as usual so one can hear it.
He said this:
Set up a delay 100% wet on a buss, send the lead vocal to it.
He implied in his post #2 that the vocal was sent or output to the delay buss which it is not. Vocal track needs to be output as normal so you hear it as normal. A send needs to be created on the vocal track and sent to the delay buss. That was what he meant of course. One has to be clear with any choice of words otherwise things can easily be misinterpreted.
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tunekicker
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 18:05:52
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Tunekicker I am not singling you out here.. I said, "after work, I would come back and make a last response to the thread. No offense taken. I don't mind being singled out if I'm wrong. My post was a bit unclear. Assuming you already have an audio track, already have a bus for delay, and already have a send from the audio track to the delay bus, inserting a side-chain capable compressor or ducking gate and then sending another send from the audio track to the side-chain input should work as desired. Side-chaining requires two things- the audio signal that is meant to be affected and heard, and the audio signal that is meant to trigger the affect. You are correct- without an audio send to the bus itself you would hear no sound (unless the listen function is enabled on the side-chained device, but there would be no point to doing this here.) Sometimes I use the side-chained gate after reverb or delay trick myself, for the opposite affect- I only want the delay to happen when the vocal is in the midst of a phrase, and don't want delay tails hanging out after the vocal is done. Separating the audio signal and trigger signal out, there are essentially 3 useful options: 1. Gate before delay, non side-chained. The gate responds to the dry signal and affects the dry signal, which is then sent to the delay. No trigger signal is present. Delay tails would decay naturally. 2. Gate after delay, non side-chained. The gate responds to the wet signal and affects the wet signal. No trigger signal is present. Delay tails would be cut of when their level drops below the gate's threshold. 3. Gate after delay, side-chain turned on, with audio routed directly to the bus and to the gate's sidechain input. The gate responds to the dry signal (trigger) but affects the wet signal (audio.) Delay tails would be cut off as soon as the vocal stops (with the attack time as a buffer.) This can be fun to have an affected vocal track that doesn't have delay tails that hang out when the vocalist stops singing. Peace, Tunes
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/20 18:19:03
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Linear one thing this discussion has brought to light for me is that yes the gate can be used as well. Simply substitute it for the compressor. Set the gate so some signal still gets through when the gate is closed. But in this mode the gate still needs to be set to work the other way around. (ie normal mode means the delays will get through loud when the vocal is present you need to use the gate in duck mode instead) The Sonitus gate can do all of these things. I would be more inclined to go for the compressor but after this discussion I might try the gate instead. Although it is interesting that tunekicker has mentioned he prefers the sound of the compressor over the gate which means there must be a difference. I think it comes down to what you prefer here. tunekicker also mentioned in his post the gate closing off quickly hence the delays shutting off fast but they can also slowly fade away as the gate closes. If the gate has a release time then it is possible to get the gate to close slowly rather than instantly creating the effect that the delay tails are going away slowly. In fact it is in this mode that the gate release time can be used to control the reverb time you are hearing if you are using reverb ambience instead of delay. You can use the gate release time to alter the apparent reverb time eg make a reverb shorter from a longer reverb. A gate also can create a slightly different reverb decay envelope too that normal reverbs may not give you. Many do not know all the gate parameters that are available. It pays to sit down with the gate on any material eg kick or snare etc and fiddle with ALL the parameters that many gates have to offer. We tend to use gates as either an ON/OFF thing but they are capable of much more than that.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/10/21 00:26:47
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/21 01:53:44
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LOL..... reading back through this I was just about to respond to Linear Phase's "had that been mentioned on page 1" and refer back to my post#2 and then read Jeff's post. I guess I should have been a little clearer but it never really occurred to me that the "send the lead vocal to it" would be interpreted as anything else other than a send but I can see if one doesn't already know how to set up a sidehain it could be misconstrued. I'll edit my post to make it clearer for anyone that ever finds this thread via a search. By the way if you have stumbled across this thread via a search please PM me with details on how to get the search to work.
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joel77
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/21 08:12:53
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Very informative thread, gentlemen. You've given me some additional side chaining ideas. Thank you!
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/21 08:43:32
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the delay on the delay buss after the dela FastBikerBoy
LOL..... reading back through this I was just about to respond to Linear Phase's "had that been mentioned on page 1" and refer back to my post#2 and then read Jeff's post.
I guess I should have been a little clearer but it never really occurred to me that the "send the lead vocal to it" would be interpreted as anything else other than a send but I can see if one doesn't already know how to set up a sidehain it could be misconstrued.
I'll edit my post to make it clearer for anyone that ever finds this thread via a search. By the way if you have stumbled across this thread via a search please PM me with details on how to get the search to work.
Hey.. :-) What was unclear to me, was that the vocal on track 1, was sent to both the compressor, and the main bus.. that is what totally confused... because in my mind the option was either, "the comp, or the main input of the bus," and not both... :P But I get it now, and as Jeff suggested, I've been playing around with it.. and wow!!! Its a damn cool production teqnique.. Its really cool sounding!! So thank you to everyone!!!!! And @ Jeff Evans and tunekicker, I would have responded to you guys more last night, but I was just beat tired... Cheers Edit = "What a gem, what a gem!! OMG, this is A-MAZING!! I've always wanted to get this whole ordeal, I did not know how to get it!! Here is my wav.. These are female music radar samples, and the ProChannel Compressor, and a little Quad Curve EQ on the Bus that is sidechained!! https://www.box.com/s/w6xlonb9mcrhe53qit8x Totally awesome.. oh, and just the Sonitus Verb, incase anybody wants to know the verb too...
post edited by Linear Phase - 2012/10/21 09:08:57
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pwal
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/21 11:05:08
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/21 16:38:07
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LinearPhase that is a great vocal example and using side chain compression. (Who is that chick singer! ) And I really like the grainy-ness of the reverb too. I have been reading an interesting article in a great Australian mag about using reverbs and it is good to use cheaper lesser quality more grainy sounding reverbs sometimes in your mixes rather than big expensive sounding smooth reverbs. The more grainy reverbs can actually fit into a mix better and the brain is also rather good at smoothing out the reverbs a bit. Also the room you are listening to them also sort of smooths things out by adding its own reverb into the reverb you are using in your mix. There are only so many expensive lush reverbs you can have in your mix at any one time. One preferably. Sidechain compressing all reverbs to a certain extent is a fantastic way to keep them all under control especially while the parts that are feeding them are present. The mix can sort of go from dry to wetter and back again.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Linear Phase
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/21 17:04:09
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Jeff Evans
LinearPhase that is a great vocal example and using side chain compression. (Who is that chick singer!) And I really like the grainy-ness of the reverb too. I have been reading an interesting article in a great Australian mag about using reverbs and it is good to use cheaper lesser quality more grainy sounding reverbs sometimes in your mixes rather than big expensive sounding smooth reverbs.
The more grainy reverbs can actually fit into a mix better and the brain is also rather good at smoothing out the reverbs a bit. Also the room you are listening to them also sort of smooths things out by adding its own reverb into the reverb you are using in your mix. There are only so many expensive lush reverbs you can have in your mix at any one time. One preferably.
Sidechain compressing all reverbs to a certain extent is a fantastic way to keep them all under control especially while the parts that are feeding them are present. The mix can sort of go from dry to wetter and back again.
Hi Jeff Evans, I don't know who the girl is.. Maybe you can hunt the name down? http://www.musicradar.com...ample-downloads-217833 http://mos.futurenet.com/...male-vocal-samples.zip The bottom is the direct link, and the top is the story behind the link... I really like grainy, older reverbs too btw.. Thanks for the help and insight in the thread Cheers Ps.. The second link is 426 megabytes, just fyi to anybody who is about to click... make sure you the time/fast connection
too many lasers... Sonar = audio editing ninja of a music software!
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fitzj
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/21 17:19:29
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What am I doing wrong? 1. Vocal track going to master bus 2. Bus with sonitus delay setup at 100% wet 3. Sonitus compressor after delay on bus 4. Output of sonitus compressor set to sidechain. 5. Send on vocal track going to sonitus compressor sidechain I see no activity on the sonitus compressor or the sonitus delay,?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/21 17:54:41
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It'll probably work better with the compressor before the delay as you'll be ducking the signal fed to the delay rather than the signal coming out of the delay. I think the problem may be you have no audio signal going to the bus. The output to the sidechain doesn't count as that doesn't go anywhere, once it reaches the compressor to trigger that it's the end of the road for that signal. The compressor isn't compressing as there's no signal to compress even though the sidechain is doing it's job. Insert another send to the buss from the track and I'm sure you'll then see it working. I've just edit my post#2 (again) to make that clear. When I answered the OP he stated he already had a send to the buss set up hence I didn't include that step. My original suggestion was an add on to his steps. Sorry for any confusion...
post edited by FastBikerBoy - 2012/10/21 18:10:43
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vaultwit
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/21 23:47:38
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So basically the solution to my problem was at FastBikerBoy and Jeff Evans described, with a dedicate bus containing a delay set to 100% wet and a sidechain compressor immiediately after. Now the problem is, my primary delay effect (z3ta+ effect) cannot be set to 100% wet... the dry is fixed, and you can only adjust the wet. Anyone know if there IS a way to set z3ta+ to 100% wet?? Or if there is a free delay VST out there that can do multiple simultaneous delays (which is why I use z3ta+)??
Sonar X1 Producer Expanded 64-bit Computer: Intel Core i7-3770 3.4Ghz, 8GB RAM, Windows 8 Interface: Focusrite Scarlett 2i2
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fitzj
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Re:Using sidechain compression to "duck" the vocal delay while main vocal is playing?
2012/10/22 05:28:29
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FastBikerBoy
It'll probably work better with the compressor before the delay as you'll be ducking the signal fed to the delay rather than the signal coming out of the delay.
I think the problem may be you have no audio signal going to the bus. The output to the sidechain doesn't count as that doesn't go anywhere, once it reaches the compressor to trigger that it's the end of the road for that signal.
The compressor isn't compressing as there's no signal to compress even though the sidechain is doing it's job.
Insert another send to the buss from the track and I'm sure you'll then see it working.
I've just edit my post#2 (again) to make that clear. When I answered the OP he stated he already had a send to the buss set up hence I didn't include that step. My original suggestion was an add on to his steps. Sorry for any confusion...
Still not getting it to work Insert another send to the buss from the track and I'm sure you'll then see it working. Is that additional test send going to the side-chain compressor as well or straight to the bus
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