Helpful ReplyVideo in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps

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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 18:14:10 (permalink)
Oh now Sonar is being consumed by Apple!!!
Only kidding, glad we've got that codec, nice...
 
Cheers...

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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#31
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 18:19:05 (permalink)
Anderton
Haven't installed D yet but will when I get back to the studio. I've done over a thousand videos so I have plenty of source material to try. I'll likely continue to use Vegas for video, but I do find Sonar very convenient for doing soundtracks while referencing picture...especially with Acidized files to line up with hit points.


Craig we have to get you on the beta :)
Please let us know how it fares with your videos. So far the videos I know of that don't work are type1 dv avi, sorenson and cinepak. The latter are because these are legacy codecs that don't exist in mf. For codecs to work in mf they have to be coded as dmo's. Fortunately the modern formats like h264 are supported. Even apple appears to be favoring h264 these days as their QuickTime pages suggest.

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#32
Jimbo 88
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 18:34:01 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Can you please make some samples of the files that won't load available? Do those same files playback in Media player?
Also please test switching back to the DShow engine using the link I posted above. If the file uses custom codecs that aren't available to MF it won't load using the new engine and will require switching to DShow. Codecs are exactly like plugins - if the video used a codec in Directshow that isn't available to MF it will not load. 
In a future update we may try and make the switching more seamless. BTW the new engine is not a quickfix. Its a full rewrite of the video engine using a completely different technology from Directshow. Some teething problems are inevitable but it has significant benefits for the more modern formats that were not supported in DShow.


Hey Noel,   Sorry, I'm not allowed to send anyone my clients files.  I can tell you that they are Mpeg-1s and do playback in Windows Media Player.  As far as a "quickfix", you misunderstood me...I meant, "the fix for this issue is easy and quick  for me".
I think once I adapt to the new video engine I will like it.
 

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#33
markyzno
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 18:35:16 (permalink)
*sigh*
 
I shall roll back to X3c and follow the forum as to when Sonar ACTUALLY address using this software in a professional manner within post production in the film industry.
 
I WILL NOT start using a second rate bit calculator to export my projects to clients, life is far too short and Video software does a far better job at exporting video and I can now easily hop to other freeware to remarry my audio to video.
 
Quite sincerely, this is an awful job at "vast video improvements", obviously I wont jump ship from my fave and one and only DAW but simply, as far as dealing with video this update is a complete let down for those of us that have to deal with PT as a necessary evil.
 
Sonar, you have alot to learn.
 
Thanks for your comments Noel, but this update clearly hasnt been tested in TRUE TERMS deliverables. The fact that you guys didnt know that MOV H264 worked prior to X3d is a bit...well....wow!

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Sound Design on IMDB --
 
#34
markyzno
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 18:39:48 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Anderton
Haven't installed D yet but will when I get back to the studio. I've done over a thousand videos so I have plenty of source material to try. I'll likely continue to use Vegas for video, but I do find Sonar very convenient for doing soundtracks while referencing picture...especially with Acidized files to line up with hit points.


Craig we have to get you on the beta :)
Please let us know how it fares with your videos. So far the videos I know of that don't work are type1 dv avi, sorenson and cinepak. The latter are because these are legacy codecs that don't exist in mf. For codecs to work in mf they have to be coded as dmo's. Fortunately the modern formats like h264 are supported. Even apple appears to be favoring h264 these days as their QuickTime pages suggest.



 
I offered to beta for you...thus far this year I have put out a Feature film and 7 shorts all in Sonar....The feature has worldwide distribution (X2a) and the 7 shorts (X2-X3)...

Thankfully I am now taking time off for the family for Christmas and wont be back at work until the new year on another feature......IF I had a feature on now with X3d I would be crapping my pants and on to PT 10.3.6 (which I loathe)

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Sound Design on IMDB --
 
#35
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 18:41:48 (permalink)
Did you actually read what I wrote above? There is no need to go back to x3c because x3d also supports the dshow engine.
And on a clean system without 3rd party codecs h264 will *not*work in directshow.

Noel Borthwick
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#36
markyzno
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 18:44:24 (permalink)
Yes, I read the above...and I have changed engines back and forth twice in the config file and its still naffed (did you NOT read my previous posts Mr QC?)
 
I AM NOT going to reinstall my entire system for a bogus first attempt at a "video update"
 
*edit* also IF I uninstall previous codecs and go for Sonar as my GO TO export how do I know if ALL my hops to various exports of video wont be broken? How in gods name was this QC'd exactly? Under what environment? This is the most useless update of Sonar I have ever had...In terms of audio, everytime the updates are amazing but this is some half cocked, untested and quite frankly useless amateur hour update of Sonar (for me in Post Production) I have ever witnessed.... Thank Christ I dont have a client down tomorrow.
 
...meh, very disgruntled...
post edited by markyzno - 2013/12/17 18:51:54

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Sound Design on IMDB --
 
#37
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 18:54:46 (permalink)
I suggest making a call to support to get to the bottom of your issue. Switching to direct show should be 100% identical to x3c. No needto reinstall anything on your system.
I understand your frustration but it isn't going to help you or us resolve the issue without more detailed info.
Btw you can verify the current engine mode in the video properties dialog. If it says media foundation then it's not switched to directshow.

Noel Borthwick
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#38
markyzno
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 18:56:13 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I suggest making a call to support to get to the bottom of your issue. Switching to direct show should be 100% identical to x3c. I understand your frustration but it isn't going to help you or us resolve the issue without more detailed info.
Btw you can verify the current engine mode in the video properties dialog. If it says media foundation then it's not switched to directshow.



Thanks for your kind offer, but i'll sort it out myself and report back here.

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Sound Design on IMDB --
 
#39
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 18:59:58 (permalink)
Jimbo 88
Hey Noel,   Sorry, I'm not allowed to send anyone my clients files.  I can tell you that they are Mpeg-1s and do playback in Windows Media Player.  As far as a "quickfix", you misunderstood me...I meant, "the fix for this issue is easy and quick  for me".I think once I adapt to the new video engine I will like it. 


I understand. Sorry for misunderstanding.
Media player falls back to directshow which could explain why. If you can find a similar mpeg1 let me know. We'll also try and replicate this.

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#40
gswitz
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 19:19:51 (permalink)
markyzno
...meh, very disgruntled...



Sorry to hear it Markyzno.
 
As usual, I'm pretty gruntled myself. :-)

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#41
Splat
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 19:23:14 (permalink)
At least people are listening...  The interaction has been great...

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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gswitz
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 20:18:24 (permalink)
Noel,
 
If I understand correctly, it is possible to get AAF working correctly with a codec we buy from somewhere. This is new right? I think that we couldn't do that before X3d... ?

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#43
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 22:00:54 (permalink)
In retrospect AAF it seems like it is intended as an interchange format between different video editing systems - it uses structured storage internally. As such its not likely to be a good format for streaming and its unlikely you will find a source codec for it. I don't know a whole lot about it but I assume a host would need to unpack an AAF file and write to a new format more suitable for streaming. Microsoft would be unlikely to support it out of the box in Media Foundation.
 

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#44
cparmerlee
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 22:15:48 (permalink)
markyzno
I am going to have to roll back to that since now X3d wont load up half my video projects anymore



I don't believe that is necessary.  See
http://www.cakewalk.com/S...reader.aspx/2007013354

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Splat
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 22:18:48 (permalink)
cparmerlee
markyzno
I am going to have to roll back to that since now X3d wont load up half my video projects anymore



I don't believe that is necessary.  See
http://www.cakewalk.com/S...reader.aspx/2007013354



Craig please see the third line of the very first post :) Cheers...

Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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#46
cparmerlee
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 22:26:03 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
cparmerlee
markyzno
I am going to have to roll back to that since now X3d wont load up half my video projects anymore



I don't believe that is necessary.  See
http://www.cakewalk.com/S...reader.aspx/2007013354



Craig please see the third line of the very first post :) Cheers...


Yes, I saw that, but it appeared to me all the complaints were about the Media Foundation, so I don't understand why it should be necessary to roll back to X3C.  The Cakewalk article implies that if you select DirectShow, you will have the same capability as in X3C.  Is the Cakewalk article incorrect?

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#47
Splat
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 22:31:11 (permalink)
#38

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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cparmerlee
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 22:34:10 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
#38


Thanks.  I missed that one.  But just to be clear, Noel is saying the same thing I am -- that there should be no reason to roll back to X3C.  Correct?



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#49
Splat
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 22:38:02 (permalink)
Seems to be, but I got confused later in the thread on if there is an issue or not... I'm staying out now of this one as I'm not contributing much, just a keen observer.... Cheers :-)

Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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dubdisciple
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 22:43:01 (permalink)
Mark..have . You checked to see if it is a codec conflict yet?
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SuperG
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/17 23:08:42 (permalink)
Well, for all the complaints with nasty adjectives, I'd like to suggest that it is 'best practice' to export time stamped BW, and match that up in in a video editor. Otherwise, I'd suggest just handing the client the BW.
 
Don't get me wrong...
 
The ability to import video into Sonar is a very welcome feature. The ability to export video from Sonar is really handy for a one-off knock outs. I don't expect neither DirectShow nor MediaFoundation to be broadcast ready, nor do I have a problem with that, nor Sonar using it. 
 
I would think that clients contracting for a score, get just that - a time stamped music track, and maybe a reference only video with a music track applied (as a suggested mix) by the composer. The client is going to import the music track in their video edit system anyway.
 
Now, if somebody is expecting a scored and finished video, trusting you to compose a music track, mix it together with any video audio, and produce a finished video product, you're talking a while 'nother animal, because you're talking about a two more workflows than you agreed to. You might just be leaving money on the table.
 
You can certainly ask for a specific format for you to score to. Of course, if the client insists on giving you a format that isn't easily supported by Sonar (and using .mov's on a PC certainly qualifies), you have an opportunity to charge a tad extra for conversion. It's certainly not an unreasonable thing, the client is just as capable of doing that as you are, and he may save himself a few bucks by doing it himself. If he is imperious, does not want to give you a format you can work with, it is more than likely he can easily afford a conversion charge - getting your way cost money and he's used to it.
 
 

laudem Deo
#52
dubdisciple
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/18 01:09:50 (permalink)
For anyone else who has installed codec paks, these tools may help you to sort potential conflicts:
 
http://www.raymond.cc/blo...y-removing-bad-codecs/
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SuperG
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/18 02:07:40 (permalink)
dubdisciple
For anyone else who has installed codec paks, these tools may help you to sort potential conflicts:
 
http://www.raymond.cc/blo...y-removing-bad-codecs/




+1

laudem Deo
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Biscuits
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/18 02:20:55 (permalink)
Ok, here's a new one...
Just working on some SFX cutting in x3d and I'm noticing that the timecode in the video window is not matching the timecode in the transport; frames are being skipped and not lining up correctly.  The difference is never more than 2 frames, but those 2 frames can be crucial.
The issue is worse with H264 but still there with AVI.  It almost seems like it's getting confused with dropframe vs ndf?
The video properties also show (confirmed) 29.97 videos as 29.96, if that's a clue...
Any one else experiencing this?
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markyzno
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/18 05:48:00 (permalink)
gswitz
Noel,
 
If I understand correctly, it is possible to get AAF working correctly with a codec we buy from somewhere. This is new right? I think that we couldn't do that before X3d... ?


Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
In retrospect AAF it seems like it is intended as an interchange format between different video editing systems - it uses structured storage internally. As such its not likely to be a good format for streaming and its unlikely you will find a source codec for it. I don't know a whole lot about it but I assume a host would need to unpack an AAF file and write to a new format more suitable for streaming. Microsoft would be unlikely to support it out of the box in Media Foundation.
 





Correct. AAF works almost exactly the same as OMF, you unpack it. I *think* AAF just has added avid compatibility support....

As with OMF's you'll get them from your Video Editor and then you unpack the project so you can work on the sound edit / score /design etc

One thing I have noticed as it goes with OMF's in Sonar is that Sonar wont read fades on clips  whereas Pro Tools does. This would be a nice feature in Sonar as currently I have to unpack the OMF in PT and then export the stems / tracks into Sonar and work from there. Slightly annoying... I'll fire in a feature request.

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#56
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/18 07:29:56 (permalink)
Biscuits
Ok, here's a new one...
Just working on some SFX cutting in x3d and I'm noticing that the timecode in the video window is not matching the timecode in the transport; frames are being skipped and not lining up correctly.  The difference is never more than 2 frames, but those 2 frames can be crucial.
The issue is worse with H264 but still there with AVI.  It almost seems like it's getting confused with dropframe vs ndf?
The video properties also show (confirmed) 29.97 videos as 29.96, if that's a clue...
Any one else experiencing this?


We have a bug in our system concerning this but could you please also file a problem report detailing this as clearly as possible. It will be important to include a link sample video to replicate since often these issues can be related to a specific format. It may turn out that the issue is not format related however.

Noel Borthwick
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#57
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/18 07:38:30 (permalink)
markyzno
 
One thing I have noticed as it goes with OMF's in Sonar is that Sonar wont read fades on clips  whereas Pro Tools does. This would be a nice feature in Sonar as currently I have to unpack the OMF in PT and then export the stems / tracks into Sonar and work from there. Slightly annoying... I'll fire in a feature request.



We could implement clip fades - however they won't necessarily sound exactly the same as what they did in PT since their curves won't match ours exactly. Feel free to log a request however.
 
Did you resolve your issue with video's not loading properly? In our testing switching to the DShow engine behaved identical to earlier versions of SONAR. The code has a few fixes but otherwise is pretty much the same as before. So unless we have a bug you should not see different behavior. A couple of things to check - make sure you are doing the ini setting exactly as outlined in the article. Also keep in mind that you need to reload config defaults and then close and reopen the existing project or restart SONAR. i.e. Once a video is loaded in with the MF engine it won't switch. You can tell which engine is being used for a project by going to the first tab in the video properties. 
If you are still having trouble after this please log a bug report with a link to a sample video that shows this problem. The problem as you describe is very unlikely to be related to codecs on your system since if it worked in X3C it should continue to work in DShow.

Noel Borthwick
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#58
markyzno
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/18 08:09:28 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
markyzno
 
One thing I have noticed as it goes with OMF's in Sonar is that Sonar wont read fades on clips  whereas Pro Tools does. This would be a nice feature in Sonar as currently I have to unpack the OMF in PT and then export the stems / tracks into Sonar and work from there. Slightly annoying... I'll fire in a feature request.



We could implement clip fades - however they won't necessarily sound exactly the same as what they did in PT since their curves won't match ours exactly. Feel free to log a request however.
 
Did you resolve your issue with video's not loading properly? In our testing switching to the DShow engine behaved identical to earlier versions of SONAR. The code has a few fixes but otherwise is pretty much the same as before. So unless we have a bug you should not see different behavior. A couple of things to check - make sure you are doing the ini setting exactly as outlined in the article. Also keep in mind that you need to reload config defaults and then close and reopen the existing project or restart SONAR. i.e. Once a video is loaded in with the MF engine it won't switch. You can tell which engine is being used for a project by going to the first tab in the video properties. 
If you are still having trouble after this please log a bug report with a link to a sample video that shows this problem. The problem as you describe is very unlikely to be related to codecs on your system since if it worked in X3C it should continue to work in DShow.




To be honest Noel I just rolled back to X3c as that was working perfectly for me (I love X3c), so when i'm in the mood for a good ole thorough tinker and I dont have a project on I'll move on to D again and report back my findings.

I did do the above amends to the .ini file yesterday to no avail I'm afraid and until the export options are a bit clearer for the video export I am pretty reluctant to switch away from my workflow of using Premiere to remarry my audio with the picture to send to clients.

As far as the clip fades were concerned and the OMF, what I was talking about was an editor sends me an embedded OMF exported from Final Cut Pro, Sonar opens the OMF just fine but doesnt read the fades on the audio clips whereas Pro Tools does. This is mission critical to me as usually the dialogue tracks amount to hundreds of clips and if I just used Sonar I would have to re-implement all these fades on the clips which takes hours and hours. Sonar reading fades on clips after unpacking an OMF would be immensely useful.

Sorry if I came across a bit gnarly yesterday but I was pretty dissapointed in the update. Its nice to see Sonar moving towards video but I feel its a bit half baked for my professional needs at present. of course I would be more than happy to test X3D further but only when I havent got a project on the go.

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Sound Design on IMDB --
 
#59
Splat
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Re: Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps 2013/12/18 08:18:08 (permalink)
So as far as I can see (as an outside observer) there are no reproducible bugs at present I guess...

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#60
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