Video in X3d - To my fellow Post production Peeps

Dont expect much!
 
Firstly I have tried using both video engines.....as per here http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/reader.aspx/2007013354
 
My Thoughts....
 
1. I used to be able to import MOV's no problem (codecs on my system), I now cannot.
 
2. Video now exports (yay!) whereas before we had weird errors and even upon success would inflate a 200mb video file to 12gb or more. But, dont get too excited! Upon export the video is left with missing frames and a blocky picture (this was tested on a H264 1920x1080 on both video engines)
 
3. I am not willing to go and test the WMV route as nearly all my clients are Mac based (groan) and that option is useless to me, maybe some of you pop pickers will have better luck with WMV or the You tube options?

3. I am vastly MEH! about this, I was expecting something a bit better than just switching the engine and the Bakers hoping for the best, how much this has been tested I really dont know but it 100% seems to me that although their heart is in the right place with these "video" features that its a half baked attempt to get anywhere near PT and for this I am gutted....I was expecting so much more. I didnt have a problem with X3c so I am going to have to roll back to that since now X3d wont load up half my video projects anymore (I'm a professional Sound Designer)...Gosh I am glad that I got my latest batch of deliverables out this morning!! 

4. No AAF support, this would have been amazing, I have requested this....but hey ho.

5. I am now seriously gutted as foolishly I didnt create a restore point so am dreading rolling back to how I had my workflow going before.

6. I love this software and have been waiting SO LONG for Sonar to come up with something that at least works on importing and exporting video for those of us in the movie post production industry and I have to say I give this a big fat zero out of ten :(

A Sincere "Better luck next time bakers"

...sighs
 

This is seriously disappointing news :(
I'm on X3b still, I skipped 'c' out of stability fears - so you'd recommend not upgrading to 'd' if I plan to use video playback to work to picture?  Video export isn't an issue for me...
Was really hoping for some post-friendly video features... is there anything in 'd' aside from the switch to a different engine?  Sliding or trimming video clips?  Output to Matrox or similar?
I've got a restore point set so I'm almost curious to tempt fate ;)
 

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Re 1.  I'm not sure how you are making that assumption. I will quote our documentation.
SONAR has a new Media Foundation-based video engine, which includes enhanced performance for high-definition video and better format support, including H264, MPEG-4, AAC, GoPro Cineform/Protune, and many QuickTime formats (in X64 as well).
 Video import enhancements
SONAR can import the following video formats:
• AVI
• MPEG-2
• MPEG-4/ H.264
• QuickTime (encoded as H.264/ .m4v or MPEG-4 only)
• Windows Media
 
So in fact X3D will import quicktime files both in X64 and X86. This was impossible using the prior engine since the Quicktime SDK is not supported on x64. This in itself is a huge enhancement. I tested quicktime import using Apple's sample quicktime files from from http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1425 and the first five listed files opened for me (no audio from the 3GP files)
We now load all these files except for sorenson and the mpeg2 file. The 3GPP files load video but not audio. SONAR X2 or earlier versions cannot load ANY of these files. This is a huge improvement especially since they load under X64 as well.
 
2.  I posted a response here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2951663
 
3. There is absolutely no need to roll back to X3C. X3D supports both the DX and Media Foundation engines. There are a few legacy formats that Media foundation doesn't support out of the box since Windows doesn't supply the newer codecs. If you need to use those you can easily switch back to the old DirectShow engine which is fully supported. This is described here:
http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/reader.aspx/2007013354
 
4. No AAF - It isn't supported currently out of the box in Windows. You will need to buy a 3'rd party Media foundation compatible codec to do that.
 
5.  See 3

Shall we get into a friendly fight about this?
 
I Use SONAR EVERYDAY for Sound Design Professionally.......

QT after various codecs installed and god knows how many tweaks on my system with things like QTPro and Klite...MOV's worked, fluently and flawlessly within Sonar X1, X2 and X3c

X3d simply DOES not load my old video projects in MOV H264, I now get a small scrambled video view. Audio plays fine.

Upon using the bitrate calculator H264 DOES NOT encode correctly in X3d, the frame rate is skipping and the picture is pixelated.
 
Now, I am sure it may work for you guys testing and some your test environments but it simply does not work for me. Thats why I have to roll back.

I am merely sharing my experience thus far with X3d and it hasnt been pretty.

My workflow personally, will go back to using Sonar as a very amazing Audio DAW and using Premiere to handle video.

Just read it now, Noel posted while I was responding to the OP...
I'll give 'd' a go, worst case scenario I can roll back to 'b'!

CakeAlexS
Did you read Noels post at all?

I did, tested and doesnt work...could just be me...
 
BUT...I bloody well hate it when Sonar tell me it does work when it doesnt. Obviously I would need to test this on various systems to give a full and rounded opinion but on my very capable system Noels comments do not work. Simple.

I am going to have to roll back, I cant have MOV H264 not working on my system as it was before.

But, having said that, alot of peeps will have different systems and different codecs etc so will maybe have alot more joy than I.

markyzno..I suspect the codec paks you installed may be causing a conflict.  MOV H264 definitely works in x3d.  I have tested various forms from files encoded with ADobe media encoder, soerenson, native dslr footage and camcorder files direct from card.  All played smoothly.  One of the things I have encountered with codecs and part of the reason i stopped installing codec paks is that programs sometimes get confused which version of conflicting codecs to use.  Sometimes they default to the one you want, sometimes to one that works but gives inferior results and sometimes they jus tstop working like what you seem to be encountering.  Not trying to diminish your results, but I suspect that is where your problem likely lays.

mark..not sure if you want to go through the bother, but I would try first uninstalling all the codec paks and doing a fresh install of x3d.  If you have premiere you likely have all the codecs you will likely need other than high end specialty codecs you would need to purchase anyway.  One of the hazards of workarounds is that they tend to need rebuilding when the core element changes.

One of the first things I did was try video in Sonar X3d Pro. I have a camera that shoots in mov and is H264. It loaded find and played great. I should say it loaded rather quickly even though its a long movie. Thumbnails showed nicely too. I have no complaints with Sonar and video. 
 
 

I'm not seeing any problems with import and playback, but people should probably do some tests with HD export in MP4 format. The OP's comments about a blotchy picture (regardless of bitrate) are true for me too. System is clean of third party codecs.

StepD I ran into that problem too.  SO far for me, the solution was to manually enter in a higher bitrate.  Oddly, I could not confrim whether botrate was accepted because when I hit the encode option button again it went back to default settings.  However, if I entered a higher bitrate ( I used 15000000) it exported a file that was not blotchy

Biscuits
John, do you get a black frame flash when you stop/start the video?  Just trying to see if this is something specific to my system - thanks!

Yes there is a very quick black flicker almost instant. I don't see it as a problem. 
 
I also did a quick export and the movie played fine in a media player. No blockyness. 

OK, I work in Sonar/Picture everyday like markyzno and I can confirm some of what he says.  My old video files will not load or playback.  Clients usually send me Quicktime files,  I drop 'em into Vegas, cut them down to 10-15 min sections, spit out an MPEG 1 and get to work.  Now in X3d the video my client sent me will playback (a QT file that never before would work in Sonar).
 
The video playback engine does look and feel better, but it does not playback everything it use to.  For me this is a quickfix.  I have saved all the old Vegas files, so I just need to re-render picture files under a new format. I'll have to experiment with different formats to see what works best.      

Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Yeah that's caused by a behavior in MF when stopping and starting video. I agree its annoying. We'll report it to Microsoft and see what we can do to alleviate the issue. The default bitrate is arbitrary and will need to be adjusted for high res videos. We'll try and make the defaults better for the next update. Our priority for this update was to get the basics of MF functional, which was a huge task in itself. 

 
Cool, thanks Noel!  Glad to know it's being worked at, I figured it must be something to do with the new MF engine...

Gawd - I try to avoid QuickTime like the plague. It's a worse design than anything Microsoft ever put out.

I pulled a mov file into Sonar and exported it. With default settings it shrunk in size considerably and looked as good as I would have hoped for a video that compressed.
 
At higher settings it's as good as the original.
 
Noel: Thanks for the calculator. That's going to be a big help!!
 
And does anyone have a link for where you can buy the

Noel You will need to buy a 3'rd party Media foundation compatible codec to do that.

?